Am I on the right path to a new solar set up?

Hi Guys, new to solar but want to get solar soon to help offset my last $609 electric bill. I want grid tied with the ability to sell back to the grid if I make excess (sell back is allowed with my power co) and battery backup on everything except the big things like the main 3.5 ton A/C (I also have an 18K mini split I want on back up) oven, dryer and hot water heater.

My roof doesn't allow for the largest array but may be enough. I am in a subdivision and have no room to ground mount. My electric usage ranges from 1442kwh in January to 3200kwh in August/September.

I have been in contact with signature solar and had one of their quotes but have decided I think I will need more panels and am willing to up the budget.

One of my requirements is that no electronics are mounted outside. The Florida heat and humidity will shorten the life span of micro-inverters and optimizers mounted at the panels. I will give up some efficiency to not have to worry about parts on the roof going bad in a few years.

My signature solar quote consisted of 19 Solarever 455 watt panels and hardware, the EG4 18KPV all in one inverter and 3 EG4 Lifepower4 batteries. I want to keep electronics as simple as possible and use an all in one. I also may want to wait for the new EG4 PowerPro wall mount battery(s).

I think I will need to add solar to the front of my roof to meet my needs,

I will build the system however it need to be to pass but ultimately I want 2 panels in the house for back up simplicity. A main panel that my grid feeds and has all the large items I don't want on battery back up and then that panel will feed into the 18KPV and its output would feed another panel that has the rest of the house. If I generate enough PV it will back feed to the first panel and help power those items and hopefully have enough to back feed the grid. When the grid goes down the 18KPV should automatically disconnect back feeding the grid which would also disconnect the large electrical items I don't want on battery back up.

Am I on the right track? Is there any other equipment I should be looking at or avoiding? Thanks

Typically Roof top mounted PV will mean you need Rapid shut down = Tigo optimizers are often the solution to this.
you can literally 'forget about' getting 3200kWh/month with 19 panels.
PVWatts shows for 8.6kW array set in Tampa Florida, at due south, 26-degree angle you can expect 1100kWh per month, less if those trees in the pic cause any shading.
To get 3200kWh/mth you need to triple the PV.
Some of the guys from your state have commented that permits were 'not easy' and things like roof mounts in a subdivision may be harder than you expect. Better ask your insurance agent what they need as well.
I am a big supporter of solar, and not trying to pour cold water on your plans, but the reality is, you will likely be limited by several things that will result in being able to cut your bills by 1/3, likely nothing available to export given your monthly use vs the area for PV you have available. Just saying.

OffGridForGood said:

Typically Roof top mounted PV will mean you need Rapid shut down = Tigo optimizers are often the solution to this.
you can literally 'forget about' getting 3200kWh/month with 19 panels.
PVWatts shows for 8.6kW array set in Tampa Florida, at due south, 26-degree angle you can expect 1100kWh per month, less if those trees in the pic cause any shading.
To get 3200kWh/mth you need to triple the PV.
Some of the guys from your state have commented that permits were 'not easy' and things like roof mounts in a subdivision may be harder than you expect. Better ask your insurance agent what they need as well.
I am a big supporter of solar, and not trying to pour cold water on your plans, but the reality is, you will likely be limited by several things that will result in being able to cut your bills by 1/3, likely nothing available to export given your monthly use vs the area for PV you have available. Just saying.

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I did not think I was going to be able to produce enough solar to cover my entire usage but I thought it might be at least half.

I thought that the rapid shutdown was build into the EG4 18KPV?

SonicXtasy said:

I did not think I was going to be able to produce enough solar to cover my entire usage but I thought it might be at least half.

I thought that the rapid shutdown was build into the EG4 18KPV?

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yes it can activate the RSD but you need something at the roof level to actually recieve the signal and shut off the source of the DC power within (1-foot?) of the array perimeter. This is why optimizers are so common with roof top solar. It makes a simple and easy way to control the DC circuits.

Sonic, it seems you have a good grasp of the concepts. You could consider panels on the east and west sides. Panels are cheap. And in Florida, you are consuming power all day. Plus, your decision to incorporate batteries could help even out your usage, assuming the software allows. Its pretty complicated these days. Any thread about the EG4 or Sol Ark will reveal that.

Conceptually, in a classic 1:1 net metering, it doesn't matter WHEN you produce, only that you produce. So even inefficient east or west panels can be helpful if they are cheap and produce. West panels are actually beneficial to the utility, as they produce more during peak loads in late afternoon.

But the future will be TOU (time of use) -- perhaps you already have it. Its going to get more common. And frankly, it makes sense. Passing the REAL cost of electricity on to the consumer makes the consumer start making more intelligent choices. So any system you build today should have an eye towards that option down the road.

Also, when roof mounting, make sure you have enough room for fire fighters on side and at top (generally a code requirement, always a good idea).

I am still a little confused what I need rapid shutdown at the roof panels for? I assumed the 18KPV would disc from grid if the grid goes down.

Some of those trees may need to come down. I plan on trees growing about a foot a year.

I assume your house is in the center and the panels are rendered in.

The tree on the south side of the house is already shading the roof by where the panels are. The trees on the west side are already growing over the building.

I don't know how that will cut into production. Shading gets more extreme in the winter months with the sun not so high in the sky.

SonicXtasy said:

My roof doesn't allow for the largest array but may be enough. I am in a subdivision and have no room to ground mount. My electric usage ranges from 1442kwh in January to 3200kwh in August/September.

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Depending on the power plan and net metering, 8 kw of panels could help out quite a bit. Have you gotten a power production estimate or have you ran it through a simple link like in my signature block or PVWatts?

SonicXtasy said:

My signature solar quote consisted of 19 Solarever 455 watt panels and hardware, the EG4 18KPV all in one inverter and 3 EG4 Lifepower4 batteries

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Who gave this quote? I'm assuming a singature solar authorized installer. Just curious.

SonicXtasy said:

I am still a little confused what I need rapid shutdown at the roof panels for? I assumed the 18KPV would disc from grid if the grid goes down.

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The rapid shutdown is for disconnecting the power generated from the PV panels themselves so there isn't any energized wiring in case emergency crew has to cut through roofing/house during a fire. Without that the PV panel wiring would still be energized all the way to the EG4 18kPV. It has nothing to do with the grid.

There's also no reason why you couldn't put panels on the north facing roof as well. An 8kW array on the north roof may produce over 1000kWh per month during the summer months.

SonicXtasy said:

Hi Guys, new to solar but want to get solar soon to help offset my last $609 electric bill. I want grid tied with the ability to sell back to the grid if I make excess (sell back is allowed with my power co) and battery backup on everything except the big things like the main 3.5 ton A/C (I also have an 18K mini split I want on back up) oven, dryer and hot water heater.

My roof doesn't allow for the largest array but may be enough. I am in a subdivision and have no room to ground mount. My electric usage ranges from 1442kwh in January to 3200kwh in August/September.

I have been in contact with signature solar and had one of their quotes but have decided I think I will need more panels and am willing to up the budget.

One of my requirements is that no electronics are mounted outside. The Florida heat and humidity will shorten the life span of micro-inverters and optimizers mounted at the panels. I will give up some efficiency to not have to worry about parts on the roof going bad in a few years.

My signature solar quote consisted of 19 Solarever 455 watt panels and hardware, the EG4 18KPV all in one inverter and 3 EG4 Lifepower4 batteries. I want to keep electronics as simple as possible and use an all in one. I also may want to wait for the new EG4 PowerPro wall mount battery(s).

I think I will need to add solar to the front of my roof to meet my needs,

I will build the system however it need to be to pass but ultimately I want 2 panels in the house for back up simplicity. A main panel that my grid feeds and has all the large items I don't want on battery back up and then that panel will feed into the 18KPV and its output would feed another panel that has the rest of the house. If I generate enough PV it will back feed to the first panel and help power those items and hopefully have enough to back feed the grid. When the grid goes down the 18KPV should automatically disconnect back feeding the grid which would also disconnect the large electrical items I don't want on battery back up.

Am I on the right track? Is there any other equipment I should be looking at or avoiding? Thanks



View attachment 166829

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You could save thousands if you don't use batteries and just go grid-tied, and spend more on panels. I like the EG4 18k but if you don't really need it, you could use microinverters and save about half the cost of the system.

SonicXtasy said:

I am still a little confused what I need rapid shutdown at the roof panels for? I assumed the 18KPV would disc from grid if the grid goes down.

Click to expand...

Overzealous firefighter committees established the requirement after one of them got a tickle in their boot on top of Target and Enphase said "pssst, let's make a deal".

SonicXtasy said:

Hi Guys, new to solar but want to get solar soon to help offset my last $609 electric bill. I want grid tied with the ability to sell back to the grid if I make excess (sell back is allowed with my power co) and battery backup on everything except the big things like the main 3.5 ton A/C (I also have an 18K mini split I want on back up) oven, dryer and hot water heater.

My roof doesn't allow for the largest array but may be enough. I am in a subdivision and have no room to ground mount. My electric usage ranges from 1442kwh in January to 3200kwh in August/September.

I have been in contact with signature solar and had one of their quotes but have decided I think I will need more panels and am willing to up the budget.

One of my requirements is that no electronics are mounted outside. The Florida heat and humidity will shorten the life span of micro-inverters and optimizers mounted at the panels. I will give up some efficiency to not have to worry about parts on the roof going bad in a few years.

My signature solar quote consisted of 19 Solarever 455 watt panels and hardware, the EG4 18KPV all in one inverter and 3 EG4 Lifepower4 batteries. I want to keep electronics as simple as possible and use an all in one. I also may want to wait for the new EG4 PowerPro wall mount battery(s).

I think I will need to add solar to the front of my roof to meet my needs,

I will build the system however it need to be to pass but ultimately I want 2 panels in the house for back up simplicity. A main panel that my grid feeds and has all the large items I don't want on battery back up and then that panel will feed into the 18KPV and its output would feed another panel that has the rest of the house. If I generate enough PV it will back feed to the first panel and help power those items and hopefully have enough to back feed the grid. When the grid goes down the 18KPV should automatically disconnect back feeding the grid which would also disconnect the large electrical items I don't want on battery back up.

Am I on the right track? Is there any other equipment I should be looking at or avoiding? Thanks



View attachment 166829

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I am working on the design of my solar roof-mount as well. I am considering just using the inexpensive growatt grid-tie inverter so I can take advantage of net metering. All-in-one is great, but that 18kpv unit is about 4x the cost, so that is why I'm considering a cheaper way of getting solar going.
What I may do, is run the critical circuits passing through a hybrid off-grid inverter (a 6500w sungold unit I have), so that way if the utility goes down I can still utilize battery backup and hybrid inverter to power things.

hwy17 said:

Overzealous firefighter committees established the requirement after one of them got a tickle in their boot on top of Target and Enphase said "pssst, let's make a deal".

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Easy to say if you've never been one of those firefighters. It might make more sense to you if you were viewing the situation from that roof, with water raining down on you and people's lives and home at stake, instead of from your sofa. Overzealous my ____!

Madcodger said:

Easy to say if you've never been one of those firefighters. It might make more sense to you if you were viewing the situation from that roof, with water raining down on you and people's lives and home at stake, instead of from your sofa. Overzealous my ____!

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I will look out for the tragic stories pouring in from the rest of the world where they don't use rapid shutdown.

Here I'll start the memorial wall for firefighters killed by PV array DC:
[No results]

hwy17 said:

I will look out for the tragic stories pouring in from the rest of the world where they don't use rapid shutdown.

Here I'll start the memorial wall for firefighters killed by PV array DC:
[No results]

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Spoken like a true sofa surfer who likely hasn't done anything more than gawk as they drive past a fire. Have a little respect for the people who would go up on that roof, and into a burning building to save your hide, even if you did something colossally stupid to cause the fire (which happens far too often, usually by someone with your attitude about safety and common sense regulations). "Anti-solar enthusiast" describes you well. So sorry you are modestly inconvenienced by safety rules designed to protect the lives of people who are just trying to keep others from dying or losing their home. Poor baby. Put on your big girl panties and think about others for a change. I can put up with a lot on a forum, but when you just spout nonsense complaining about rules designed to protect firefighters working in tough conditions, game on.

Do you support single family home fire sprinkler requirements too? Or is it complicated?

hwy17 said:

Do you support single family home fire sprinkler requirements too? Or is it complicated?

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I support requirements that protect people, especially the people called upon to wade into a bad situation in an attempt to save others. If you show me the logic and data that shows fire suppression systems in single family homes do that, I'll be all for it. I honestly don't know the answer to that. I do know I don't want to be on a roof with several hundred volts of electricity and a hose spraying water.

Madcodger said:

If you show me the logic and data

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Firefighters do not have a great track record of actually employing data. See: 20-30 years of poisonous couches that in the end evidence shows don't appear to have saved anyone at all. Or the giant sham of fire scene investigation "science".

My goal here was to help point out the need for reasonable laws and regs designed to protect fire fighters. Hundreds of volts of electricity and water being sprayed at high volume and pressure, along with a need for speed and turnout gear that limits mobility, make for a bad combination. Not that you'd ever know it, of course, but it ain't exactly the best of situations. Most decent people with common sense "get it" without too much trouble once they think about it. And most don't throw stones at the people that'll be pulling their sorry rear out of a building or a wreck, should the need arise.

Now and again, though, a person runs across someone who just doesn't care about any of that, and instead wants to whine about being forced to spend a few extra dollars to protect first responders. There's no point in arguing with you any more. Goodness knows the firefighters in your town don't deserve you, but I bet they'd be there to help, despite your lack of support. Says a lot about both types of people, as I see it. Happy trolling.

Madcodger said:

My goal here was to help point out the need for reasonable laws and regs designed to protect fire fighters. Hundreds of volts of electricity and water being sprayed at high volume and pressure, along with a need for speed and turnout gear that limits mobility, make for a bad combination. Not that you'd ever know it, of course, but it ain't exactly the best of situations. Most decent people with common sense "get it" without too much trouble once they think about it. And most don't throw stones at the people that'll be pulling their sorry rear out of a building or a wreck, should the need arise.

Now and again, though, a person runs across someone who just doesn't care about any of that, and instead wants to whine about being forced to spend a few extra dollars to protect first responders. There's no point in arguing with you any more. Goodness knows the firefighters in your town don't deserve you, but I bet they'd be there to help, despite your lack of support. Says a lot about both types of people, as I see it. Happy trolling.

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I'm not trying to propagate a flame war but now I am curious. Is there real world data for this actually being a problem?

Osmethne said:

I'm not trying to propagate a flame war but now I am curious. Is there real world data for this actually being a problem?

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Rapid Shutdown? What do you want? A body count? Exactly how many firefighters do you want to have electrocuted before you have enough "real world data"?

Solar panels produce electricity, often at hundreds of volts. Fires happen at any time of day or night. So, it's pretty darn certain you're going to have fires on sunny days. Without rapid shutdown, you're asking people to climb around on a roof with those energized solar panels, with hoses filled with high pressure water. Have you ever even touched a fire hose? The couplings leak. Often. A lot. Add to that the water that is probably being sprayed by other firefighters, perhaps from the other side of the building, who may not even realize you're on that part of the roof. Water is absolutely everywhere at a fire scene. It takes just a tiny little nick in a wire, or a lose connection, and suddenly you have the makings of a very tragic data point for your "real world data".

Rapid shutdown was developed by people who have to deal with the dangers of a fire scene, not an "overzealous committee", in response to a very real danger. I do not know the stats on how many firefighters have been injured or killed by electricity produced by energized solar panels, and neither I nor anyone anyone else needs to know that to create common sense rules designed to protect people. I hope it's zero, and stays there. Thankfully, a group of people, presumably with actual experience and certainly with common sense, got together and said, "Ummm... Electricity... Water... People working close to the electrical source with that water, in very challenging circumstances... Oh, wait...".

If you don't want to pay for rapid shutdown, then either keep your project small (not needed on sheds and such) or go with a ground mount. Or, don't go crying if the fire dept says, "Nope - We're not putting someone up there - No rapid shutdown." That's what the rule should be, in my humble opinion.

We're way off topic from the OP's original question, but I didn't think it wise to let a ridiculous comment about the lack of need for rapid shutdown go unaddressed. I suggest those who want to oppose it start another thread where it can be discussed.

To the OP, you might want to look at how you can decrease your energy usage first. I started by putting a Micro air easy start on our non inverter heat pump. That decreased our usage by about a third right there. Next we changed our hot water heater to a tankless. This might be changed back when we go solar with a timer to turn off the heaters at night when we go solar. Not enough juice in the inverter to run a 24kw tankless heater. We are all electric so next is changing to induction cooking to decrease energy again. Make sure your home is tight. Good seals around doors, no leaks around windows etc... we are at almost half of the energy we used to use. It will help with the sizing of your system. Hope this helps.

Madcodger said:

Rapid Shutdown? What do you want? A body count? Exactly how many firefighters do you want to have electrocuted before you have enough "real world data"?

Solar panels produce electricity, often at hundreds of volts. Fires happen at any time of day or night. So, it's pretty darn certain you're going to have fires on sunny days. Without rapid shutdown, you're asking people to climb around on a roof with those energized solar panels, with hoses filled with high pressure water. Have you ever even touched a fire hose? The couplings leak. Often. A lot. Add to that the water that is probably being sprayed by other firefighters, perhaps from the other side of the building, who may not even realize you're on that part of the roof. Water is absolutely everywhere at a fire scene. It takes just a tiny little nick in a wire, or a lose connection, and suddenly you have the makings of a very tragic data point for your "real world data".

Rapid shutdown was developed by people who have to deal with the dangers of a fire scene, not an "overzealous committee", in response to a very real danger. I do not know the stats on how many firefighters have been injured or killed by electricity produced by energized solar panels, and neither I nor anyone anyone else needs to know that to create common sense rules designed to protect people. I hope it's zero, and stays there. Thankfully, a group of people, presumably with actual experience and certainly with common sense, got together and said, "Ummm... Electricity... Water... People working close to the electrical source with that water, in very challenging circumstances... Oh, wait...".

If you don't want to pay for rapid shutdown, then either keep your project small (not needed on sheds and such) or go with a ground mount. Or, don't go crying if the fire dept says, "Nope - We're not putting someone up there - No rapid shutdown." That's what the rule should be, in my humble opinion.

We're way off topic from the OP's original question, but I didn't think it wise to let a ridiculous comment about the lack of need for rapid shutdown go unaddressed. I suggest those who want to oppose it start another thread where it can be discussed.

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A simple no would have sufficed.

Sorry for not getting back to this thread for a while, I have been busy. I did opt for the moment to exclude the batteries (will add next year) and got a quote from signature solar for the 18KPV and 15-16K of PV (I could go more but I never want to push the inverter to its max and risk reducing its life span). They quoted 34 455 watt panels with 34 Tigo rapid shut down modules which brings me to a few questions.

1) Do I need a module on each panel??? Can't I just have 1 for each string? The last thing I want is 34 electronic boxes baking in the Florida sun and rain.

2) Do the rapid shutdowns turn off the panels when the grid goes down or only when an emergency switch is engaged? I want some power when the grid goes down which is partially why I opted for the 18KPV because it has its own grid disconnect.

3) Do I need the Tigo Cloud connect? I do not want any of the system online. Call me paranoid but if there is a planned grid attack it is not out of the realm of possibility that they could push a firmware update that could crash the PV system just before crashing our grid.

4) Down the road how would I add more PV if I wanted? I don't want to add more directly to the 18KPV because it is already to its max and I would not be able to add enough extra PV to justify a 2nd 18KPV.

Here is the revised parts list they quoted me.

Here is a quote for the grid-tied EG4 18kPV system. Let me know if there are any changes or adjustments
that you would like made to the quote.
Let me know if you have any questions.

Unit Price Qty Extended

EG4 18KPV Hybrid Inverter | All-In-One Solar Inverter |
18000W PV Input | 12000W Output | 48V 120/240V Split
Phase | EG4-18KPV-12LV
1602002

5,599.00 x 1 5,599.00

Solarever 455W Split-Cell Mono PERC Solar Panel ( Silver )
1545006

254.97
-13.07
241.90

x 3 764.91 -39.21 725.70

Solarever 14.11kW Pallet - 455W Split-Cell Mono PERC
Solar Panel ( Silver ) | Full Pallet ( 31 ) - 14.11kW Total
1545006-31

7,499.00 x 1 7,499.00

50ft 10 AWG Copper PV Wire | Black and Red
1534011

60.80 x 2 121.60

100ft 10 AWG Copper PV Wire | Black and Red
1534025

104.50 x 2 209.00

Stäubli MC4 Male and Female Connector
1577005

3.04 x 6 18.24

Wire Ratchet and Crimp Tool | MC4TM-Style
1577004

20.89 x 1 20.89

Stäubli Open End Spanner Set
1577003

9.49 x 1 9.49

End Clamp for Mini Rail | 35mm Silver 1.50 x 16 24.00

1557003

Mid Clamp for Mini Rail | Fits All Silver
1557010

1.50 x 60 90.00

6in Asphalt Mini Rail With Flashing Roof Mount for Panel |
Silver
1557012

10.50 x 76 798.00

PV 2 Wire Management Clip | 50 Pack
1503008

11.88 x 2 23.76

Tigo TS4-A-S Module Level Rapid Shutdown | 15A,
700W,1500V UL/1000V IEC | MC4, 1.2M Cable
1594012

37.32 x 34 1,268.88

Tigo Cloud Connect Advanced (CCA) Outdoor Kit | Tigo
TAP, Din Rail PS, Outdoor Enclosure
1594002

310.47 x 1 310.47

Subtotal $ 16,757.23
Discount -39.21
Shipping Select at Checkout
Total $ 16,718.03