Research ideas for 1 MW power station using propane generators and solar.
- Thread starter Millennium
- Start date
A Tesla Megapack will run you about $400/kWh before the IRA incentives and is 3.6-4MWh with inverters integrated in a ~26' shipping container. There are smaller competitors (at least in terms of mindshare) that should be less capital outlay. I would also see if your utility has any grant money available for energy storage. Not to sound like a broken record, but the best time/value you will spend is talking with your utility, the problems you face, and finding ways that you can solve your problems for mutual benefit.
Things like a Bloom Energy fuel cell might make sense for your needs as well (as stupid as I might think they are). Coupling natural gas microturbines with an absorption chiller might also make sense. It all comes down to the detailed needs and challenges. Mixing and matching might give you a great balance as well-- 300kW of PV, 300kW(electric) of microturbine with 100 Tons of absorption chillers, and a 300kW fuel cell as an example.
Whatever you decide, please do report back here though!
Millennium
New Member
I have, multiple times, over the years. The guy I had the most contact with is no longer working for them.
He was telling me about all their problems; he basically verified our suspicions about their issues with distribution and generation.
I have sent multiple emails, to multiple individuals, requesting an update on a service upgrade, and no one has responded.
I'm frustrated. I'd say more, but I'd prefer not too, so I don't come off as bitter.
Just know that they are not regulated, like other utilities, so they do as they please.
I'll let you know what direction we decide; lots of options on the table right now.
I have a buddy that designs and implements ups systems for the major internet systems, and I can pass on your generator requests… send me message with your digits.
How much are you paying per kWh ? How many motors and power rating of each? It may be cheaper to buy VFD for each motor so phase voltage misbalance will no longer be an issue.
See if you can find an account representative or senior planning engineer, FWIW. Indicate that power quality is bad enough that you are prepared to move off grid if your system reliability cannot be improved. If it doesn't work... time to get off grid.
DIYrich
Solar Wizard
Sol-ark makes a 60k 3-phase unit. You can parallel up to 12 for 720kW. Maybe make two 540kW plants and divide your site.
Don't know how to make 800v battery for it. If you can, charge the batteries from the grid, and it gives you a double conversion UPS to clean up grid power, and reduce cost of generators to stand-by.
You need enough batteries to store the solar produced during the day for use during the other 24 hours. Commercial net metering is probably much worse than residential. You can do a cost/benefit of storing solar vs running off grid (via double conversion) to optimize battery sizing. You can always add more bateries.batteries. BTW, you are looking at 1,200 amps at 800v to produce 1mW. I think you are looking at 1,200 LF300 cells per hour of storage. About $180,000
Don't know how to make 800v battery for it. If you can, charge the batteries from the grid, and it gives you a double conversion UPS to clean up grid power, and reduce cost of generators to stand-by.
You need enough batteries to store the solar produced during the day for use during the other 24 hours. Commercial net metering is probably much worse than residential. You can do a cost/benefit of storing solar vs running off grid (via double conversion) to optimize battery sizing. You can always add more bateries.batteries. BTW, you are looking at 1,200 amps at 800v to produce 1mW. I think you are looking at 1,200 LF300 cells per hour of storage. About $180,000
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OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
ESS for a 1MW system!...need a couple of lakes close together with a thousand feet of elevation difference between them.
Solar pumps water to upper lake, hydro turbine(s) create the power needed.
AZ - maybe water is not an ideal solution.
Solar pumps water to upper lake, hydro turbine(s) create the power needed.
AZ - maybe water is not an ideal solution.
curiouscarbon
Science Penguin
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2020
- Messages
- 3,025
rocks on rail carts?
with obligatory mention of gravity batteries being not optimal in every situation
That power company seems flaky and some may be leaving a sinking ship. There’s the possibility that the company model is to take the income and distribute it as wages without any consideration for maintenance or upgrades. When the system totally collapses, the phone won’t answer and you’ll find the office door ajar with not a soul in sight, corporation records gone. Ran into the ground. Personally I’d take care of yourself with an off grid solution because if I’m right it’ll be a long time till your community has reliable power again.
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Millennium
New Member
$180K for one MWh off batteries is much lower than my initial estimate but getting 12 hours of battery power would require $2.2MM (based on your numbers). It might work. Does your battery cost estimate include all the necessary accessories, besides inverters and solar panels?
I can't wait till a cheaper solution replaces LiFePo.
Millennium
New Member
I have thought of this. I know a very good working system, but I'd need a mountain to store water at elevation.
republicmachine
New Member
About 10 years ago I was in Detroit and we took a ride out to the old Packard plant that closed in the late 1950's. In one of the buildings, it was called the powerhouse and a guy we were with explained that some old large factories had their own power stations that made their own electricity. I was immediately hooked on the idea of being independent from the man. Years later I started playing with solar but between then I have been looking at steam, turbines, gasifiers, biogas, incinerators, and other ways to make power. Asynchronies induction motors and all that. If I owned a large company with a 30k per month electric bill, I'd be building my own electric system. Small towns still have power statins many powered by GM train diesel engines run on Natural Gas. After years of trying to understand how to make factory/small town sized power, it seems that having multiple ways to generate electricity is the way.
So I'd start with what is the most reilable and cost effective. Probably a steam turbine and new certified boiler run off natural gas and or trash incinerator, I'd piggy back a huge diesel genset unit and run it on some type of bio or recycled oil which I'd process in house gaining partners at other businesses to collect said oil. I'd then have wind and solar on the roof pumping into my own grid. You'd have to employ a team of people to make this happen and get engineering in house, a team of legal to make sure you were epa and maybe get some grant money and subsities to pay for it then you could sell a bit of this power back to the surrounding company and neighbors. Tie it all in. Like establishing your own little civilization. Start watching youtube videos on old small town and factory powerstations and modern steam units. Make it full carbon neutral. It'd be very cool. You could even turn your land into fields and process grain into fuel. So many directions. Start with a 500k budget to get reliable boiler units and power now.
Side note. I love solar and wind. It's certainly easy for a small percentage of homes and small businesses to gain independence but the problem is that it simply doesn't scale up well. The cost and after life problem far outweighs the current system we are using. What do to with 100 acres of pannels after they're cooked. Well you've got a big problem. And how reliable and trouble free will it be over its life. Compared to other more heritage options. Steam runs somethings for a 100 years continuous with nothing more than pig fat smothered on it every week.
So I'd start with what is the most reilable and cost effective. Probably a steam turbine and new certified boiler run off natural gas and or trash incinerator, I'd piggy back a huge diesel genset unit and run it on some type of bio or recycled oil which I'd process in house gaining partners at other businesses to collect said oil. I'd then have wind and solar on the roof pumping into my own grid. You'd have to employ a team of people to make this happen and get engineering in house, a team of legal to make sure you were epa and maybe get some grant money and subsities to pay for it then you could sell a bit of this power back to the surrounding company and neighbors. Tie it all in. Like establishing your own little civilization. Start watching youtube videos on old small town and factory powerstations and modern steam units. Make it full carbon neutral. It'd be very cool. You could even turn your land into fields and process grain into fuel. So many directions. Start with a 500k budget to get reliable boiler units and power now.
Side note. I love solar and wind. It's certainly easy for a small percentage of homes and small businesses to gain independence but the problem is that it simply doesn't scale up well. The cost and after life problem far outweighs the current system we are using. What do to with 100 acres of pannels after they're cooked. Well you've got a big problem. And how reliable and trouble free will it be over its life. Compared to other more heritage options. Steam runs somethings for a 100 years continuous with nothing more than pig fat smothered on it every week.
Who is John Galt?
Otherwise very good conversation.
Also look up the big natural gas generators. If you are lucky enough to be near natural gas lines (they don't even need to be super big), you can just feed them natural gas and they crank out power. Lots of big units used in the oilfield to power electronic submersible pumps (ESPs). Company I work for has ~150 ESPs in the Permian basin sucking down 400-500 kW each. Many ran off generators. Some natural gas (burning natural gas that would otherwise be flared off), some diesel. They're designed for high reliability.
Let's run through the math for a Cat CG127-12 TA engine (used for electric generation and gas compression).
400 kW at 480V is 100% capacity so you'd need 2-3.
Fuel consumption at full load = 4906 SCF per hour (this shows at 905 BTU/cf, which is a bit below what usually comes out of pipelines). Going to use 1000 BTU/cf, which is a bit more realistic and easy for math purposes, so that's 4906/(1000/905) = 4439 SCF per hour x 24 = 106558 SCF per day. That's 107 Mcf (oil/gas uses M for thousand) per day. Current henry hub spot price is $3.07 per MMBTU. Since we used 1000 BTU per CF, that convienently results in the same price per MMBTU as MCF. So you're using 107 MMBTU * 3.07 $/BTU = $328.49 per day of gas. You're also generating 400 kW x 24 hours = 9600 kWh. That's a cost of $0.034 per kWh (3.4 cents per kWh).
You won't get spot pricing, but you'll get close to it at 100-300 mcf/day. Amortize the generator cost over X years and you're good to go. These generators are also commonly available for rental/lease if you want to test things out.
Also the efficiency goes up slightly as you back off from full load. If you run 3 of these at 83% each (3x333 kW = 1 MW), you'd be near peak efficiency.
Here's a list of CAT engines in this product line - https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/power-systems/oil-and-gas/land-production-generator-sets.html
Edit: there is a lot of interest in this area to burn natural gas to generate electricity in the oilfield to power bitcoin miners. The gas would otherwise be flared. Up to you to decide if that's a valuable venture or not (hint: the mined bitcoin has 2-3x the value of the generated electricity).
Also look up the big natural gas generators. If you are lucky enough to be near natural gas lines (they don't even need to be super big), you can just feed them natural gas and they crank out power. Lots of big units used in the oilfield to power electronic submersible pumps (ESPs). Company I work for has ~150 ESPs in the Permian basin sucking down 400-500 kW each. Many ran off generators. Some natural gas (burning natural gas that would otherwise be flared off), some diesel. They're designed for high reliability.
Let's run through the math for a Cat CG127-12 TA engine (used for electric generation and gas compression).
400 kW at 480V is 100% capacity so you'd need 2-3.
Fuel consumption at full load = 4906 SCF per hour (this shows at 905 BTU/cf, which is a bit below what usually comes out of pipelines). Going to use 1000 BTU/cf, which is a bit more realistic and easy for math purposes, so that's 4906/(1000/905) = 4439 SCF per hour x 24 = 106558 SCF per day. That's 107 Mcf (oil/gas uses M for thousand) per day. Current henry hub spot price is $3.07 per MMBTU. Since we used 1000 BTU per CF, that convienently results in the same price per MMBTU as MCF. So you're using 107 MMBTU * 3.07 $/BTU = $328.49 per day of gas. You're also generating 400 kW x 24 hours = 9600 kWh. That's a cost of $0.034 per kWh (3.4 cents per kWh).
You won't get spot pricing, but you'll get close to it at 100-300 mcf/day. Amortize the generator cost over X years and you're good to go. These generators are also commonly available for rental/lease if you want to test things out.
Also the efficiency goes up slightly as you back off from full load. If you run 3 of these at 83% each (3x333 kW = 1 MW), you'd be near peak efficiency.
Here's a list of CAT engines in this product line - https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/power-systems/oil-and-gas/land-production-generator-sets.html
Edit: there is a lot of interest in this area to burn natural gas to generate electricity in the oilfield to power bitcoin miners. The gas would otherwise be flared. Up to you to decide if that's a valuable venture or not (hint: the mined bitcoin has 2-3x the value of the generated electricity).
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How Much Investment Do You Need For A Solar Farm? | Coldwell Solar
When it comes to alternative investment options to pick from outside of bonds and stock, the solar farm is one of the popular choices. We say this because it also...
coldwellsolar.com
From looking at this page it appears a 1MW plant would produce 1440MWh a year average, and profit around 43K, so the 4hour average daily production would likely cut your usage by 1/3 to 1/2 depending on operation times.
If you contacted tesla you might get a MWH of battery modules for another million... you might get enough from solar to eliminate your energy draw from the grid entirely...
Heck...
Add another MW of production and get PAID by the power company to produce power that will stabilize THEIR grid...
Assuming of course ya have 16 or so acres available...
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I dono, and I shrug ?
Millennium
New Member
Thanks for this.
I was able to speak with our local NG supplier. Nearest main is about 11 miles from my location.
Rep. quoted me an approx. $4MM design and build out, which was a bit pricey. I could justify a quarter of that cost.
Propane can be delivered to my location, but it's about 4x the cost, I believe, for the same energy density.
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Millennium
New Member
I've got hundreds of unused acres, real estate is not an issue. My problem is that the power company does not "buy" back, but they'll take it for free.How Much Investment Do You Need For A Solar Farm? | Coldwell Solar
When it comes to alternative investment options to pick from outside of bonds and stock, the solar farm is one of the popular choices. We say this because it also...
From looking at this page it appears a 1MW plant would produce 1440MWh a year average, and profit around 43K, so the 4hour average daily production would likely cut your usage by 1/3 to 1/2 depending on operation times.
If you contacted tesla you might get a MWH of battery modules for another million... you might get enough from solar to eliminate your energy draw from the grid entirely...
Heck...
Add another MW of production and get PAID by the power company to produce power that will stabilize THEIR grid...
Assuming of course ya have 16 or so acres available...
A friend of mine recommended a hybrid system as well, where we produce about 50% of our own power, through solar and batteries, and use the grid for the balance of power needed. We'll see, stil researching solutions.
I need to look into Tesla MW batteries. They seemed expensive on the consumer side, although they may have better deals for commercial users.
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It's a quote from the book atlas shrugged
In the book it's akin to saying that's the way it is...
That's crazy, when their production is weak and unstable that they wouldn't buy from. You.
Millennium
New Member
They can purchase more energy, but they're cheap.
Grid design and distribution has been a nightmare.
If they kept up with distribution over the years, they could have bought more power now from other energy providers and pass it on to the consumers.
One good piece of news is that I finally found the email to the Power Manager; I've sent him an email and received a reply.
He'll look into our situation on Monday. I'm hopeful this conversation could help resolve some of our issues.
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shadowmaker
Solar Addict
Sunsynk 1MW battery is currently 99k£, including shipping container, climate control and fire extinguisher.
Yep that's a bit far. For $4MM there are plenty of other, better options, including giant batteries and solar/wind to match. Not to mention the price of natural gas, even though there are supply/demand factors to keep the price relatively low, can be highly variable.
Batteryhookup.com has plenty of large-ish batteries in the $100/kWh range. I'd imagine if you contact them and say you need a few MWh, they'd be very interested in helping.
Realistically, and I haven't done the math on costs, in my mind the best option would be to build a battery with a couple hours of storage. Plan to use the grid to feed the battery. Use stackable/big inverters to do constant inversion from the battery. Get a couple propane gens to fire up if the outage is longer than X hours. Solar/wind to assist with not purchasing power from the grid.
Just did a search on google for "1 mwh battery" and a surprising number of results popped up, with prices and everything! $400k-ish, which is $400/kWh. The question is - how much do you want to DIY this to save $$$.
50ShadesOfDirt
Solar Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2021
- Messages
- 514
Not being an EE, which is what I think you need, and furthermore, one who specializes in power plant design, I'd pursue the following:
1. implement large (diesel, propane) generators, of the class needed to meet power requirements
- this gets you going right now
- gens in this class are super reliable (1800rpm)
2. over time, replace (or at least augment) fuel-driven generation with solar-driven
- start to reduce fuel costs & generation periods with solar
- fuel generation is now there as a backup to solar, or extra capacity for high demand
It would take an EE to understand all the power requirements of your facilities, and one versed in power plant design to come up with a small private power generation scheme, to make sure it was all done right.
I have seen many large industrial firms augment their standard power-consuming practices with solar (and wind, where feasible).
What we do on a very small scale allows us to dump the power utilities ... equipment has gotten to that point, and we are our own power company now. I get to worry about all kinds of backups to the backups; luckily, I like doing this. I'd imagine this can scale up to 1MW, but an EE will need to guide that (IMHO) ... I'd start researching to see who else is dumping the utility companies, and how they are going about it.
Hope this helps ...
1. implement large (diesel, propane) generators, of the class needed to meet power requirements
- this gets you going right now
- gens in this class are super reliable (1800rpm)
2. over time, replace (or at least augment) fuel-driven generation with solar-driven
- start to reduce fuel costs & generation periods with solar
- fuel generation is now there as a backup to solar, or extra capacity for high demand
It would take an EE to understand all the power requirements of your facilities, and one versed in power plant design to come up with a small private power generation scheme, to make sure it was all done right.
I have seen many large industrial firms augment their standard power-consuming practices with solar (and wind, where feasible).
What we do on a very small scale allows us to dump the power utilities ... equipment has gotten to that point, and we are our own power company now. I get to worry about all kinds of backups to the backups; luckily, I like doing this. I'd imagine this can scale up to 1MW, but an EE will need to guide that (IMHO) ... I'd start researching to see who else is dumping the utility companies, and how they are going about it.
Hope this helps ...
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