50A fifth-wheel upgrade game plan for full-time RV living, boondocking primarily. Thoughts appreciated!

[ill.behavior]

Hello, fellow nerds! First time posting here. I apologize in advance for the length, but I'm hoping that I can get some insight from veteran RVers and possibly give ideas to people scratching their heads as much as I have when considering electrical upgrades.


Background.
I recently purchased a 2009 Jayco Eagle Fifth Wheel (37ft.) for my first venture into full-time RV living. She'll be pulled by my 2014 Ford F-450, so no issues there. Before you ask, I went big because it was the only way my partner would agree to the lifestyle (and I can't say she's too off-base, given we both have a dog and mine is 90lbs). The rig is in overall good condition for its age, with only minor wear and tear, so it was a great deal at $12,000 USD. I did, however, have to travel from Portland, OR to Wisconsin in January to pick it up. It was my first time towing a fifth wheel, and driving a rig totaling nearly 60ft through blizzards was a quick way to get my sea legs

Anyway, I'm entering the life because, well, I can. I'm an event photographer/videographer, and I got sick of setting up/breaking down camp at festivals. I'm getting older, and I want to be comfortable. I'm also very handy, so on-the-road fixes don't scare me. Besides, my partner has a few different chronic illnesses that make it hard for her to travel conventionally, and one of them will potentially shorten her life by 30-50 years, so having our home with us seems the best way for her to see the country.


Conundrum.
My long-term goal is to implement a system that will power the entire rig autonomously, with minimal self-consumption. All of my long-nights online tell me that the most efficient system will be centered around a 24V Victron Multiplus-II (2x120), pull at least 2kW of solar up top, and store upwards of 10kWh in LiFePO4 down below. I'm sure I'm not alone in devising such a system only to be let down by budget constraints. Which brings me to my budget: basically nothing, at the moment. I am selling off what should net me somewhere between $6,000-$9,000, and I do have some gigs on the schedule. However, I have a number of necessary expenses to make the rig more robust, considerable debt, and I will need cash for emergencies.

Here's probably the most relatable aspect of all of this: I need to be financially efficient in how I prioritize upgrades, given that I have no guarantees on future income. My current priorities (non-negotiable) are upgrading the equalizers, adding wireless internet (likely Starlink), replacing my TV shocks, renovating the interior to fit our needs, and replacing the dead battery.

That last list item is where I keep getting hung up. I have two 3500W inverter generators with a 50A parallel kit for AC, but I obviously need at least one battery. The rabbit hole I've gone down is:

probably should get LiFePO4 since I want it long-term > better to purchase all my energy storage at once to eliminate variance in cell voltage/time > converter/charger not optimized for lithium, needs solution > solution needs to handle significant pass-through current on AC > costs make more sense if off-set by solar > solar is cheaper on 24V or 48V with smaller/fewer MPPT controllers > step-down needed for 12V loads > cheap solutions have high self-consumption and need more solar...

On and on until I've re-talked myself into an expensive system I can't afford. There's also the reality that I have yet to live full-time off-grid, and what if we have to give it up in a year? Sure, I can get very cheap components, but the other reality is that I have a LOT to do before we set sail in (hopefully) a month.

What's more, our max critical loads will be very minimal, as we plan to chase 70F weather, most of our electronics run on DC, and my computer is extremely efficient (Mac Mini M1 only consumes 39W of AC at it's peak and 6.8W at idle, monitor consumes 70W, drives consume >14W). We don't plan on using the microwave much, my partner doesn't use high-power beauty products, T/V watching will be minimal, and most of my tools are battery-powered.



Solution!

Two 12V Victron Super Cycle AGM batteries upfront, either 60Ah or 100Ah. This solves several problems:

1. I couldn't justify traditional AGM batteries that may suffer an occasional emergency 100% DoD off-grid and go flat, a non-issue with Super Cycles.

2. No need to spend time/energy finding and implementing a solution to charge lithium chemistry, pass through high AC current, or re-wiring my electrical. Just drop them in and let the Progressive Dynamics converter/charger do its thing. The rig even came with extra battery cables for running two in parallel.

3. Refraining from investing in lithium today allows me to monitor my generator-power consumption to better calculate my needs, keep an eye on the rapidly-growing sector before choosing an ecosystem for companies that will realistically be around for warranty coverage, and take advantage of lowering prices down the road.

4. Purchasing two identical batteries at once would allow me to re-wire for 24V down the road if the time comes. Further, two batteries gives me redundancy in case one fails far away from civilization.

5. I won't have to deal with cheap batteries that may or may not handle significant abuse.

6. If I treat them well, they will offer great backup storage for 12V loads on an otherwise 24V/48V system upon upgrade.

7. A max cost of <$650 leaves me with plenty for a slow implementation of the dream system and an emergency expense buffer.


So, any thoughts? Tips? Directions to the nearest psych ward?

 

[time2roll]

As long as you will be running the air conditioner with a generator the rest can be relatively modest. Although I doubt 200 ah of AGM is really sufficient. A 12v 2000w inverter will run all small items (computers etc) and one large item (microwave, coffee, hair drier). Use the existing converter to charge them as needed until 500-800 watts solar can be put up. I would really encourage going straight to lithium battery as everything works better. Still need 300 to 400 AH.

I assume hot water and fridge run on propane. Pare it down to a single generator and accept running a single air conditioner when needed.

Not sure a monster system will be needed at all. Time will tell.

No psych ward, this is a common and ordinary upgrade.

 

[ill.behavior]

Thank you for the thoughtful response!

You are correct that hot water and fridge are on propane, though I know my fridge has the option to run on electric when needed. We really won't be using the microwave much, if at all. Campfires and propane stove should handle our reheating needs, as well as our coffee. I've estimated our AC electronics consumption to be 500W max (if computer and T/V are on at the same time) and small devices are all negligible amounts of DC. I already have the two generators, but only plan to use both in parallel when we find ourselves in a predicament and really need both A/C units on top of other power needs.

Because I don't need to be on my computer for more than a few hours a day currently and we won't be watching T/V much, I figure I can skip the inverter purchase and power any AC loads with the generators for now. They're pretty efficient. That way, I might be able to avoid purchasing anything I don't need and go straight to the MP when I'm ready.

My thinking now is that the money may be better spent on a quality MPPT, since almost everything will run on DC and I can already make pure sine AC when I need it.

 

[jberger]

I would not spend the money on AGM batteries, especially the Victron batteries. Lead is dead, even the cheapest LFP batteries would be better in the long run.

Remember you will only be able to use 50% DoD and if you are drawing heavily from the battery, you will not even get 50% of the listed capacity. And the charging requirements Bulk/Absorb/Float means you will be running the genset longer to charge AGM than you will need with LFP. That additional time will add up every time you need to charge. And that charging pattern will really impact how much solar you need day one with AGM as you need to top them off every use.

LFP is the best way both today and long term, the cheap LFP are probably less money than the AGM's you are looking at too.

We all want to buy the best, but you also have to be able to afford it. There is NOTHING wrong with building a cheap system, learning all about it and living with it for a while before you spend big bucks. In fact, you may find you don't need all of the fancy stuff after all. If you need some victron blue in your setup, start with their shunt to monitor the batteries, it's top notch.

In terms of efficiency, you can easily solve efficiency with battery capacity. It's not nearly as important to get it all perfect if you can just add amp hours.

If your built in converter can't support lithium, just turn off the charging and use an external charger instead.

I'd go with a cheap inverter, lots of battery and then add solar as you can going forward. If you do this right, you might only need to carry 1 generator too.

 

[Browneye]

A portable 'solar generator' for powering 120V items without generator is another option. You can always recharge it with the generator when running it for other things.

I did a very modest upgrade from FLA to LFP, some solar and a new charger, 600W inverter. The latter keeps the electronics charged, run a box fan, charge ebike batteries.

I was so intrigued by the new Ecoflow Delta units I bought the 'mini' one - now wifey's hair dryer and the Mr. Coffee will run off it, even the microwave for quick reheating. A couple of portable solar panels will recharge it each day. Super simple and easy - they now have them with LFP cells in them. I also like that I can take it anywhere, and it will run a 12V cooler for extended periods.

We also run the genset for AC, but if it's really hot we leave, or don't go. LOL I don't mind running the gen - it has 300 hours on it in 17 years, but won't leave the coach for a day-trip with it running - we generally have a couple of cats along, and if the CO alarm in the master popped it would just scream 'till we got back. Or if the gen failed for some reason the cats would cook.

It takes a LOT of juice to run a RV roof air - mine pulls 1700 watts when cooling. If you want AC on battery power consider a window unit or split system - they're a LOT more efficient.

 

[HRTKD]

Going with the Victron Multiplus II 24/3000 and two AGM batteries wired in series will allow you to get into a 24 volt system that can be upgraded later to LiFePO4. The Multiplus has a built in battery charge that will allow you to ditch the OEM AC-DC converter.

However, there are likely 12 volt items in your fifth wheel that require more amps than a simple 24-12 converter can handle. Check to see how many amps the landing gear can draw. That will dictate what you need for a 24-12 step down converter. As a first start, the Victron Orion 24-12/70 will probably work as long as your landing gear draws no more than 70 amps.

 

[dcg9381]

I've been a "full time" RV person several times.

My long-term goal is to implement a system that will power the entire rig autonomously, with minimal self-consumption. All of my long-nights online tell me that the most efficient system will be centered around a 24V Victron Multiplus-II (2x120), pull at least 2kW of solar up top, and store upwards of 10kWh in LiFePO4 down below. I'm sure I'm not alone in devising such a system only to be let down by budget constraints. Which brings me to my budget: basically nothing, at the moment. I am selling off what should net me somewhere between $6,000-$9,000, and I do have some gigs on the schedule. However, I have a number of necessary expenses to make the rig more robust, considerable debt, and I will need cash for emergencies.

How well this works really depends on how you're going to use the RV. If you're in Texas, you'll be on AC all summer and the power demands are substantial. If you're north of midwest in the summer, you're just potentially looking to keep batteries charged and moderate inverter going, you're not going to have a problem. It's the use cases "in the middle". I'm of the opinion that more battery storage is better, so design for that within weight and storage dimension limits.

The bottom line is that WHEN you're in a case where you need to run AC (one or more) for substantial periods of time the amount of battery storage required to do this is massive. It's simply so much cheaper to keep a 30A 120V Champion dual fuel generator on hand and use that to power the RV when you start to need massive amounts of power (and air conditioning).

And be aware that this is a $12k RV. And dumping another $6-9k in it, it's still going to be a $12k RV. Trust me, I just bought a Mobile Suites (older, used) which has at least 1.5KW of solar, 6 brand new lead acid 6V batteries, inverter, etc in it. That stuff did not net them a dime more with an RV of that vintage.

 

[time2roll]

If running the A/C near 24/7 due to heat it is probably lower cost to get a spot in an RV park or campsite with electric power.

 

[dcg9381]

If running the A/C near 24/7 due to heat it is probably lower cost to get a spot in an RV park or campsite with electric power.

The grid is always cheaper.

 

[ill.behavior]

I would not spend the money on AGM batteries, especially the Victron batteries. Lead is dead, even the cheapest LFP batteries would be better in the long run.

Remember you will only be able to use 50% DoD and if you are drawing heavily from the battery, you will not even get 50% of the listed capacity. And the charging requirements Bulk/Absorb/Float means you will be running the genset longer to charge AGM than you will need with LFP. That additional time will add up every time you need to charge. And that charging pattern will really impact how much solar you need day one with AGM as you need to top them off every use.

LFP is the best way both today and long term, the cheap LFP are probably less money than the AGM's you are looking at too.

The usable capacity was what I was trying to solve by going with the Super Cycle model, but I definitely hear you on the inefficiency in charging them and the power curve. At $311 for the 100Ah, I thought that going with a superior AGM might be more reliable than a hit-or-miss, cheap LFP that doesn’t have low-temp protection or bluetooth. But I agree that it might be worth the risk at twice the capacity for the same cost.

We all want to buy the best, but you also have to be able to afford it. There is NOTHING wrong with building a cheap system, learning all about it and living with it for a while before you spend big bucks. In fact, you may find you don't need all of the fancy stuff after all. If you need some victron blue in your setup, start with their shunt to monitor the batteries, it's top notch.

I was all set to go with a smart shunt until I saw that Bluetooth-embedded LFP’s offer far more insight and diagnostics. Though I think I would have to build from raw cells to get that capability at a reasonable price.

In terms of efficiency, you can easily solve efficiency with battery capacity. It's not nearly as important to get it all perfect if you can just add amp hours.

If your built in converter can't support lithium, just turn off the charging and use an external charger instead.

I'd go with a cheap inverter, lots of battery and then add solar as you can going forward. If you do this right, you might only need to carry 1 generator too.

I don’t think I realized I can turn of the charger and still use the converter on shore power for DC loads without re-wiring. In terms of LFP charging, I wouldn’t want the hassle of connect the portable charger each time, so I’d have to find a way to route it from an AC outlet and into the battery compartment. Any additional advice or things to be aware of in that use case?

 

[ill.behavior]

A portable 'solar generator' for powering 120V items without generator is another option. You can always recharge it with the generator when running it for other things.

I did a very modest upgrade from FLA to LFP, some solar and a new charger, 600W inverter. The latter keeps the electronics charged, run a box fan, charge ebike batteries.

I was so intrigued by the new Ecoflow Delta units I bought the 'mini' one - now wifey's hair dryer and the Mr. Coffee will run off it, even the microwave for quick reheating. A couple of portable solar panels will recharge it each day. Super simple and easy - they now have them with LFP cells in them. I also like that I can take it anywhere, and it will run a 12V cooler for extended periods.

We also run the genset for AC, but if it's really hot we leave, or don't go. LOL I don't mind running the gen - it has 300 hours on it in 17 years, but won't leave the coach for a day-trip with it running - we generally have a couple of cats along, and if the CO alarm in the master popped it would just scream 'till we got back. Or if the gen failed for some reason the cats would cook.

It takes a LOT of juice to run a RV roof air - mine pulls 1700 watts when cooling. If you want AC on battery power consider a window unit or split system - they're a LOT more efficient.

I actually had thought of purchasing a house battery for DC and another for portable use. I even started looking at components to build a DIY portable solar generator, but couldn’t justify having one battery dedicated to that use before having at least two dedicated house batteries.

I recently came across the new Dr. Prepare LFP with the DC hub that looks like it could be a good solution, though. I know Will tore down the old 100Ah version and it was terrible, but the new one seems to be a lot more promising at $400 with low-temp protection and a built in MPPT for up to 100W. It has tested well and would be a simple way to get into solar, but I don’t like that it can’t be wired in series.

My biggest A/C is 15,000 BTU and runs at 1500W continuous, which would only be 50% load on one generator or about 30% across both, so should be efficient enough for my needs when it really needs to cool down the rig. Plus the trailer is insulated for four-seasons, so I’m looking forward to testing how well it controls the temperature.

 

[ill.behavior]

Going with the Victron Multiplus II 24/3000 and two AGM batteries wired in series will allow you to get into a 24 volt system that can be upgraded later to LiFePO4. The Multiplus has a built in battery charge that will allow you to ditch the OEM AC-DC converter.

Definitely what I was thinking, though I don't think I can justify the MP until I take care of other essential upgrades.

However, there are likely 12 volt items in your fifth wheel that require more amps than a simple 24-12 converter can handle. Check to see how many amps the landing gear can draw. That will dictate what you need for a 24-12 step down converter. As a first start, the Victron Orion 24-12/70 will probably work as long as your landing gear draws no more than 70 amps.

I had two thoughts on this when brainstorming the step-down:

1. Use a simple converter that will charge one or two 12V batteries (which could come from the transition from 12V to 24V), and the 12V's could handle any loads that the converter couldn't.

2. Hang onto my converter/charger and use it to power 12V DC loads.

 

[ill.behavior]

I've been a "full time" RV person several times.



How well this works really depends on how you're going to use the RV. If you're in Texas, you'll be on AC all summer and the power demands are substantial. If you're north of midwest in the summer, you're just potentially looking to keep batteries charged and moderate inverter going, you're not going to have a problem. It's the use cases "in the middle". I'm of the opinion that more battery storage is better, so design for that within weight and storage dimension limits.

The bottom line is that WHEN you're in a case where you need to run AC (one or more) for substantial periods of time the amount of battery storage required to do this is massive. It's simply so much cheaper to keep a 30A 120V Champion dual fuel generator on hand and use that to power the RV when you start to need massive amounts of power (and air conditioning).

And be aware that this is a $12k RV. And dumping another $6-9k in it, it's still going to be a $12k RV. Trust me, I just bought a Mobile Suites (older, used) which has at least 1.5KW of solar, 6 brand new lead acid 6V batteries, inverter, etc in it. That stuff did not net them a dime more with an RV of that vintage.

We're really planning on following 70-degree weather as much as possible, so I'm hoping to avoid much use of the A/C units. The long term goal of being able to run the A/C on solar+LFP is really just a dream for now. The rig definitely has enough roof real estate to handle an array of that size, but I won't have the budget for a good while. For now, I have the dual 3500W generators to handle the full 50A service when I need it.

As for putting the money into electrical, I'm planning on keeping the original components and migrating any upgrades to a future rig if and when I sell. As it stands, the trailer is in really great shape, so don't think I'll be selling any time soon. I plan to make repairs and upgrades as necessary to suit my needs. I'd rather have a cheap, sturdy frame that I can work on than an expensive, new rig any day. I don't see the point in paying the premium for pre-installed components that I can do myself.

 

[HRTKD]

1. Use a simple converter that will charge one or two 12V batteries (which could come from the transition from 12V to 24V), and the 12V's could handle any loads that the converter couldn't.

2. Hang onto my converter/charger and use it to power 12V DC loads.

Either will work. I'm using option 1. I retained a small-ish lead acid battery to start the on-board generator. Large surge amps from the starter that I didn't want my LiFePO4 battery bank to have to deal with.

 

[ill.behavior]

Either will work. I'm using option 1. I retained a small-ish lead acid battery to start the on-board generator. Large surge amps from the starter that I didn't want my LiFePO4 battery bank to have to deal with.

Okay good to know that it works! Thanks for the help.

 

[RoadTurtle]

Recently "finished" my system.

Right or wrong, I went with 12 batteries in parallel. my suggestion, if you want 24v, then buy 24v batteries. Pay close attention to wiring.
Multiplus II 2x 120v is most excellent.
Pay really really really close attention to how panel are laid out on the roof. Shadows will kill your solar output, by a huge amount. Raise the panels up, and/or push them as far away from roof crap as you can to avoid shadows. For example, 600w on the sun side in the morning, will be over 3x energy collected over non sun side. I set up with two controller, one drivers side, one pass side.
Leave room for expansion, both in batteries and panels.
Buy good quality wire. I bought the big gauge stuff from professional company and got marine grade. Smaller wires, I crimped myself with a ratcheting crimper.
Get Microair EasyStart for aircon, it makes a HUGE difference.
I went with 24v panels on a 12v system, Great idea, however, if I add another panel (which is why finished is in quotes), I'm at risk of exceeding SCC max voltage.
expecting aircon to run without "aid" will require a pretty $$$BIG$$ battery bank and matched with sufficient solar. My expectations are that if I need to run aircon, my generator will help solar keep batteries charged and supplement multiplus as needed.