A hydro electrical system idea

[KHunt0812]

Hi, my name is Krista and I currently an researching and learning about the different renewable energies. Where I am located (which is souther Indiana) and the placement of my house on my property (which is in a valley) wind isnt my best main option. And so far i havent found an good diy ideas for solar panels. My goal is to run my house completely with no grid. I do have a spring (which stays dry most of the time) that leads to two main creeks which always have water (but sometimes not heavy flowing water). So i would like to create a system with a hydroelectric turbine as main source with one wind turbine and a few solar panels all tied in together supplying all my electrical needs. I have not gotten far on this project however. I keep getting stumped on which design and materials to use . Since my creek is situated at a level lower than my house on the property, i dont believe i have any head or can create any either. So I think I will have to go with a archimedean screw turbine. Does that seem the right way to go? Next im trying to create this system from all the stuff I have and get regularly. Because I do not have the funds to buy a setup and I live on a farm and my grandparents and I tended to keep all sorts of things; for you never know when you might need it or can use it. So I have all kinds of things & stuff to use just not sure whats best. When it comes to the actual turbine, I suspect ill use a vehicle altinator, a treadmill, or washer motor. Any better ideas to get an outcome with the most watts? I have determined that with my location and on average, a 2000 square foot home will consume 30 KWH daily and to be safe 11,000 KWH a year. Finaly I know I want to be able to use any electrical device I have at any given time and be able to but i guess I need to incorporate batteries also in the system; maybe for those times when the creek isnt flowing so well. Which i currently use a couple vehicles batteries for power needs. Though i wish there was a better alternative. I will soon however invest in a deep cell one. So thats my hodgepodge of electrical situation. So please give any advise, knowledge, and experience you can . Thank You for your time and your thoughts! They are appreciated.

 

[Hedges]

I mostly hear that wind doesn't work at all. Maybe can give some power during storms, but generally a bad deal.

If you can get enough head, Pelton wheel is small and economical. I understand pipe has to be relatively large diameter to limit pressure drop.
There are other types for low head, high flow. Search the forum. "archimedean screw", I'd have to look up. But I did see low head hydro posted here.

Can't believe you can't find an site for PV panels. They are extremely reliable and very low cost way to make power. We've been buying the both new and used by the pallet in the $0.15 to $0.25/W range. With good sun, 6kW or so of panels ($1200 worth) would make 30 kWh/day. Cheap enough you can over-build by a factor of several, making up for overcast and winter sun angle.

Batteries help a lot. If you have hydro 24/7, then automotive starting batteries for surge might be all you need. People like lithium for cycling, but with hydro, AGM may be sufficient upgrade from starting. If you can limit DoD to 15% nightly, then AGM or FLA is viable even if only charged by PV. If deep cycling every night, LiFePO4 is more cost effective.

I like SMA inverters, and there are still deals to be had on Sunny Island. Midnight Classic can support turbines. If you do wind, need a "clipper" to prevent over-voltage, also a dump load.

Since you're so low on funds, difficult to do the size system you're talking about except by scrounging. Maybe you can pick up a used generator and build blades. I saw a video of a guy powering his home with a horizontal-shaft washing machine, had mounted a pelton wheel. But PV panels really can be cheap - Santan has some cracked backsheet 250W panels for $20 apiece, that's $0.07/W. Not sure what shipping from arizona costs.

 

[pollenface]

I think a treadmill motor is a good start, they are often rated at 180-220v DC so would likely make usable power at low rpm, it's not a long term solution though as the brushes in the motor will eventually wear out (not sure how long they last)

I got an old treadmill that someone was throwing away, stripped it down just for the 180vdc/900w motor

 

[Hogheavenfarm]

An an old Maytag direct drive washer washer has a decent F&P motor that can easily be rewired to produce different voltage/current strategies. I have seen them used in a "paddle wheel" undershot style on small streams, (geared that would also work for a car alternator), but as for supplying 30kwh, likely not. Solar is the only thing that would easily accomplish that. My wind turbine typically only runs from November to April, and rarely in the summer unless there is a storm. Even during the winter months it requires a 12-15 mph wind to get started. Be aware, an unloaded turbine will spin quite easily (and that is mostly what you see on videos), once hooked into batteries, it has much more resistance to starting and turning. Mine will easily spin up 75 volts at 6 mph unloaded, not so much wired in to the batteries.

 

[KHunt0812]

I mostly hear that wind doesn't work at all. Maybe can give some power during storms, but generally a bad deal.

If you can get enough head, Pelton wheel is small and economical. I understand pipe has to be relatively large diameter to limit pressure drop.
There are other types for low head, high flow. Search the forum. "archimedean screw", I'd have to look up. But I did see low head hydro posted here.

Can't believe you can't find an site for PV panels. They are extremely reliable and very low cost way to make power. We've been buying the both new and used by the pallet in the $0.15 to $0.25/W range. With good sun, 6kW or so of panels ($1200 worth) would make 30 kWh/day. Cheap enough you can over-build by a factor of several, making up for overcast and winter sun angle.

Batteries help a lot. If you have hydro 24/7, then automotive starting batteries for surge might be all you need. People like lithium for cycling, but with hydro, AGM may be sufficient upgrade from starting. If you can limit DoD to 15% nightly, then AGM or FLA is viable even if only charged by PV. If deep cycling every night, LiFePO4 is more cost effective.

I like SMA inverters, and there are still deals to be had on Sunny Island. Midnight Classic can support turbines. If you do wind, need a "clipper" to prevent over-voltage, also a dump load.

Since you're so low on funds, difficult to do the size system you're talking about except by scrounging. Maybe you can pick up a used generator and build blades. I saw a video of a guy powering his home with a horizontal-shaft washing machine, had mounted a pelton wheel. But PV panels really can be cheap - Santan has some cracked backsheet 250W panels for $20 apiece, that's $0.07/W. Not sure what shipping from arizona costs.

Thank you for your thoughts and the tip on the discounted solar panels!

 

[KHunt0812]

I think a treadmill motor is a good start, they are often rated at 180-220v DC so would likely make usable power at low rpm, it's not a long term solution though as the brushes in the motor will eventually wear out (not sure how long they last)

I got an old treadmill that someone was throwing away, stripped it down just for the 180vdc/900w motor

Ya i had seen a couple videos talking about how decent the motors are to use. Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[KHunt0812]

An an old Maytag direct drive washer washer has a decent F&P motor that can easily be rewired to produce different voltage/current strategies. I have seen them used in a "paddle wheel" undershot style on small streams, (geared that would also work for a car alternator), but as for supplying 30kwh, likely not. Solar is the only thing that would easily accomplish that. My wind turbine typically only runs from November to April, and rarely in the summer unless there is a storm. Even during the winter months it requires a 12-15 mph wind to get started. Be aware, an unloaded turbine will spin quite easily (and that is mostly what you see on videos), once hooked into batteries, it has much more resistance to starting and turning. Mine will easily spin up 75 volts at 6 mph unloaded, not so much wired in to the batteries.

Thank you, thats a good point and one ill keep in mind about being underload , hadnt really thought about that.

 

[McKravitts]

Measure the height diffrence between the top of the water above the little water fall and the top of the water below the fall.
Input your data into the fields on this site. This site is simple physics and determines the potential energy of the water over the height difference.
You can try different flow rates and see if there is a possibility of getting some of your electric needs from a water turbine alone.
I would't plan on more than 50 % efficiency.
From the height we can search for a turbo hydro generator that can be used with your parameters.
There are also formulas for the kinetic energy of water and several hydro turbines that might work for you if you placed one in the creek .
From your pictures it doesn't look like your water is moving very fast except at the fall.
Are you legally able to modify the creek to concentrate flow?

 

[Hogheavenfarm]

A ram pump could move water uphill further to a holding pond, and that way you could increase the head height, but the ram would have to move more or at least the same amount of water than the output pipe would flow.

 

[McKravitts]

A ram pump could move water uphill further to a holding pond, and that way you could increase the head height, but the ram would have to move more or at least the same amount of water than the output pipe would flow.

That’s not a bad idea; she’d basically be leveraging a large flow at low pressure to produce a smaller flow at higher pressure. Assuming she can get the necessary head pressure to drive the ram pump. She could just drive a hydroelectric turbine connected directly off the output of the RAM pump. A barrel could be used as a holding tank to stabilize pressure and produce a more steady flow of electricity.

 

[Warpspeed]

There will be some loss of efficiency at every stage for a ram pump, more complexity for less final output.

Where there is a large flow, and very little drop, a simple undershot water wheel might be the easiest.
If its large enough, it might only turn fairly slowly, but the power will be there, and with a suitable mechanical speed step up should do the job.

The secret to making an efficient speed step up, is to keep all your pulleys/gears as large diameter.
Where you need a fairly large increase in speed, use several stages, to keep all the diameters of the smaller wheels sufficiently large.

 

[McKravitts]

There will be some loss of efficiency at every stage for a ram pump, more complexity for less final output.

Where there is a large flow, and very little drop, a simple undershot water wheel might be the easiest.
If its large enough, it might only turn fairly slowly, but the power will be there, and with a suitable mechanical speed step up should do the job.

The secret to making an efficient speed step up, is to keep all your pulleys/gears as large diameter.
Where you need a fairly large increase in speed, use several stages, to keep all the diameters of the smaller wheels sufficiently large.

That's a great idea if she can get approval from the powers that be.

 

[KHunt0812]

Measure the height diffrence between the top of the water above the little water fall and the top of the water below the fall.
Input your data into the fields on this site. This site is simple physics and determines the potential energy of the water over the height difference.
You can try different flow rates and see if there is a possibility of getting some of your electric needs from a water turbine alone.
I would't plan on more than 50 % efficiency.
From the height we can search for a turbo hydro generator that can be used with your parameters.
There are also formulas for the kinetic energy of water and several hydro turbines that might work for you if you placed one in the creek .
From your pictures it doesn't look like your water is moving very fast except at the fall.
Are you legally able to modify the creek to concentrate flow?

It is a 1 foot drop. I'll check out that site and yes for the most part i believe i can i also own the land on both sides which helps.

 

[KHunt0812]

A ram pump could move water uphill further to a holding pond, and that way you could increase the head height, but the ram would have to move more or at least the same amount of water than the output pipe would flow.

Ive recently see those and different ideas of them being used. I was thinking the same thing; to implement it in the setup.

 

[KHunt0812]

A ram pump could move water uphill further to a holding pond, and that way you could increase the head height, but the ram would have to move more or at least the same amount of water than the output pipe would flow.

Right, i considered just doing a pump stored hydro system but then i was thinking no thats silly when i can do a run of river system but honestly i see the definite pros to it tho

 

[hugocoktail]

For using available materials, repurposing a vehicle alternator, treadmill, or washer motor could work, but it's crucial to ensure they can generate enough power. You might need a few of them to meet your 11,000 KWH annual target. Incorporating batteries is a smart move for backup during low creek flow. Deep-cycle batteries are a better choice for renewable energy systems. Oh, and if you're still curious, you might want to explore the importance of tidal energy. It's another exciting renewable source, and who knows, it might spark some more ideas for your project.