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Agm buildup replacement with lifepo4

frankz66

New Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
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575
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Aci Sant'Antonio Catania
Hi everyone, I have a 440 amp AGM accumulation in good condition, but I would like to replace them with 300 amps lifepo4.

I wanted to ask, if there is a method to leave the lifepo4 batteries by default, at the cut of the panels when the lifepo4 batteries reach a certain voltage, make sure to make the switch with the agm, but this only at night and in case of need. Are there electronic switches that do this? Also how can I load the agm accumulation during the day? The lifepo4 batteries would be 12.8v and the 12v agms.
 
I have actually found that AGM and LFP lithium have very similar voltages on charger profiles, so I just left my two banks (old and new) paralleled together, using a LFP charge profile, and the AGM batteries do fine on it. They've been like that for 2 years now and seem to be doing fine.

Biggest difference between the 2 chemistries (in my opinion) being to not let the AGMs get below 50%, so can set the inverter cutoff voltage to that level (I don't though, I have mine set for low-end shutoff good for good LFP depth-of-discharge), where I just turn off the bridging switch if I was to get close to 50%, but I never get lower than 60% usually.

I've at times advocated both for and against battery chemistry mixing in the past, but my farm-life experiences have shown me again and again that it's not really a big deal if the voltage curves aren't that exact (AGM vs LFP). I want to safeguard the LFP moreso, so I favor having the charge profiles set to LFP optimums...

But as far as keeping banks separate and switching back and forth, there are types of relay / contactor devices that could be set up to trigger fancy switching logic, maybe involving an RPi or something, but it depends on what exactly you are desiring to do, it's all possible.

I have built an RPi before with 3 big contactors in it for switching large loads with a phone app (MyPi), and uses python language, where you could build any type of rules into it for automation.

Ref:

But for now, I prefer to keep more simple though than to try and do fancy switching on my two battery banks.
 
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Charge seperately during the day.

Connect at night with a relay and boost converter with the streetlight function of your SCC.
 
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I have actually found that AGM and LFP lithium have very similar voltages on charge curves, so I just left my two banks (old and new) paralleled together, using a LFP charge profile, and the AGM batteries do fine on it. They've been like that for 2 years now and seem to be doing fine.

Biggest difference between the 2 chemistries (in my opinion) being to not let the AGMs get below 50%, so can set the inverter cutoff voltage to that level (I don't though, I have mine set for low-end shutoff good for good LFP depth-of-discharge), where I just turn off the bridging switch if I was to get close to 50%, but I never get lower than 60% usually.

I've at times advocated both for and against battery chemistry mixing in the past, but my farm-life experiences have shown me again and again that it's not really a big deal if the voltage curves are that exact (AGM vs LFP). I want to safeguard the LFP moreso, so I favor having the charge profiles set to LFP optimums...

But as far as keeping banks separate and switching back and forth, there are types of relay / contactor devices that could be set up to trigger fancy switching logic, maybe involving an RPi or something, but it depends on what exactly you are desiring to do, it's all possible.

I have built an RPi before with 3 big contactors in it for switching large loads with a phone app (MyPi), and uses python language, where you could build any type of rules into it for automation.

I prefer to keep more simple though than to try and do fancy switching on my two battery banks.
Thank you for your information, and I am amazed by your configuration. The only perplexity is given by the fact that the lifepo4 are managed by the BMS etc, so I wonder if the lifepo4 are in parallel with the AGM how does the BMS behave to balance the cells? They are still a principiate so my doubts are lawful even if for other discounted users.
 
Charge seperately during the day.

Connect at night with a relay and boost converter with the streetlight function of your SCC.
Thanks for answering, could you give me some indications or rather an amazon link to make me realize how it is done and how it can be configured? Thank you .
 
Thank you for your information, and I am amazed by your configuration. The only perplexity is given by the fact that the lifepo4 are managed by the BMS etc, so I wonder if the lifepo4 are in parallel with the AGM how does the BMS behave to balance the cells? They are still a principiate so my doubts are lawful even if for other discounted users.

The BMS's balance the LFP cells via the little balance lead wires, so they have no interaction with any batteries paralleled outside the BMS or its cells. The AGM bank and the LFP bank really have no relationship more than a set of 'jumper cable' leads bridging the two sets in parallel.

Mind you, the BMS on a lithium acts like a gateway to the LFP cells, so the two banks are really just two voltages interacting with the other, whichever one has higher voltage than the other just pushes current to the lower bank until the voltages become the same.

I did put a manual switch on the positive wire bridging the two banks together in case I want to split them. It's just as easy to wire some kind of relay / contactor switch there that can be remote controlled if desired. And like Pollenface said, if you want you can have separate charge controllers on each bank if you want for them to charge when separated..

I just found for me in my case, it ain't worth bothering with any fancier stuff, just run the LFP charge curve on the master (LFP bank), and leave them bridged together (AGMs parallled) all the time.

I don't notice any bad side effects. If the AGMs ever become a liability then I can turn off the bridging switch in two seconds, and check on them to see where they settle to.
 
The BMS's balance the LFP cells via the little balance lead wires, so they have no interaction with any batteries paralleled outside the BMS or its cells. The AGM bank and the LFP bank really have no relationship more than a set of 'jumper cable' leads bridging the two sets in parallel.

Mind you, the BMS on a lithium acts like a gateway to the LFP cells, so the two banks are really just two voltages interacting with the other, whichever one has higher voltage than the other just pushes current to the lower bank until the voltages become the same.

I did put a manual switch on the positive wire bridging the two banks together in case I want to split them. It's just as easy to wire some kind of relay / contactor switch there that can be remote controlled if desired. And like Pollenface said, if you want you can have separate charge controllers on each bank if you want for them to charge when separated..

I just found for me in my case, it ain't worth bothering with any fancier stuff, just run the LFP charge curve on the master (LFP bank), and leave them bridged together (AGMs parallled) all the time.

I don't notice any bad side effects. If the AGMs ever become a liability then I can turn off the bridging switch in two seconds, and check on them to see where they settle to.
Ok, would you be able to represent what you wrote through a scheme? I follow you to a certain point considering that I am in my first experiences, but what you write is very interesting because as previously written I would like to buy a lifepo4 and use my agm. It would be much more understandable to me. As long as you have time and desire! Thanks .
 
Ok, would you be able to represent what you wrote through a scheme? I follow you to a certain point considering that I am in my first experiences, but what you write is very interesting because as previously written I would like to buy a lifepo4 and use my agm. It would be much more understandable to me. As long as you have time and desire! Thanks .

Well, I just don't want to advocate as if this is some sort of 'best practice' to mix battery chemistries or anything, that's my disclaimer. A lot of people disagree with the idea of running different chemistries on same bank, and even I have occasionally posted against it in past posts.

On paper it isn't truly optimal, if you compare the discharge curve charts between LFP and AGM specs sheets examples, they do not discharge at same rate on the charts. You're also not supposed to discharge AGM (depth-of-discharge) below 50% or they puke out, where LFP you can take right down to 10-14% and get long life out of them.

I was just saying, in my case, since I really don't care about the fate of my old AGMs as much, but they still have some useful cycles left in them, I simply chose to be a simpleton and hard-bridge them together (with a manual disconnect switch in between). I favor my charge profiles on my charge controllers towards long life on my LFP battery bank, since I paid a lot of money for those cells and for sure want that array to last as long as realistically possible.

And, the charge also being on my old AGM bank keeps them alive for longer (so they are not just sitting in the shop self-discharging), but if I lost them, I would just take them out and dispose of them at a recycler. With that said, my normal stance from a professional point of view is to not mix battery bank chemistries, and not try to integrate them together, for best life on the non-favored bank.

But from my previous experience in the farming industry, sometimes you just work with what you got and not worry about things so much and there is the kind of real world, boots-to-the-ground mentality, I decided to run them together, paralleled, and two years later (they were old batteries before), they still work fine and have not had any issues. I never take my bank down lower the 55-60% state of charge anyways, so I've never hammered on the AGMs too hard. I don't even know how much extra life that bank realistically adds to my system. It does kind of seem like the SoC goes down slower since I connected the AGMs back in.

Since the two banks have a bit different discharge curves, there may be areas in that SoC curve where one bank is a bit of an asset or a liability on the adjacent bank (one bank takes more charge from the other, it's not like a 1:1 ratio throughout the discharge or charge curve).

I just look at it as a way to get a little extra watts on the system (since you already have them), but when they die, just take them out and replace them with LFP.

I don't have any schematics to create here since I'm not good with those kinds of tools. There are lots of other threads (controversial) about mixing chemistries in parallel, so I would encourage you to search here using the search page and read more about it.

I will provide an example here showing some of the varying opinions about it:

I guess all I am saying is that I don't want to say that I am really for or against it, I can understand why some say to never do it, but we don't live in a perfect world afterall, so we sometimes do what seems to work for us at any given time, and in this case it looks to work ok for me on this run, and doesn't seem to have any negative side effects for my system. Individual results may vary though.
 
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Well, I just don't want to advocate as if this is some sort of 'best practice' to mix battery chemistries or anything, that's my disclaimer. A lot of people disagree with the idea of running different chemistries on same bank, and even I have occasionally posted against it in past posts.

On paper it isn't truly optimal, if you compare the discharge curve charts between LFP and AGM specs sheets examples, they do not discharge at same rate on the charts. You're also not supposed to discharge AGM (depth-of-discharge) below 50% or they puke out, where LFP you can take right down to 10-14% and get long life out of them.

I was just saying, in my case, since I really don't care about the fate of my old AGMs as much, but they still have some useful cycles left in them, I simply chose to be a simpleton and hard-bridge them together (with a manual disconnect switch in between). I favor my charge profiles on my charge controllers towards long life on my LFP battery bank, since I paid a lot of money for those cells and for sure want that array to last as long as realistically possible.

And, the charge also being on my old AGM bank keeps them alive for longer (so they are not just sitting in the shop self-discharging), but if I lost them, I would just take them out and dispose of them at a recycler. With that said, my normal stance from a professional point of view is to not mix battery bank chemistries, and not try to integrate them together, for best life on the non-favored bank.

But from my previous experience in the farming industry, sometimes you just work with what you got and not worry about things so much and there is the kind of real world, boots-to-the-ground mentality, I decided to run them together, paralleled, and two years later (they were old batteries before), they still work fine and have not had any issues. I never take my bank down lower the 55-60% state of charge anyways, so I've never hammered on the AGMs too hard. I don't even know how much extra life that bank realistically adds to my system. It does kind of seem like the SoC goes down slower since I connected the AGMs back in.

Since the two banks have a bit different discharge curves, there may be areas in that SoC curve where one bank is a bit of an asset or a liability on the adjacent bank (one bank takes more charge from the other, it's not like a 1:1 ratio throughout the discharge or charge curve).

I just look at it as a way to get a little extra watts on the system (since you already have them), but when they die, just take them out and replace them with LFP.

I don't have any schematics to create here since I'm not good with those kinds of tools. There are lots of other threads (controversial) about mixing chemistries in parallel, so I would encourage you to search here using the search page and read more about it.

I will provide an example here showing some of the varying opinions about it:

I guess all I am saying is that I don't want to say that I am really for or against it, I can understand why some say to never do it, but we don't live in a perfect world afterall, so we sometimes do what seems to work for us at any given time, and in this case it looks to work ok for me on this run, and doesn't seem to have any negative side effects for my system. Individual results may vary though.
Thank you for your fairly clear answer (in the Italian translation ... ) . Yes, I agree with you on the technical evaluation of the benches and consequently make your own decisions gained from your technical experience without considering an absolute opinion the fact that many users are against this. I seem to have understood that from your point of view you have technically evaluated if the configuration even if not shared by others, could be fine for the purpose of using more watts and maybe not 100% compatible with the lifepo4. As written earlier I started 1 year ago and I find myself today, like all beginners wanting to revolutionize their system for after the experience gained you realize that you could improve many things, but it would be necessary to invest in new inverts, batteries etc. So at the moment the reason why I would like to keep the batteries and as you did, take advantage of a storage until it runs out of energy.

I have 4 180 watt 12 v perc panels in series, for a total of 720 watts at about 80 volts.

An epever 6415 AN charge controller

A 12v Edecoa pure sine wave inverter

4 AGM1 110 amp 12v batteries in parallel c100 ( don't ask me why C100 ..... ) .

So in order to improve the plant with what I can expand without buying everything back, I thought:

I buy two more 12v 180 watt panels and add them in series to the 4 panels to have a string with VoC voltage of about 140 volts maximum and just over 1 kwp of power. (even in this configuration I don't know if it's better to change configuration in 2s2p having 3 panels in series x 2 so 60 volts 18 amps. I used to buy a 230 amp power qeen battery with bms at 150 amps and keep the 12v AGM 5kwh batteries (2.6 kwh use at 50% ). But I noticed that the lifepo4 batteries are 12.8 and not 12v, so following what you wrote there would be a voltage difference ...
 
Thanks for answering, could you give me some indications or rather an amazon link to make me realize how it is done and how it can be configured? Thank you .

Well I use the streetlight function of an Epever 4210AN which powers an automotive relay at sunset (available from any automotive parts shop) which switches on a 1200w boost converter (set to 52.2v) to top up my 48v AGM battery bank using my 12v Gel batteries. Both systems have their own SCCs and are separated/joined depending on sunlight conditions. If you can set up the streetlight function on your SCC (the voltages reflect the PV voltages - on @ 5v, off @ 35v) the SCC load terminals will act as a dusk/dawn switch.

I'm sure a quick search on amazon or ebay would find any boost converter you require, mine has current limiting which I check with a shunted monitor to observe/adjust the current rate to keep the fuses happy.

If you wanted to continue getting good use from your AGMs I recommend setting up to use a Lifepo4 battery to top up your AGMs through the night so their depth of discharge is minimal. Pick a current setting which satisfies 80% the Lifepo4 storage available over (for example) 14hrs of darkness.
 
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Well I use the streetlight function of an Epever 4210AN which powers an automotive relay at sunset (available from any automotive parts shop) which switches on a 1200w boost converter (set to 52.2v) to top up my 48v AGM battery bank using my 12v Gel batteries. Both systems have their own SCCs and are separated/joined depending on sunlight conditions. If you can set up the streetlight function on your SCC (the voltages reflect the PV voltages - on @ 5v, off @ 35v) the SCC load terminals will act as a dusk/dawn switch.

I'm sure a quick search on amazon or ebay would find any boost converter you require, mine has current limiting which I check with a shunted monitor to observe/adjust the current rate to keep the fuses happy.

If you wanted to continue getting good use from your AGMs I recommend setting up to use a Lifepo4 battery to top up your AGMs through the night so their depth of discharge is minimal. Pick a current setting which satisfies 80% the Lifepo4 storage available over (for example) 14hrs of darkness

Well I use the streetlight function of an Epever 4210AN which powers an automotive relay at sunset (available from any automotive parts shop) which switches on a 1200w boost converter (set to 52.2v) to top up my 48v AGM battery bank using my 12v Gel batteries. Both systems have their own SCCs and are separated/joined depending on sunlight conditions. If you can set up the streetlight function on your SCC (the voltages reflect the PV voltages - on @ 5v, off @ 35v) the SCC load terminals will act as a dusk/dawn switch.

I'm sure a quick search on amazon or ebay would find any boost converter you require, mine has current limiting which I check with a shunted monitor to observe/adjust the current rate to keep the fuses happy.

If you wanted to continue getting good use from your AGMs I recommend setting up to use a Lifepo4 battery to top up your AGMs through the night so their depth of discharge is minimal. Pick a current setting which satisfies 80% the Lifepo4 storage available over (for example) 14hrs of darkness.
Yes, unfortunately my epever 6415 I don't think it has this works. I regret it as I had the 4210 AN and the 3210AN that I had the possibility to program the output (bulb .... ) or to do it remotely with the softare epever.
So if I wanted to do as you did, would I have to buy a 1200 watt booster (10 amps in DC), connect the source to the lifepo4 and the output to the positive and negative pole of the AGM bench? How should the relay be connected to the invert? Would the relay exclude lifepo4?


 
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