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Anyone doing net metering using Victron Inverter?

Madcodger

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We're slowly building a new house in rural Maine (probably habitable late 2024). It will be our retirement home and I hope to make it net zero (double stud R40 walls, R60 ceiling, R20 floors) and I'd like to avoid using fossil fuels except for the backup generator if possible. I'll also have a small barn with less robust insulation but a need for at least some heat, but I'm not overly worried about that - it's the house that I'm really trying to "solve for". We're planning on about a 15-20Kw solar system, likely ground mount to make snow clearing easier, but the big question is whether to tie it to the grid and do net metering, or keep it off grid. And if we go with net metering, can I stick with Victron equipment, which I really like?

I've been using Victron equipment for the past year in some buildings on our current property and am thrilled with it. So, if we go off grid, I'll likely go with a couple of Quattro 10K units and the necessary SCCs. But CAN Victron equipment support net metering? Has anybody here done that, and if so, can you comment on your experience? Those are my big questions, if you want to stop reading here. Thanks in advance for anything you can contribute to my thinking on this situation.

Some additional background/stream-of-consciousness rambling in case anyone cares to read it: Winters here mean very little sun from about Nov-Jan, with late December having only about 3-3.5 hours of truly usable sun on a clear day, and many overcast days. Combined with a need for heat in those months, that makes the cost of going off grid, using no or few fossil fuels, and not relying on wood heat ridiculously high because we'd need a huge amount of battery storage and even then we'd need to run the generator fairly often. I could just install propane heat (in-floor hydronic and low temp radiators) and I have many acres of forest so I could do wood heat, but keep in mind that this is a retirement home, so we want to minimize and predict our retirement year expenses and minimize the physical labor required to live as we get older and less physically fit. The volatile and likely increasing cost of propane and other fossil fuels, and the labor necessary for wood, work against those goals. So, this leads me to think about net metering as a means to go all-electric, and use credits built up in summer to offset our winter need for grid-supplied AC. We would probably produce more than enough excess electricity in summer to offset the cost of winter electric use, so as much as I love the idea of being off grid, the economics don't seem to favor doing so when our state has reasonable net metering and we can build up lots of credits for 6-7 months of the year. And if I can't stay with Victron, what's the next bet option? Sol-Ark looks good, but I don't really want a Chinese-built unit that relies on a cloud connection, to be frank. I'd much prefer to stay with a US or European manufactured unit that has no reliance on the cloud for monitoring or programming, and for which spare parts might be more readily available if we (heaven forbid) end up in a conflict with China one day.
 
By rural Maine, do you mean north of the 45th parallel or just not near Portland or Agusta?

Double stud? IE double 2x6? As in Canadian spec. If so, you’re on the right track.

Winter heating will still be the challenge if dependent on solar for those coldest of days. IMO you can’t beat wood for heating, you can have 4 seasons on hand drying to combat price fluctuations. Even a pellet boiler is a great option with a silo and automatic feed there’s hardly any maintenance.

Who will be the grid connection CMP or Versant? Did you see the price of electricity supply last winter (~20 cent!!!)? You think that isn’t volatile?

My understanding is that Victron is more geared for using grid support for load that back feeding into the grid for export and net metering. Remember Victrons bread and butter is mobile not ESS and grid connection (look at how few of their stuff is UL listed or IEEE certified).
 
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CAN Victron equipment support net metering?
I assume net metering in Maine means being able to export to the grid some kwh and draw those kwh from the grid at a different time at no cost to you. (Net metering means different things in different parts of the world.)

Victron has an option in the ESS configuration to allow/disallow Feed-in excess solar charger power.

Set to 'On' to make the solar charger always operate at its maximum power point. The first priority is powering the loads, and the
second priority is to charge the battery. If more power is available when those two priorities are met, then that power will be fed to
the utility grid.
 
It seems like the answer is no for most US jurisdictions. You'll need an inverter that's UL listed for exporting.
 
Victron equipment can absolutely support grid export and net metering with your attached ESS. There are 2 ways of doing this right now as its essentially linking additional software up with your Victron system to allow it to make decision and send instruction to your Victron system to take certain actions.

Option 1) Victron has recently release their own Node-Red module for doing this and as it is pretty new it supports pretty basic functionality but covers most of what one would wish to do in regard to buy/sell sort of decisions. You can find all information about this module here:



Option 2) Another option would be these 2 projects which I have have been using it to manage my system for about a year now. Read more about it here:


(Disclaimer: I am the author.maintainer of the two projects above)

At the moment, both options here are not really plug and play options and require some level of experience configuring and installing software but I would expect that if you wait long enough Victron will be polishing their Dynamic ESS software (as they call it) and improving the ease of its installation, configuration, and use. I started my own project before Victron announced they were working on this and it has more integrations and fits my ideas of how dynamic ESS should work. Also, much easier for me to make adjustments immediately if i find bugs rather than wait on a software update from Victron. For this reason i will continue improving and maintaining the two projects of my own linked above.

Good luck and feel free to ask any questions. I am in a similar situation as you regarding almost no PV production in the winter. The main thing that saved me the most money last year was spot rate hourly energy prices from my energy supplier which allowed me to fill my Batteries at the lowest possible buy price in each 24 or 48 hour period and use that cheap energy while waiting for the next dip in pricing. Any excess energy i did not need until the buy point could be sold back to the grid and exported at the peak pricing and this really helped keep my energy bills down last winter (house is heated with electricity/heat pump).

Edit: Note that i am in europe so i have no idea how much of this is applicable to you in the US.
 
By rural Maine, do you mean north of the 45th parallel or just not near Portland or Agusta?
44.4, east of Augusta
Double stud? IE double 2x6? As in Canadian spec. If so, you’re on the right track.
Double stud. Likely double 2x4. I don't really see a need for 2x6 framing up to two stories, in a double wall. People switched to 2x6 to get the extra depth for insulation in single walls, and then just stayed with it for doubles but without a great need for it, from what I understand.
Winter heating will still be the challenge if dependent on solar for those coldest of days. IMO you can’t beat wood for heating, you can have 4 seasons on hand drying to combat price fluctuations. Even a pellet boiler is a great option with a silo and automatic feed there’s hardly any maintenance.
Not a bad point, but much of what I'm doing is making life easier in "old age", and trying to set things up to make things easy for my wife if I croak first. I've considered an outside wood boiler but man, do they eat wood. We have a wood stove, but have rarely used it over the past two winters due to the mess (we do fire up a wood fired sauna almost every day, in a building of its own). I've had pellet stoves in the past and liked them, but I'm not sure I want to saddle my wife with cleaning them if I'm gone. But again, all valid points.
Who will be the grid connection CMP or Versant? Did you see the price of electricity supply last winter (~20 cent!!!)? You think that isn’t volatile?
CMP. When you add it all up, I think we're at about $0.28/kwh, delivered. Ouch! And yes, I agree it has been volatile, but if you can cover winter costs with summer credits, it doesn't much matter.
My understanding is that Victron is more geared for using grid support for load that back feeding into the grid for export and net metering. Remember Victrons bread and butter is mobile not ESS and grid connection (look at how few of their stuff is UL listed or IEEE certified)
Well, yeah... The lack of UL listing might be a problem with some insurers, and was part of my reason for asking about this. But answers below give me hope. I really like their equipment, but just not sure it's the best bet for the new house. I have about a year to figure it out, so trying to start down that path now.
 
Victron equipment can absolutely support grid export and net metering with your attached ESS. There are 2 ways of doing this right now as its essentially linking additional software up with your Victron system to allow it to make decision and send instruction to your Victron system to take certain actions.

Option 1) Victron has recently release their own Node-Red module for doing this and as it is pretty new it supports pretty basic functionality but covers most of what one would wish to do in regard to buy/sell sort of decisions. You can find all information about this module here:



Option 2) Another option would be these 2 projects which I have have been using it to manage my system for about a year now. Read more about it here:


(Disclaimer: I am the author.maintainer of the two projects above)

At the moment, both options here are not really plug and play options and require some level of experience configuring and installing software but I would expect that if you wait long enough Victron will be polishing their Dynamic ESS software (as they call it) and improving the ease of its installation, configuration, and use. I started my own project before Victron announced they were working on this and it has more integrations and fits my ideas of how dynamic ESS should work. Also, much easier for me to make adjustments immediately if i find bugs rather than wait on a software update from Victron. For this reason i will continue improving and maintaining the two projects of my own linked above.

Good luck and feel free to ask any questions. I am in a similar situation as you regarding almost no PV production in the winter. The main thing that saved me the most money last year was spot rate hourly energy prices from my energy supplier which allowed me to fill my Batteries at the lowest possible buy price in each 24 or 48 hour period and use that cheap energy while waiting for the next dip in pricing. Any excess energy i did not need until the buy point could be sold back to the grid and exported at the peak pricing and this really helped keep my energy bills down last winter (house is heated with electricity/heat pump).

Edit: Note that i am in europe so i have no idea how much of this is applicable to you in the US.
This is incredibly helpful. Thanks! Definitely checking this out.
 
I assume net metering in Maine means being able to export to the grid some kwh and draw those kwh from the grid at a different time at no cost to you. (Net metering means different things in different parts of the world.)
Yep, that's what I mean. Build up lots of credits over 7-9 months when we would produce more power than we can use, selling power back to the utility. Then use those credits up in winter (Nov-Jan) when sunlight is scarce and temps are cold.
 
It seems like the answer is no for most US jurisdictions. You'll need an inverter that's UL listed for exporting.
This has been my assumption and I would love to be corrected, but I kind of crossed off Victron from my list of ESS candidates when I saw that MultiPlus only got 1741 certification. IIRC I looked at the actual certificate to see that it is 1741 only.

From the fact that the certificate was issued in April when most states were WELL into the era of requiring SA or SB, & the lack of US code compatible features elsewhere in their product line (EG AFCI not provided in their SCC) I concluded that Victron doesn't care about typical US stationary installations so is not the best fit vendor for me.

EDIT: Also, I might be going out on a limb, but if I was going to invest in a 1741 only, inverter/charger solution for the US, MidNite Rosie might be a better bet than Victron b/c they're more focused on the US market.
 
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Victron equipment can absolutely support grid export and net metering with your attached ESS. There are 2 ways of doing this right now as its essentially linking additional software up with your Victron system to allow it to make decision and send instruction to your Victron system to take certain actions.

Option 1) Victron has recently release their own Node-Red module for doing this and as it is pretty new it supports pretty basic functionality but covers most of what one would wish to do in regard to buy/sell sort of decisions. You can find all information about this module here:



Option 2) Another option would be these 2 projects which I have have been using it to manage my system for about a year now. Read more about it here:


(Disclaimer: I am the author.maintainer of the two projects above)

At the moment, both options here are not really plug and play options and require some level of experience configuring and installing software but I would expect that if you wait long enough Victron will be polishing their Dynamic ESS software (as they call it) and improving the ease of its installation, configuration, and use. I started my own project before Victron announced they were working on this and it has more integrations and fits my ideas of how dynamic ESS should work. Also, much easier for me to make adjustments immediately if i find bugs rather than wait on a software update from Victron. For this reason i will continue improving and maintaining the two projects of my own linked above.

Good luck and feel free to ask any questions. I am in a similar situation as you regarding almost no PV production in the winter. The main thing that saved me the most money last year was spot rate hourly energy prices from my energy supplier which allowed me to fill my Batteries at the lowest possible buy price in each 24 or 48 hour period and use that cheap energy while waiting for the next dip in pricing. Any excess energy i did not need until the buy point could be sold back to the grid and exported at the peak pricing and this really helped keep my energy bills down last winter (house is heated with electricity/heat pump).

Edit: Note that i am in europe so i have no idea how much of this is applicable to you in the US.
Pretty cool solution, but unless the gear meets IEEE standards 1547, the local utilty won’t sign off for the system to qualify for net metering program.
 
44.4, east of Augusta

Double stud. Likely double 2x4. I don't really see a need for 2x6 framing up to two stories, in a double wall. People switched to 2x6 to get the extra depth for insulation in single walls, and then just stayed with it for doubles but without a great need for it, from what I understand.

Not a bad point, but much of what I'm doing is making life easier in "old age", and trying to set things up to make things easy for my wife if I croak first. I've considered an outside wood boiler but man, do they eat wood. We have a wood stove, but have rarely used it over the past two winters due to the mess (we do fire up a wood fired sauna almost every day, in a building of its own). I've had pellet stoves in the past and liked them, but I'm not sure I want to saddle my wife with cleaning them if I'm gone. But again, all valid points.

CMP. When you add it all up, I think we're at about $0.28/kwh, delivered. Ouch! And yes, I agree it has been volatile, but if you can cover winter costs with summer credits, it doesn't much matter.

Well, yeah... The lack of UL listing might be a problem with some insurers, and was part of my reason for asking about this. But answers below give me hope. I really like their equipment, but just not sure it's the best bet for the new house. I have about a year to figure it out, so trying to start down that path now.
For ease and simplicity unless you’re on natural gas, you can’t beat oil or propane. A modern efficient boiler with a tight house, you’ll burn less than 300 gallons a season.

My in laws live near Farmington and their 2000sqft modern ranch built in 2015 burns around 300 gallons a year, 2x6 with 2” spray foam and fiberglass makes for a crazy air tight house.
 
I spent some time yesterday going through Victron's current certificates on their site, and some of their online videos, and I'm coming to the conclusion that they're just not serious about the US grid-tied market, period. CAN they work? I concluded that from a technical functional/ perspective, absolutely! But they can't prove that to the satisfaction of many regulators and bureaucrats, so the answer is effecticely, "Nope."That's disappointing, as the Victron equipment in my little off grid solar shed experiment has been fantastic, and I like the idea of a "modular" approach rather than an all-in-one. But given the lack of winter sun and the cost of batteries to get us through many cloudy days, along with potential problems from insurers, I guess my days of buying Victron aren't going to continue for much longer, sadly. I respect their decisions, but that sure seems like a big hole in a big market.
 
For ease and simplicity unless you’re on natural gas, you can’t beat oil or propane. A modern efficient boiler with a tight house, you’ll burn less than 300 gallons a season.

My in laws live near Farmington and their 2000sqft modern ranch built in 2015 burns around 300 gallons a year, 2x6 with 2” spray foam and fiberglass makes for a crazy air tight house.
Very true. We were just hoping to avoid fossil fuels if possible. Air-air heat pumps would work fine for our needs, we definitely want air conditioning in summer, and it will be relatively easy to generate excess solar production in summer, building up credits for winter. So, net metering makes sense even though I'd like to just stay off the grid (one less bureaucracy to deal with). A lot of my decisions, though, are driven by my desire to not leave my wife with a technical/functional problem or a house that's hard to sell, should something happen to me first.

One additional idea is to put hydronic tubing in the ground floor (relatively easy and not too expensive before we pour the slab) and low temp radiators in the upstairs. I could then run those hydronic tubes into a buffer tank and propane boiler, and use that during "true" winter, with the heat pumps handling shoulder seasons. That gives us a backup heat source if either system goes down (always smart in rural Maine) and we'll have a propane-fired backup generator on site anyway so we're going to have a tank no matter what. I could even install a wood boiler in addition to the propane boiler. I no longer relish the idea of cutting and splitting a lot of wood but we'll need to have a fair amount on hand for our sauna anyway (no way we'll give that up!), and we have 20+ acres of trees in addition to our 10-acre blueberry field where the house sits, so if the stuff hits the fan one day, we can at least have heat. Much to think about...
 
I seriously doubt your utility has net metering. It's gone the way of the dodo. What you get now is more along the lines of if you put 5 in you can pull 1 back out
 
I seriously doubt your utility has net metering. It's gone the way of the dodo. What you get now is more along the lines of if you put 5 in you can pull 1 back out
And yet they do... Central Maine Power. They do it because they're forced to do it, and they don't necessarily make it easy. But if the goal is to bank credits in summer for use in winter, it does that.
 
Also the term “net metering” is a vague specification, 100% to a variable rate based on local marginal price average. Either way if to don’t have your own storage it’s better than nothing.

Is the northeast as advanced as other markets? Far from it but as with everything it seems these days it’s evolving.
 
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