CA RESIDENTS: I am seeking advice. NEM 2/3? EV CHARGING? OFFGRID? ETC

[glandpuck]

My last bill in So Cal was just under 7 cents per kWh for month of May. On NEM 2.0. And I have an electric dryer, EV and 7 tons of AC.
I have achieved this with grid tied system, off grid system, Sol-Ark and battery bank.
The combination of Sol-Ark software and EV charger software allows charging of the batteries, EV and using the dryer all at the super off peak rates and making any adjustments to the schedule by the touch of the finger on the phone or website.

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

I will look into this. I just got the final bill for my solar upgrade. Its almost 80K from the total financing! 400+ dollars for 25 years. I may not even have the car for that long. I dont think im going to move forward with upgrading my existing solar.

Solar is hard to justify when you add financing costs ... And US$80K is crazy pricing .. it may well be normal/local pricing, but still silly (target market being those with more $ than sense)... but anyways

if you peruse this forums, you'll see frequent comments from those much more knowledgeable on this subject than I, that the cheapest PV production is the one not needed (ie, reducing kWh consumption is often cheaper than adding extra PV production). and to do that with a positive ROI means more data (usually)... Hence, as others have noted/alluded to:
- installing some electric monitoring will go a long ways to providing better info regarding future upgrades (the Emporia Vue being one such option)
and to check into any possible alternate TOU rate plans bet matched to your usage patterns? using just mentioned monitoring data, if need be

- Not sure the specifics with PG&E, but other CA NEM 2.0 allowed (without being pushed to NEM 3.0)

Systems that are 10 kilowatts (kW) or smaller can be increased by no more than 1 kW.​

Systems that are larger than 10 kW can be increased by no more than 10% of the existing system size.​

... the challenge (pre NEM 3.0) was that solar installers only wanted profit from larger jobs, and finding anyone willing to install extra panels *while maintaining original system warranty* became a a real challenge (near impossible) for large, well-known name brand grid-tied systems (panels, inverters, etc)
Which the recent collapse of residential PV market, and some persistence, you _might_ be able to get someone to add to your existing system at a reasonable rate (assuming easy room on roof for extra couple of panels, the panels compatible with current system, and the extra PV production not pushing previously designed system (inverter) into requiring an upgrade. if a whole roof warranty is in place (ex, I had a full roof lift and lay a few years prior), I'd check with roofer to see about adding additional panel mounts, while maintaining roof warranty. Then have company authorized for your system (Tesla) add the couple of extra panels to existing system
- I'm assuming extra PV production desirable for the AC (regardless if power optimized vs your current unit)

Out of curiosity... having dealt with the much older crowd that often like keeping the house nice and toasty warm, leading to others wanting a cooler room to retreat into. Is this your scenario? I ask in case that portable AC unit usage is relatively short term (couple of years.. parents move out) vs long-term plan?

As for EV charging... I take it you work someplace where your normal work site doesn't have free/cheap/subsidized charging onsite? (I was lucky that my last couple of employers all had onsite chargers for employees)
Not to count on... but worth checking into... other sites near your office... especially if there is a business (owner) that is friendly to your company that might allow you to use their onsite EVSE charger? again.. free or at a desirable rate, at least.
Or see if enough interest amongst others at your location to get site to add EVSE chargers(s)? obviously depends on specific situation if this might be practical or not.

 

[glandpuck]

Solar is hard to justify when you add financing costs ... And US$80K is crazy pricing .. it may well be normal/local pricing, but still silly (target market being those with more $ than sense)... but anyways

if you peruse this forums, you'll see frequent comments from those much more knowledgeable on this subject than I, that the cheapest PV production is the one not needed (ie, reducing kWh consumption is often cheaper than adding extra PV production). and to do that with a positive ROI means more data (usually)... Hence, as others have noted/alluded to:
- installing some electric monitoring will go a long ways to providing better info regarding future upgrades (the Emporia Vue being one such option)
and to check into any possible alternate TOU rate plans bet matched to your usage patterns? using just mentioned monitoring data, if need be

- Not sure the specifics with PG&E, but other CA NEM 2.0 allowed (without being pushed to NEM 3.0)

Systems that are 10 kilowatts (kW) or smaller can be increased by no more than 1 kW.​

Systems that are larger than 10 kW can be increased by no more than 10% of the existing system size.​

... the challenge (pre NEM 3.0) was that solar installers only wanted profit from larger jobs, and finding anyone willing to install extra panels *while maintaining original system warranty* became a a real challenge (near impossible) for large, well-known name brand grid-tied systems (panels, inverters, etc)
Which the recent collapse of residential PV market, and some persistence, you _might_ be able to get someone to add to your existing system at a reasonable rate (assuming easy room on roof for extra couple of panels, the panels compatible with current system, and the extra PV production not pushing previously designed system (inverter) into requiring an upgrade. if a whole roof warranty is in place (ex, I had a full roof lift and lay a few years prior), I'd check with roofer to see about adding additional panel mounts, while maintaining roof warranty. Then have company authorized for your system (Tesla) add the couple of extra panels to existing system
- I'm assuming extra PV production desirable for the AC (regardless if power optimized vs your current unit)

Out of curiosity... having dealt with the much older crowd that often like keeping the house nice and toasty warm, leading to others wanting a cooler room to retreat into. Is this your scenario? I ask in case that portable AC unit usage is relatively short term (couple of years.. parents move out) vs long-term plan?

As for EV charging... I take it you work someplace where your normal work site doesn't have free/cheap/subsidized charging onsite? (I was lucky that my last couple of employers all had onsite chargers for employees)
Not to count on... but worth checking into... other sites near your office... especially if there is a business (owner) that is friendly to your company that might allow you to use their onsite EVSE charger? again.. free or at a desirable rate, at least.
Or see if enough interest amongst others at your location to get site to add EVSE chargers(s)? obviously depends on specific situation if this might be practical or not.

IMO:

Solar is very cheap under certain conditions and very expensive under others.
What makes it cheap is the ability to get your system designed and permitted, purchase the needed hardware yourself at great discounts (panels, inverter, batteries, racks, wires, etc.) do most of the work as a self install if you have the ability and lastly pay with cash or credit card and do not finance or carry a balance. If you do this, your immediate reduction in your monthly utility is a bigger payoff that the stock market.

However, if you have to pay a solar company full retail prices as well as finance the system and potentially a lien on the home if you try to sell or have to payoff the remaining contract balance if you do sell, then I think it is a mistake to install solar in California. the reason is that the payoff in real savings will be too many years and a poor investment. You would be much farther ahead to take that same money and buy good equities.

That said, what I would advise then which is much less money would be to install a whole home generator or a large portable generator for utility outages. I would make certain this is natural gas or propane (even better diesel if your can). This kind of addition to a home will be far less costly, bring peace of mind and add value to the property right away.

My neighbor recently had 2 Tesla Powerwall 3 installed at a cost of $38,000. He will get the Federal tax break. But an alternative system like an 18K PV or Sol-Ark and a 25 kW battery stack could be had for about 13K! If you can hire the electrician or do it your self, there are big savings!

 

[hellosf]

IMO:

Solar is very cheap under certain conditions and very expensive under others.
What makes it cheap is the ability to get your system designed and permitted, purchase the needed hardware yourself at great discounts (panels, inverter, batteries, racks, wires, etc.) do most of the work as a self install if you have the ability and lastly pay with cash or credit card and do not finance or carry a balance. If you do this, your immediate reduction in your monthly utility is a bigger payoff that the stock market.

However, if you have to pay a solar company full retail prices as well as finance the system and potentially a lien on the home if you try to sell or have to payoff the remaining contract balance if you do sell, then I think it is a mistake to install solar in California. the reason is that the payoff in real savings will be too many years and a poor investment. You would be much farther ahead to take that same money and buy good equities.

That said, what I would advise then which is much less money would be to install a whole home generator or a large portable generator for utility outages. I would make certain this is natural gas or propane (even better diesel if your can). This kind of addition to a home will be far less costly, bring peace of mind and add value to the property right away.

My neighbor recently had 2 Tesla Powerwall 3 installed at a cost of $38,000. He will get the Federal tax break. But an alternative system like an 18K PV or Sol-Ark and a 25 kW battery stack could be had for about 13K! If you can hire the electrician or do it your self, there are big savings!

Installers have long made solar/storage less affordable. The solar business model is totally unsustainable as evidenced why so many of these businesses are struggling. How many other construction businesses, have been able to extract margins anywhere near what these solar companies have achieved.

California's skyrocketing electricity rates will continue to make solar power with battery storage an increasingly attractive option for homeowners esp. as we continue to electrify and transition to EVs. Recent changes to Net Metering (NEM 3.0) significantly reduce the financial incentive to export solar energy back to the grid. However, this shift incentivizes maximizing self-consumption, and by using and potentially storing excess solar power, homeowners can significantly reduce their electricity bills. Self-consumption with solar and storage can effectively bring your electricity costs down to as low as 9-15 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh) – a fraction of the rates charged by utilities like SDG&E, SCE, and PG&E.

Given where the current rates are headed, the system costs will continue to spiral out of control for those that cannot afford to self generate.

 

[glandpuck]

Installers have long made solar/storage less affordable. The solar business model is totally unsustainable as evidenced why so many of these businesses are struggling. How many other construction businesses, have been able to extract margins anywhere near what these solar companies have achieved.

California's skyrocketing electricity rates will continue to make solar power with battery storage an increasingly attractive option for homeowners esp. as we continue to electrify and transition to EVs. Recent changes to Net Metering (NEM 3.0) significantly reduce the financial incentive to export solar energy back to the grid. However, this shift incentivizes maximizing self-consumption, and by using and potentially storing excess solar power, homeowners can significantly reduce their electricity bills. Self-consumption with solar and storage can effectively bring your electricity costs down to as low as 9-15 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh) – a fraction of the rates charged by utilities like SDG&E, SCE, and PG&E.

Given where the current rates are headed, the system costs will continue to spiral out of control for those that cannot afford to self generate.

What you say is true and the consequences are now that the public utilities in the State have persuaded the Public Utility Commission that a per household fixed monthly fee paid to the utility regardless of consumption will be applied to all beginning in 2025 or 2026. Ugh!

Of course, vandals could cut your grid connection and never be caught. It would takes months for the "crime scene" to be repaired.

 

[hellosf]

What you say is true and the consequences are now that the public utilities in the State have persuaded the Public Utility Commission that a per household fixed monthly fee paid to the utility regardless of consumption will be applied to all beginning in 205 or 2026. Ugh!

Of course, vandals could cut your grid connection and never be caught. It would takes months for the "crime scene" to be repaired.

$24.15/month fixed fee unless you are a low income customer. I generally support the fixed fee, as a grid connection charge, but assume that the fixed fee will not remain fixed for long. In exchange for the fixed fee we are told that rates will be reduced and we will see a reduction in price per kilowatt hour by $.05. Since the IOUs raise our rates by more than that amount each year, so any price decrease will only benefit ratepayers momentarily...

The fixed fee is really a red herring as it intended to distract from the disastrously high IOU electric rates that threaten California's statewide policies.

 

[glandpuck]

$24.15/month fixed fee unless you are a low income customer. I generally support the fixed fee, as a grid connection charge, but assume that the fixed fee will not remain fixed for long. In exchange for the fixed fee we are told that rates will be reduced and we will see a reduction in price per kilowatt hour by $.05. Since the IOUs raise our rates by more than that amount each year, so any price decrease will only benefit ratepayers momentarily...

The fixed fee is really a red herring as it intended to distract from the disastrously high IOU electric rates that threaten California's statewide policies.

Serenity now!