CA RESIDENTS: I am seeking advice. NEM 2/3? EV CHARGING? OFFGRID? ETC

[noy897]

My wife and I recently moved back to her parents' house in Northern California. Before we moved here, her parents used to receive a yearly credit from PGE, usually around $700 to $800, because their solar panels produced more energy than they needed under NEM 2.0. However, things have changed since we've started living here. We have a Tesla Model Y and run a portable AC unit for more than 10 hours a day. As a result, the estimated annual true-up cost has shot up to a range of $2,500 to $3,000, which is roughly $200 to $250 per month. Since we plan to stay here and take over the household, we're considering investing in more solar panels.

Here's what I'm thinking:

1. I know that if I add more solar panels, I'll be moved to NEM 3.0, which doesn't offer as much in terms of annual credits. To avoid the hassle of permits and buying additional solar panels, I'm thinking about getting two EcoFlow 21kWh systems with over 2kW of solar panels each. Essentially, I'd have a 42kWh system with solar panels. One system would be solely for charging the car, and the other would power our room, including the portable AC. This investment would cost around $30,000, but it's eligible for a 30% tax rebate. Most importantly, since I don't need a permit for this setup and don't have to modify the existing panels or notify PGE, I can avoid being switched to NEM 3.0. If I totally offset my consumption then we can possibly start getting those credits back. You can check out the product here: EcoFlow Delta Pro 21.6kWh and 2,680 Watts of Solar Panels Total Solar Generator Kit.
2. Another option is teaming up with Vivit. They've proposed installing a 30kW battery system and more solar panels for around $50,000 or more. However, this would switch me to NEM 3.0.

I'm a bit torn between these two options. We plan to keep our Tesla and continue running our AC, so we won't be reducing our electricity usage either way. So, I'm trying to figure out whether option 1 or 2 would be the better choice. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[400bird]

You can probably save quite a bit of energy by ditching that portable AC unit. Something like a mini split would be a big improvement.

2 kW of solar isn't going to charge a 21kWh battery very quickly, seems undersized.

I'd recommend an offgrid system with real components, not solar generator type equipment.

 

[400bird]

You shouldn't double post.

Seeking for some DIY advice battery/solar combo to charge my EV

Hello, I've had solar panels installed on my property for a while, and they've been working wonderfully. However, after purchasing a Tesla last year, I was surprised to receive a significant true-up bill of $2,100, which is expected to be due in January of next year. Historically, I've been...

diysolarforum.com

 

[zanydroid]

You're still going to want AHJ permits. Solar panels are very visible and easy to audit. There have been posts here about anonymous calls to AHJ about non-permitted installations that resulted in nasty visits from the gov't.

Permit cost is ~$800 (plans, city) for me on the peninsula. Actually my city has basically $0 permit fees currently for a bunch of environmentally related projects.

Batteries require UL9540 in California which is quite pricey. In North America (Canada / US) rooftop solar DC strings must have AFCI. There's about 0% chance any solar generator has AFCI.

(Preachy). If you're DIY'ing something for the first time, you don't know what you don't know. The extra hoops of doing it through the AHJ will force you to learn properly and do properly. I forced myself to do that on my first install (just finished that this month).

 

[noy897]

Ahh, at this rate i might as well get off nem 2.0 and just talk to the solar consultant and make another design that can accommodate electric use.

 

[Hedges]

If you have NEM 2.0, do not give it up.

You could add a zero-export system downstream of it.

 

[zanydroid]

I'm pretty sure if you math it out, NEM2 + storage with an off-grid system PG&E doesn't know about will be strictly better than NEM3. I'll put good money on this bet . New storage, but illegal and not eligible for NEM2, would also beat NEM3.

That's true with the current location in the export compensation transition (IE this year is the max they'll pay you). and it only goes downhill from there.

 

[zanydroid]

Regarding that $50K idea... you can probably take a few $K of that on energy efficiency and get better ROI.

For instance adding an Emporia Vue 2 for usage monitoring, you'll see how much each individual thing is killing you.

(In the grand scheme of things, EV charging with off-peak electricity is already a pretty massive savings over California gas prices)

 

[Zwy]

My wife and I recently moved back to her parents' house in Northern California. Before we moved here, her parents used to receive a yearly credit from PGE, usually around $700 to $800, because their solar panels produced more energy than they needed under NEM 2.0. However, things have changed since we've started living here. We have a Tesla Model Y and run a portable AC unit for more than 10 hours a day. As a result, the estimated annual true-up cost has shot up to a range of $2,500 to $3,000, which is roughly $200 to $250 per month. Since we plan to stay here and take over the household, we're considering investing in more solar panels.

Here's what I'm thinking:

1. I know that if I add more solar panels, I'll be moved to NEM 3.0, which doesn't offer as much in terms of annual credits. To avoid the hassle of permits and buying additional solar panels, I'm thinking about getting two EcoFlow 21kWh systems with over 2kW of solar panels each. Essentially, I'd have a 42kWh system with solar panels. One system would be solely for charging the car, and the other would power our room, including the portable AC. This investment would cost around $30,000, but it's eligible for a 30% tax rebate. Most importantly, since I don't need a permit for this setup and don't have to modify the existing panels or notify PGE, I can avoid being switched to NEM 3.0. If I totally offset my consumption then we can possibly start getting those credits back. You can check out the product here: EcoFlow Delta Pro 21.6kWh and 2,680 Watts of Solar Panels Total Solar Generator Kit.
2. Another option is teaming up with Vivit. They've proposed installing a 30kW battery system and more solar panels for around $50,000 or more. However, this would switch me to NEM 3.0.

I'm a bit torn between these two options. We plan to keep our Tesla and continue running our AC, so we won't be reducing our electricity usage either way. So, I'm trying to figure out whether option 1 or 2 would be the better choice. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Third option is stay in NEM 2.0, take the Tesla charging off grid and install an energy efficient inverter mini split.

Build a micro grid with an off grid inverter and batteries. As long as you don't feed to grid, you won't need to move to NEM 3.0 or get an agreement with the utility. You will most likely need it permitted and inspected.

 

[Hedges]

During what hours and days is the EV at that location?

You could set up a zero-export PV/battery hybrid that supplies the entire property, and wire NEM 2.0 grid-tie system between hybrid and grid.
That way 100% of hybrid PV goes to loads and battery, or is curtailed. Never exported.
100% of NEM 2.0 system backfeeds grid, unless property needs power not available from hybrid PV or battery.
That maximizes use of grid as "storage".
While you're at it, consider adding and ESS that is approved by utility, to time-shift NEM 2.0 grid-tie production to peak hours, earning a larger credit so you can get back more kWh off-peak than you produce.

(Engineers are often better at financial math than bean counters. Of course, you need to evaluate amortized cost per kWh over lifespan of the equipment purchased.)

(In the grand scheme of things, EV charging with off-peak electricity is already a pretty massive savings over California gas prices)

And another 2.5x to 10x if fed by turn-key (or DIY) PV.

 

[noy897]

So you guys are saying I can hire a DIY solar tech (with permits ofc) to install solar on my roof + battery and have this setup completely off-grid and I won't get kicked off NEM 2.0?

If that is the case, I can make a complete off-grid setup just to power all the random stuff in our home light lights, tv, etc

 

[noy897]

During what hours and days is the EV at that location?

You could set up a zero-export PV/battery hybrid that supplies the entire property, and wire NEM 2.0 grid-tie system between hybrid and grid.
That way 100% of hybrid PV goes to loads and battery, or is curtailed. Never exported.
100% of NEM 2.0 system backfeeds grid, unless property needs power not available from hybrid PV or battery.
That maximizes use of grid as "storage".
While you're at it, consider adding and ESS that is approved by utility, to time-shift NEM 2.0 grid-tie production to peak hours, earning a larger credit so you can get back more kWh off-peak than you produce.

(Engineers are often better at financial math than bean counters. Of course, you need to evaluate amortized cost per kWh over lifespan of the equipment purchased.)



And another 2.5x to 10x if fed by turn-key (or DIY) PV.

Charges during night time 5PM-5AM

 

[noy897]

During what hours and days is the EV at that location?

You could set up a zero-export PV/battery hybrid that supplies the entire property, and wire NEM 2.0 grid-tie system between hybrid and grid.
That way 100% of hybrid PV goes to loads and battery, or is curtailed. Never exported.
100% of NEM 2.0 system backfeeds grid, unless property needs power not available from hybrid PV or battery.
That maximizes use of grid as "storage".
While you're at it, consider adding and ESS that is approved by utility, to time-shift NEM 2.0 grid-tie production to peak hours, earning a larger credit so you can get back more kWh off-peak than you produce.

(Engineers are often better at financial math than bean counters. Of course, you need to evaluate amortized cost per kWh over lifespan of the equipment purchased.)



And another 2.5x to 10x if fed by turn-key (or DIY) PV.

Thank you for this information. I did my research on this and it will be too difficult for me to install. Am I able to hire DYI techs or companies that is bale to do this stuff?

 

[zanydroid]

So you guys are saying I can hire a DIY solar tech (with permits ofc) to install solar on my roof + battery and have this setup completely off-grid and I won't get kicked off NEM 2.0?

You might have a really hard time finding a DIY solar tech yourself. You would probably need a referral service to find a local installer. And they're probably not going to be very good esp with a DC system. (EDIT: which is the vast majority of off grid systems)

As for not getting kicked off NEM2. I don't know the official answer. I think it it doesn't electrically touch PG&E side. Most likely fine. Especially since PG&E can't tell that you've added more solar panels. Well I guess they could scrape the permits from your city website (which is generally open records in the Bay Area).

 

[zanydroid]

Charges during night time 5PM-5AM

5PM is not what you want. 9PM is the start of off peak on TOU.

 

[noy897]

5PM is not what you want. 9PM is the start of off peak on TOU.

Oh sorry, what i meant was when the car is home and when the car leaves for work. I do charge at off peak.

 

[noy897]

You might have a really hard time finding a DIY solar tech yourself. You would probably need a referral service to find a local installer. And they're probably not going to be very good esp with a DC system. (EDIT: which is the vast majority of off grid systems)

As for not getting kicked off NEM2. I don't know the official answer. I think it it doesn't electrically touch PG&E side. Most likely fine. Especially since PG&E can't tell that you've added more solar panels. Well I guess they could scrape the permits from your city website (which is generally open records in the Bay Area).

Make sense, if it has nothing to do with PGE or not tied to it they should not have to kick me out. Im surprise you cant find installers to do this? Is this illegal or just risky? Like what would be the reason why companies do not advertise this off grid type of install?

 

[zanydroid]

Make sense, if it has nothing to do with PGE or not tied to it they should not have to kick me out. Im surprise you cant find installers to do this? Is this illegal or just risky? Like what would be the reason why companies do not advertise this off grid type of install?

Dunno.

These systems are more complex to get right. Most solar installers aren't good at design. And the ones that are, you pay more for which kills your ROI.

For EVSE specifically you need to match the charging speed to the output of the solar, while operating in off grid mode. There's not that much off the shelf equipment that can do it, a lot of it is designed for matching while on grid. The latter is much simpler electrically speaking.

Not as lucrative as new NEM2 grid tie installs when NEM2 was still a thing.

Off grid equipment generally requires expertise working with DC strings. More labor intensive (although people still install SolarEdge here which are DC strings).

They definitely would have installed these systems if the 2022 version of NEM3 went into effect, it was one of the installer industry's backup plans.

Maybe if there are a lot of NEM2 customers that are savvy enough to look for this service, the turnkey companies will start offering it. It will also depend on the necessary off-the-shelf equipment showing up. Those are far from rocket science but someone has to decide there's a market, make it, and then get it UL listed.

 

[noy897]

Dunno.

These systems are more complex to get right. Most solar installers aren't good at design. And the ones that are, you pay more for which kills your ROI.

For EVSE specifically you need to match the charging speed to the output of the solar, while operating in off grid mode. There's not that much off the shelf equipment that can do it, a lot of it is designed for matching while on grid. The latter is much simpler electrically speaking.

Not as lucrative as new NEM2 grid tie installs when NEM2 was still a thing.

Off grid equipment generally requires expertise working with DC strings. More labor intensive (although people still install SolarEdge here which are DC strings).

They definitely would have installed these systems if the 2022 version of NEM3 went into effect, it was one of the installer industry's backup plans.

Maybe if there are a lot of NEM2 customers that are savvy enough to look for this service, the turnkey companies will start offering it.

Thank you. I guess at this rate I just wait and ill avoid upgrading my current system. We started our PTO on NEM2.0 around 2020, so I still have tons of years left. Maybe next year or two someone will start offering something. In the meantime ill just continue to pay the true-up

 

[zanydroid]

OK.

So the ideas we tossed around, about buying a UL9540 system and then using that to juice up your export value using "Forced Export" mode to push it out during peak. With DIY install the break even was somewhere >8 years when I last calculated it. So add 50-100% to that for professional install.

Those systems should be getting a lot cheaper in the next few years, so you'll probably lose money long term as an early adopter.

Another thing that will mess with the long term financial modeling is the income-based minimum charges that will start next year.

Do take a look at the efficiency improvements. Portable AC, maybe other stuff like insulation. Those 24x7 couple 100W loads really add up to $$.