CA RESIDENTS: I am seeking advice. NEM 2/3? EV CHARGING? OFFGRID? ETC

[noy897]

Why spend $12,000 for a battery (less than 100% efficient) to store power during peak times of the day, and use to charge your car at night when you could have bought power at off-peak rates with credits earned on-peak?

Net metering is 100% efficient (less any fixed fees; is that $11/month? Compare to $12k battery, call that $100/month amortized over a decade.) Actually > 100%, if you backfeed any power during on-peak, and draw off-peak.

That is why I suggested added PV on a zero-export hybrid (batteries optional) inverter. If you don't make enough kWh today, you could make more to fix it.

Do you have room for more rooftop PV? What kind of shingles/roofing?
Do you have room for ground mounts?

"and run a portable AC unit for more than 10 hours a day. As a result, the estimated annual true-up cost has shot up to a range of $2,500 to $3,000, which is roughly $200 to $250 per month."

Do you think the portable A/C is most of that consumption?
Does this portable A/C have 2 hoses, or not?
You need to determine what it's consumption is. And efficient window unit or mini-split might be an improvement.
You must be somewhere hot. Where is the solar gain coming from? An uninsulated roof? Windows?

Thank you everyone for all your input! I want to give as many details as possible.

1) I have included our prior bills with and without trueup
2) I have also included data from the solar company
3) I have included data from the tesla on how much kwh it charged from my home
4) I have included information about the AC

OLD BILL

End Date	Net Peak Usage (kWh)	Net Off Peak Usage (kWh)	Net Use (kWh)	Estimated NEM Charges Before Taxes	Estimated NEM Charges After Taxes
02/11/2021	53	-123	-70	-85.01	-58.03
03/15/2021	115	-661	-546	-108.65	-108.82
04/12/2021	-113	-863	-976	-240.37	-240.66
05/13/2021	-175	-1361	-1536	-330.60	-331.99
06/14/2021	152	-1146	-994	-304.99	-306.45
07/14/2021	-1	-860	-861	-204.91	-204.44
08/15/2021	176	-713	-537	-116.58	-116.74
09/14/2021	21	-646	-625	-144.12	-84.25
10/13/2021	55	-775	-720	-183.49	-183.70
11/12/2021	39	-518	-479	-101.58	-101.72
12/13/2021	224	-119	105	41.80	41.83
TOTAL	528	-7791	-7264	-$1,772.80	-$1,774.97

NEW BILL

Bill Period End Date	Net Peak Usage (kWh)	Net Part Peak Usage (kWh)	Net Off Peak Usage (kWh)	Net Use (kWh)	Estimated NEM Charges Before Taxes	Estimated Total NEM Charges
02/12/2023	417	0	678	1095	$406.16	$406.49
03/14/2023	263	111	488	862	$301.98	$302.24
04/13/2023	95	84	239	418	$171.98	$172.11
05/14/2023	21	86	68	174	$104.60	$104.65
06/12/2023	-37	79	-44	-2	$55.88	$55.88
07/13/2023	96	183	103	382	$211.66	$211.78
08/13/2023	478	264	278	1020	$509.46	$509.77
09/12/2023	349	221	353	923	450.91	451.23
10/12/2023	279	176	260	714	$282.85	$282.99
TOTAL	1944	1144	2364	5496	$2,495.48	$2,497.14

SOLAR DATA

2021 Production 18.1 mWh
2022 Production 18.7 mWh
2023 Production 15.5 mWh
I have also attached a pic of our current solar setup.

TESLA DATA:
We purchased the Tesla in September of last year and since then the Tesla has consumed 6,967.88 kWh of charging.
From 2/12/23-10/12/23 - 6,725.25 kWh

AC INFO:
I have a watt meter and it showed between 900-1200watts. This is the AC model:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DLPUWHQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[goldserve]

Well, it looks like the biggest consumer is charging car and if it can't be done during the day, it is hard to build a separate off-grid charging array without spending massive amounts on battery power. With NEM2, the grid is like a massive battery so I would try to increase sell back to PGE by offsetting the house and selling back some more throughout the day so you can bank KWH for charging at night.

 

[AntronX]

Wow, 45 cents per kWh final cost. Replace that AC either with dual hose unit or with Midea U window unit. That single hose unit pulls in outdoor air through the gaps in house windows. Or get a mini-split AC.

 

[noy897]

Well, it looks like the biggest consumer is charging car and if it can't be done during the day, it is hard to build a separate off-grid charging array without spending massive amounts on battery power. With NEM2, the grid is like a massive battery so I would try to increase sell back to PGE by offsetting the house and selling back some more throughout the day so you can bank KWH for charging at night.

This is the reason i thought about buying something like this strictly to charge my tesla. I can even purchase two kits to power my home and to charge my tesla. I can use their smart meter which lets you connect battery to your home panel.

Ecoflow Delta Pro - 21.6KWH and 2,680 Watts of Solar Panels | Total Solar Generator kit

●With this kit, you won't require any additional components to start● Our comprehensive custom 7,200W, 21,600Wh solar system, meticulously designed to provide you with everything you need to effortlessly run your solar power system. With an impressive 21.6kWh battery capacity and 2,680 watts of...

generationecostore.com

 

[noy897]

Wow, 45 cents per kWh final cost. Replace that AC either with dual hose unit or with Midea U window unit. That single hose unit pulls in outdoor air through the gaps in house windows. Or get a mini-split AC.

Going to look into this. I was looking at Mr.cool and it look easy to install (minisplit)

 

[goldserve]

This is the reason i thought about buying something like this strictly to charge my tesla. I can even purchase two kits to power my home and to charge my tesla. I can use their smart meter which lets you connect battery to your home panel.

Ecoflow Delta Pro - 21.6KWH and 2,680 Watts of Solar Panels | Total Solar Generator kit

●With this kit, you won't require any additional components to start● Our comprehensive custom 7,200W, 21,600Wh solar system, meticulously designed to provide you with everything you need to effortlessly run your solar power system. With an impressive 21.6kWh battery capacity and 2,680 watts of...

generationecostore.com

If saving money is your goal, do your own ROI calculations and see if 17K will be recovered in a reasonable amount of time. Will putting 20KWh into your car every night give you the miles you need for commute? In the winter, you would need a lot of panels to even bank 20KWh so don't forget about that when you factor in your ROI calculations.

I installed MrCool DIY throughout my house (also in PG&E territory) and absolutely love them. Saved a bunch of money! Reducing power consumption and getting a tax deduction is absolutely great ROI. I am moving forward to tearing out my gas furnace now and installing a HPWH so I can reduce giving any money to PG&E in terms of gas usage.

 

[noy897]

If saving money is your goal, do your own ROI calculations and see if 17K will be recovered in a reasonable amount of time. Will putting 20KWh into your car every night give you the miles you need for commute? In the winter, you would need a lot of panels to even bank 20KWh so don't forget about that when you factor in your ROI calculations.

I installed MrCool DIY throughout my house (also in PG&E territory) and absolutely love them. Saved a bunch of money! Reducing power consumption and getting a tax deduction is absolutely great ROI. I am moving forward to tearing out my gas furnace now and installing a HPWH so I can reduce giving any money to PG&E in terms of gas usage.

This also qualify for 30% rebate, so it should come out <13k, According to tesla fi, my wife commute uses about 15kwh round trip. I just wish this system can input more solar.

 

[Zwy]

Thank you everyone for all your input! I want to give as many details as possible.

1) I have included our prior bills with and without trueup
2) I have also included data from the solar company
3) I have included data from the tesla on how much kwh it charged from my home
4) I have included information about the AC

OLD BILL

End Date	Net Peak Usage (kWh)	Net Off Peak Usage (kWh)	Net Use (kWh)	Estimated NEM Charges Before Taxes	Estimated NEM Charges After Taxes
02/11/2021	53	-123	-70	-85.01	-58.03
03/15/2021	115	-661	-546	-108.65	-108.82
04/12/2021	-113	-863	-976	-240.37	-240.66
05/13/2021	-175	-1361	-1536	-330.60	-331.99
06/14/2021	152	-1146	-994	-304.99	-306.45
07/14/2021	-1	-860	-861	-204.91	-204.44
08/15/2021	176	-713	-537	-116.58	-116.74
09/14/2021	21	-646	-625	-144.12	-84.25
10/13/2021	55	-775	-720	-183.49	-183.70
11/12/2021	39	-518	-479	-101.58	-101.72
12/13/2021	224	-119	105	41.80	41.83
TOTAL	528	-7791	-7264	-$1,772.80	-$1,774.97

NEW BILL

Bill Period End Date	Net Peak Usage (kWh)	Net Part Peak Usage (kWh)	Net Off Peak Usage (kWh)	Net Use (kWh)	Estimated NEM Charges Before Taxes	Estimated Total NEM Charges
02/12/2023	417	0	678	1095	$406.16	$406.49
03/14/2023	263	111	488	862	$301.98	$302.24
04/13/2023	95	84	239	418	$171.98	$172.11
05/14/2023	21	86	68	174	$104.60	$104.65
06/12/2023	-37	79	-44	-2	$55.88	$55.88
07/13/2023	96	183	103	382	$211.66	$211.78
08/13/2023	478	264	278	1020	$509.46	$509.77
09/12/2023	349	221	353	923	450.91	451.23
10/12/2023	279	176	260	714	$282.85	$282.99
TOTAL	1944	1144	2364	5496	$2,495.48	$2,497.14

SOLAR DATA

2021 Production 18.1 mWh
2022 Production 18.7 mWh
2023 Production 15.5 mWh
I have also attached a pic of our current solar setup.

TESLA DATA:
We purchased the Tesla in September of last year and since then the Tesla has consumed 6,967.88 kWh of charging.
From 2/12/23-10/12/23 - 6,725.25 kWh

840 Kwh per month.

At $0.29/Kwh that comes to $243.60/month

How many miles driven? Winter/cold weather will of course require more Kwh.

AC INFO:
I have a watt meter and it showed between 900-1200watts. This is the AC model:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DLPUWHQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If a mini split draws 500W after initial cool down, that would be about 500W less. 24 hours= 12Kwh

12Kwh costs you about $5/day

That $150/month

If the difference is 700W instead of 500W add about another $60/month

 

[glandpuck]

I scanned the thread. Lots of opinions. I am in So Cal similar situation to yours. First things first though. Most utilities offer many different rate plans. In our case, we are on NEM 2.0. We have an EV. We pay 5K out of pocket annually. Our plan is called EV-TOU-5 which imposes a base $16 monthly charge, then $0.15 per kWh from midnight till 6 AM weekdays and till 2 PM on weekends. That's when we we charge our EV and wash clothes and use electric dryer. Then there are the off peak rates varying from $0.28 to $0.45 winter/summer and then peak rate from 4-9 PM that's like $0.50 in winter and $1.04 in summer. If your system is strictly grid tied, then you can stay with it, get on the lowest rate plan for your usage and add a whole home back up generator to cover you for outages of the grid. Cost about 20K.
Your second option if system is grid tied is to add a hybrid inverter with battery storage. Depending on your home's needs, this could be an inverter using as little as 6,000 watts of output up to a single inverter with 12,000 or 15,000 watts of output or even paralleling 2 inverters. These inverters will support a generator and utilize batteries for charging in the day and then reducing your high time of use costs. In CA, it is wise to install an inverter system that will meet UL9540a for batteries and UL9540 for inverter. The components should also be listed on the California Energy Commission website or they cannot be connected to the utility grid. Right now, there are excellent deals available. Lastly, you can keep your existing system and add to it an off grid system. You would install more panels, add in an inverter and batteries and then have an electrician move a lot of your home's circuits from the main panel into a sub panel powered by this inverter. The inverter would also support a generator and could have a non selling connection to the grid if needed. An example of a great system would be an Outback Radian or Mojave inverter with charge controllers and batteries. These inverters are rock solid, but are indoor install only like garage.

If you have more questions about what i said, shoot a PM.

NEM 2.0 is only valuable if you are near a zero monthly bill due to your exports or production. If you are consuming and paying a lot in spite of solar, then your only way out is to add PV to generate more power and store what you need in batteries to get away from the high time of use charges. then charge your vehicle in the middle of the night.

 

[Kuma]

Yes i thought about this but PGE may catch that there is extra production going on and kick me of nem 2.0? (I'm just assuming this)

Recently installed pv under NEM 2. imo PGE is concerned about about "peak" kw to the grid and not total production. Im approved with a 5kw inverter that is oversized 140%, ~7kw. I was originally approved for 5.5kw and decided to add more panels. Emailed PGE NEM Support/Engineering and they approved more panels as long as inverter size remained 5kw.

 

[noy897]

Just to follow up,

Im planning to purchase Delta Pro Ultra series when it comes out later next year. If I install more solar on my roof (with permits ofc) but NOT grid tied, will PGE kick me off nem 2.0?

My idea is to purchase 50+KWH batteries + solar panels but not have them tied to the grid. I will use it to charge my car and power small appliances. This should get me back to where I'm getting credits again from NEM

 

[glandpuck]

You may not increase the amount of PV approved under your NEM plan by more than 10% or 1kW, or you will be kicked off NEM 1.0 or 2.0. The way to go is to add an off grid system and a subpanel and batteries and split it off from your home.

And make sure your home owner's insurance in Ca will not be cancelled when you put panels on the roof.

 

[Hedges]

And once that is done, I think you can get more use out of it by letting it draw additional power from grid as needed (but zero backfeed), and moving more loads onto it. Any kWh supplied by this additional system for your house is kWh your existing system can backfeed for NEM credits. To save for a rainy day.

To do that most cleanly, an inverter that is grid interactive and supports zero backfeed would be best. SolArk I think is one of several.

Unlike people with no approved net metering system, you don't have to worry about instantaneous backfeed when there is load dump.

 

[zanydroid]

Recently installed pv under NEM 2. imo PGE is concerned about about "peak" kw to the grid and not total production.

Physics wise total production affects the duty cycle calculations on the transformers and wires. IE it’s not just about what the peak current is.

So they do have cause to complain.

Whether they will and how it’s expressed in Rule21 is a different question.

 

[zanydroid]

Just to follow up,

Im planning to purchase Delta Pro Ultra series when it comes out later next year. If I install more solar on my roof (with permits ofc) but NOT grid tied, will PGE kick me off nem 2.0?

My idea is to purchase 50+KWH batteries + solar panels but not have them tied to the grid. I will use it to charge my car and power small appliances. This should get me back to where I'm getting credits again from NEM

Why Delta Pro vs the Luxpower 6k or SRNE10k people are getting experience with on the forum. Among dubiously permit ready options (I haven’t looked into the Ultra to see it’s certs).

When that Delta comes out it’ll start way behind on real world operational data and experience, so the real responsible date you should adopt it is even farther out.

I guess you are ongrid so you don’t need to be super diligent and responsible.

And presumably you don’t care about UL9540 (unless delta pro ultra has it), but you said you want permits.

I don’t think PG&E would kick you off for off grid.

 

[Hedges]

Physics wise total production affects the duty cycle calculations on the transformers and wires. IE it’s not just about what the peak current is.

Yeah! The more power he produces, the less he draws or more he exports, the less is drawn through the transformer feeding his neighborhood. And the wires, unless his is the very first house after the transformer.

Power dissipation goes as current squared, so integral of current squared over some time period is more important than total watts or brief peak current.

 

[zanydroid]

Yeah! The more power he produces, the less he draws or more he exports, the less is drawn through the transformer feeding his neighborhood. And the wires, unless his is the very first house after the transformer.

It depends on specifics.

If the export is unmediated it will be off peak which will likely push up the transmission hierarchy. Now potentially this cancels out their consumption, but it’s not guaranteed bc presumably their consumption would be likely aligned to off peak/peak patterns bc they are likely normal people and not deviants. If a ton of people with battery less massively overpaneled grid tie play this game (of not being properly accounted for in planning) then it will not end well

If the export is shifted to peak with a battery then it’s probably net better for the POCO.

 

[noy897]

You may not increase the amount of PV approved under your NEM plan by more than 10% or 1kW, or you will be kicked off NEM 1.0 or 2.0. The way to go is to add an off grid system and a subpanel and batteries and split it off from your home.

And make sure your home owner's insurance in Ca will not be cancelled when you put panels on the roof.

Yes my intention is an offgrid system provided by delta pro ultra

 

[noy897]

Why Delta Pro vs the Luxpower 6k or SRNE10k people are getting experience with on the forum. Among dubiously permit ready options (I haven’t looked into the Ultra to see it’s certs).

When that Delta comes out it’ll start way behind on real world operational data and experience, so the real responsible date you should adopt it is even farther out.

I guess you are ongrid so you don’t need to be super diligent and responsible.

And presumably you don’t care about UL9540 (unless delta pro ultra has it), but you said you want permits.

I don’t think PG&E would kick you off for off grid.

I will research luxpower 6k or srne10k. the only reason I would go delta ultra is because its super easy and its plugged and play. Im a complete noob and rather have something that is very easy to setup.

 

[noy897]

So basically, if I get a system that's not connected to my current NEM 2.0 setup, I should be okay, right? This means that if I add more solar panels to my roof, set up a separate battery, and install a different panel to run some of my home appliances, it should work fine, as long as this new system doesn't link up with the old grid-tied one, right?

basically,
If I opt for the Delta Pro Ultra, here's how it'll work: I'll have a smart panel that allows me to use the batteries to run some of my appliances without relying on the grid. Simultaneously, the battery will stay connected to a high-voltage solar setup to recharge it. On top of that, I'll also charge my car using this system. To sum it up, I'll be powering my low-voltage appliances like lights and TV, as well as my car, off-grid. Based on my calculations, this should eventually result in monthly credits.