Enphase IQ8H Microinverter and 595W panel

[vasir13]

You have to install RSD anyway if it is a roof mount, so deferring optimizer decision is not free given that RSD is baked into optimizer.

Relocating the meter will require POCO permission and be subject to added costs/placement restrictions. It is likely not worth considering unless it is overhead service.

It isn’t a 3 phase cable (it is split phase which is Line/Line/Neutral, while 3 phase will be Line/Line/Line/Neutral), and you can compensate for the distance with larger gauge/cost with using aluminum feeder.

You don’t need pairing with batteries for 30% federal tax credit. You need it to have reasonable return on NEM3 though.

Thank you for the 3 phase correction. You are right, did not think of the RSD and optimizers that way. (still looking at defect rate of average optimizers), maybe spending more on RSD is a simple yet lasting solution?
Can you clarify "You need it to have reasonable return on NEM3 though." ? I dont plan to sell back power to Util.

 

[zanydroid]

Thank you for the 3 phase correction. You are right, did not think of the RSD and optimizers that way. (still looking at defect rate of average optimizers), maybe spending more on RSD is a simple yet lasting solution?
Can you clarify "You need it to have reasonable return on NEM3 though." ? I dont plan to sell back power to Util.

Optimizers add complexity and probably 2-3x the hardware of RSD. With TIGO you get per-panel monitoring with optimization; you can take off optimization but the gap is very low.

You need a battery if you're not selling back to utility.

You need an interconnection agreement if you operate in parallel with utility. If you leave the grid connection disconnected this is guaranteed; if you use some kind of on-demand charging with the grid connection connected then you need to ask around to see if the inverter is truly off-grid. There's a thread here about an AIO that's supposed to be off-grid (can't remember which one) but actually sends some power back. Note that zero export is orthogonal to parallel operation. You can be zero export while operating in parallel with grid.

If you're going to get it permitted anyway you'll probably at least break even on the interconnection fee with the somewhat more than peanuts but not good buyback rate NEM3 gives ($145). Not sure on your time to file it. Since I don't have aggressively anti-NEM/POCO political convictions and I prefer fully code compliant permitted installs anyway I always assume people will just do NEM3.

 

[frasere2]

Thank you for the 3 phase correction. You are right, did not think of the RSD and optimizers that way. (still looking at defect rate of average optimizers), maybe spending more on RSD is a simple yet lasting solution?
Can you clarify "You need it to have reasonable return on NEM3 though." ? I dont plan to sell back power to Util.

The optimizers are like $45 each for panels up to 700w. They produce an extra 10-25% of power per day (real world results) vs a string inverter only. Actually, since you are in San mateo, you can still take advantage of net metering and opt out of the batteries. Double check with peninsula clean energy (peninsulacleanenergy.com/solar-billing-plan/). This would dramatically lower your costs. You can use a much cheaper inverter then. Don't use the enphase microinverters unless you would like to reduce your energy per panel to 380w (that max throughput of that model microinverter). Using optimizers + string inverter will save you $10-15k vs the equivalent production from microinverters. Plus you don't have to buy the batteries so you save another $6-18k.

 

[zanydroid]

The optimizers are like $45 each for panels up to 700w. They produce an extra 10-25% of power per day (real world results) vs a string inverter only. Actually, since you are in San mateo, you can still take advantage of net metering and opt out of the batteries. Double check with peninsula clean energy (peninsulacleanenergy.com/solar-billing-plan/). This would dramatically lower your costs. You can use a much cheaper inverter then. Don't use the enphase microinverters unless you would like to reduce your energy per panel to 380w (that max throughput of that model microinverter). Using optimizers + string inverter will save you $10-15k vs the equivalent production from microinverters. Plus you don't have to buy the batteries so you save another $6-18k.

I don't think PCE Solar Billing Plan is equivalent to NEM2. Unless the roll over extends past generation to T&D (kind of doesn't make sense since PG&E receives the T&D).

Sure, still better than being fully on PG&E Solar Billing Plan.

 

[vasir13]

The optimizers are like $45 each for panels up to 700w. They produce an extra 10-25% of power per day (real world results) vs a string inverter only. Actually, since you are in San mateo, you can still take advantage of net metering and opt out of the batteries. Double check with peninsula clean energy (peninsulacleanenergy.com/solar-billing-plan/). This would dramatically lower your costs. You can use a much cheaper inverter then. Don't use the enphase microinverters unless you would like to reduce your energy per panel to 380w (that max throughput of that model microinverter). Using optimizers + string inverter will save you $10-15k vs the equivalent production from microinverters. Plus you don't have to buy the batteries so you save another $6-18k.

I live in Sacramento and will check with SMUD.

 

[Solar Guppy]

The optimizers are like $45 each for panels up to 700w. They produce an extra 10-25% of power per day (real world results) vs a string inverter only.

Do you have a citation for this claim?

My casual reading in addition knowing systems that have Tigo optimizers whom contacted me for review of the actual performance is more like 0-5%

 

[frasere2]

Do you have a citation for this claim?

My casual reading in addition knowing systems that have Tigo optimizers whom contacted me for review of the actual performance is more like 0-5%

My system produced 48.84 kwh yesterday with 6.44kwh reclaimed and 42.39kwh as a base. That's about 15% extra from Tigo optimizers. The previous day was 13.1%, the day prior 21.4%. I've seen it as low as about 9-10% on rainy days, but most sunny days its 15-20%.

 

[Solar Guppy]

My system produced 48.84 kwh yesterday with 6.44kwh reclaimed and 42.39kwh as a base. That's about 15% extra from Tigo optimizers. The previous day was 13.1%, the day prior 21.4%. I've seen it as low as about 9-10% on rainy days, but most sunny days its 15-20%.

Comparing daily harvest has too many variables, no two days are the same.

Panel temperature and Irradiance need to be data logged along with PV DC watts to calculate differences as clouds, wind and direction will change potential output. This also assumes loads are able to sink all energy produced, typically girdtie will be OK for this.

 

[frasere2]

Comparing daily harvest has too many variables, no two days are the same.

Panel temperature and Irradiance need to be data logged along with PV DC watts to calculate differences as clouds, wind and direction will change potential output. This also assumes loads are able to sink all energy produced, typically girdtie will be OK for this.

I think you are too much in the weeds on this one. I have real world data that shows over a month, that if it is not raining, the production from the optimizers is 15-25%. Honestly, no one "needs" to do the calculations you are suggesting. I myself have been caught in that trap before. This is also the problem so many installers have trying to "right size" systems when they can overbuild for not much more money and have a significant buffer to having to pay for electricity.

To put the results I speak of in financial terms, a panel will cost about $100-150, even if you get the cheap ones (assume 550w size). You then have to spend about $130-150 on racking for that panel, unless you go with a connection system imported from China directly. Personally, I think racking in the US is highway robbery, but that is what it is now. Then there is the inverter cost, which per panel is about another $100. So even if you get $0.20/w panels, you are looking at $340/panel to install, and that is without all of the BOS added in. At $41, the optimizer cost is 12%, so if it produces more than that % in power increase, it is a no brainer. Most people spend more than $340/panel fully installed (eg. at $2/watt, a 550w panel is $1100, so the $41 for the optimizer requires only a 3.7% improvement, 7.4% if you can fully install at $1/watt, which almost no one can do except for utility scale implementations).

I mean, don't install optimizers if you don't like the extra 15% in production for a cost increase of around 4-7%, it's as simple as that.

 

[Solar Guppy]

My racking for my 40 panels all in for IronRidge was $65 a panel, zero added cost on the inverter(s) they have capacity to spare ( Soils 5G ) one of the advantages of string inverters and one can get 11kw Hybrids for ~2200 now with 4 mppt channels ( Solis S6 ). If same orientation with similar amps when at VMP the optimizer has nothing to do.

If one needs optimizers for different orientations it is always lower cost to use multi channel string inverter and for shading, micro-inverters per panel are a better solution as optimizers don't work in full shade.

I know first hand about tigo's, a friend setup on one of his strings and compared to one without in the same array, same orientation different mppt channels to the Sunnyboy, made about 2-3% improvement, first hand, real world results.

So if it's working well for you great!, it's not typical performance even looking at the test case documents on the Tigo website.

 

[frasere2]

My racking for my 40 panels all in for IronRidge was $65 a panel, zero added cost on the inverter(s) they have capacity to spare ( Soils 5G ) one of the advantages of string inverters and one can get 11kw Hybrids for ~2200 now with 4 mppt channels ( Solis S6 ). If same orientation with similar amps when at VMP the optimizer has nothing to do.

If one needs optimizers for different orientations it is always lower cost to use multi channel string inverter and for shading, micro-inverters per panel are a better solution as optimizers don't work in full shade.

I know first hand about tigo's, a friend setup on one of his strings and compared to one without in the same array, same orientation different mppt channels to the Sunnyboy, made about 2-3% improvement, first hand, real world results.

So if it's working well for you great!, it's not typical performance even looking at the test case documents on the Tigo website.

If you wouldn’t mind, show the cost breakdown on the racking. With ironridge, it would be hard to get to $2600 total for 40 panels including all the parts. I just did an install with ironridge and it was closer to $100 per panel, so I have my doubts. But even $65 is highway robbery for parts that cost to make maybe $5-7.

As for Tigos only optimizing at 2-3%, I mean I guess they could be lying about the extra production, but that would be easy to determine so why would they lie? As I said 15-25% on sunny days, around 10 on rainy days. Maybe you had an old model, bc the ones now are worth every penny. I don’t have my panels tilted south, so maybe that’s part of the difference.

What’s your production now and what latitude? I’m at 37.7 latitude, 15.3kw, producing about 55-57kwh on sunny days. Just 40kwh today because it was overcast this afternoon and 10.6% recapture with the tigos. 24 540w panels10deg east west, 6 400w panels at 45deg east.

 

[Solar Guppy]

If you wouldn’t mind, show the cost breakdown on the racking.

For the latest addition of 12 panels ( have receipts in front of me ), the total racking for 140mph wind code was $668.78, which is all XR-100 rails ( 14' ft black ), T-bolts, Ground lugs, UFO 35mm spacer and mid clamp, bonded splices and flashfoot 2's. So that is exactly $55.74 a panel.

I use Greentech renewables ( Tampa ) which is half the cost of any on the online stores and the major savings is picking up with my truck at the store so no shipping charges.

What’s your production now and what latitude? I’m at 37.7 latitude, 15.3kw, producing about 55-57kwh on sunny days. Just 40kwh today because it was overcast this afternoon and 10.6% recapture with the tigos. 24 540w panels10deg east west, 6 400w panels at 45deg east.

Daily generation is in the 60-67 kWh range in non-cloudy days past week, which 36 panels of 40 ( 14.1 kW active, 15.6 kW installed ) working on a solution to deal with the edge of cloud spikes so all 40 can be in service and not go over my hard 10kW limit with Duke Energy
net-meter tier.

Latitude is 28degree, due south and tilt is ~26 degrees ( roof slope )

 

[frasere2]

For the latest addition of 12 panels ( have receipts in front of me ), the total racking for 140mph wind code was $668.78, which is all XR-100 rails ( 14' ft black ), T-bolts, Ground lugs, UFO 35mm spacer and mid clamp, bonded splices and flashfoot 2's. So that is exactly $55.74 a panel.

I use Greentech renewables ( Tampa ) which is half the cost of any on the online stores and the major savings is picking up with my truck at the store so no shipping charges.



Daily generation is in the 60-67 kWh range in non-cloudy days past week, which 36 panels of 40 ( 14.1 kW active, 15.6 kW installed ) working on a solution to deal with the edge of cloud spikes so all 40 can be in service and not go over my hard 10kW limit with Duke Energy
net-meter tier.

Latitude is 28degree, due south and tilt is ~26 degrees ( roof slope )

Based on my purchases there, not sure I'd call Greentech a low cost store, but never mind that.
The flashfoot2 are about $15 each, you need 2-3 per panel, more in high wind zones (I had 16 for 6 large panels).
Rails are about $4-5/foot ($51 for 11 feet, or $29 for 7ft), so for a single 42" wide panel in portrait, you need about 8 feet, assuming a few inches of waste. More rail is needed in landscape orientations.
The cost so far is is (2.67x15=40, 5x8=40, 40+40=80).
Now add in the UFOs ($3 each, you need about 2 per panel, depends on # panels in row), other clamps ($6 each for hidden clamps, that's the greentech price), and splices ($7 each), you are quickly around $90-100. Not sure how one can get these items for cheaper unless you are buying at large scale or just not using as many parts. I mean, I can get all of these parts direct from China for about $10-15 all in per panel, with transportation, but we're just talking about US prices.