Enphase IQ8s will now AC couple with Schneider XW Pro

[wheisenburg]

With their newest firmware version 521-00005-r06-v02.61.01 the Enphase IQ8s are now able to AC couple with Schneider XW Pro inverters. I had a 35 panel IQ8 grid tied system installed in Aug of 2022. I added a battery backup to the system in Dec 2022. While the system did work fine as a UPS backup system, I was never able to get the IQ8s to produce power when operating off grid. This of course meant that in the event of a grid outage, my available power would be limited to whatever was in the batteries at the time of the failure. Alternatively, you could still charge the batteries with a generator.

I was never looking for a totally off grid solution. I just wanted something that would work OK during an outage. I still wouldn't recommend this configuration if you are truly building an off grid system. For that DC coupled is definitely the way to go. For adding back up to an existing grid tied system, I would say that this is now a solution that will work "Good Enough". Now at this point I have not done extensive testing, but I have heard from at least one other person that they also have this configuration working. I can't say for certain that all the issues are completely solved. I can say that it wasn't working at all and now it does. This is huge progress in the right direction

One thing I have learned in all this, is that just because a product advertises that it will AC couple, does not mean that the configuration you are planning to use will actually work. Manufactures (and retailers too) don't really maintain any type of list that says these PV Grid Tied Inverters will AC Couple with this Hybrid Inverter.

I'm actually mostly happy with the Enphase IQ8s. They are efficient. They are reliable. Their software works well. I had two goals for this system. First generate most of my own electricity and insulate me from future rate increases. Second, provide me with more reliable power so that my house could at least temporally operate independent of the grid.

The Schneider XW Pro 6848 Inverters are also great in terms of the hardware. They have great surge capacity. They handle out of balance loads. They are rock solid and reliable. The software however, is kind of a mess. It is like they layered features on top of features, without really thinking things through. There are hundreds of settings that interact in unexpected ways. If you wade through the configuration process and get everything sorted out, good for you. Luckily I have full net metering. I can push power to the grid and pull it back later for zero cost. I am not trying to do any time of use load shifting or self consumption. My inverter simply needs to sit there and do nothing until there is an outage. Then it should take over and produce power. It was still quite challenging to get this basic configuration to work. Getting it to actually recharge from solar when off grid, was certainly a goal, but even without that working I was still better off. Now technically, it was the Enphase inverters that were refusing to turn on and stay on. The comments on the Schneider software are still applicable.

In reading through this forum it appears that many people are having trouble setting these XW Pro 6848 Inverters up for things like:

1. Zero Export.
2. Grid Sell.
3. Peak Shaving.
4. Time of use shifting.

In many cases it is actually possible to do these things. From what I have read, it is mostly a problem navigating all these settings and coming up with a combination that actually does what you want. I had no problems setting up the hardware. That all seemed very logical and straight forward (other than lifting the inverters unto the wall, they are very heavy).

In any case, I feel like I have made a major break through today.

 

[Consumerbot3418]

I'm using IQ7's with a pair of Sunny Islands. I had some trouble until I found the right grid profile, which actually mentioned the XW Pro in the description, if I recall correctly. Seems like it's a bit of a trick to get AC coupling to work for both on and off-grid purposes. I've yet to try AC coupling the IQ7s on the XW Pro I recently installed. Hopefully it'll work without too much tinkering!

In reading through this forum it appears that many people are having trouble setting these XW Pro 6848 Inverters up for things like:

1. Zero Export.
2. Grid Sell.
3. Peak Shaving.
4. Time of use shifting.

In many cases it is actually possible to do these things. From what I have read, it is mostly a problem navigating all these settings and coming up with a combination that actually does what you want.

Yeah, I've been having a little bit of difficulty, but I think I'm starting to get it figured out. There's a lot of different settings, some of which take priority over other ones, so it's not exactly obvious at first glance how they all interact. Think I've got it behaving the way I want, mostly, so I intend to document it in my own thread at some point.

 

[wheisenburg]

Yeah, I've been having a little bit of difficulty, but I think I'm starting to get it figured out.

Good for you. There are so many systems out there and so many possible ways that customers might want them configured. I know some manufactures offer support for commissioning these system. I have to tell you though that I feel sorry for some installer that knows how to physically install and wire up this equipment sitting there trying to configure "time of use" and "grid sell" for a customer. I think the sol arc software is easier to configure, but the Schneider hardware is really good. Especially if you need more than one inverter. If you have to parallel sol arc there are all kinds of connections, fuses, and breakers that need to be wired external to the inverters. That's why dual sol arcs are often installed with 8" or 12" wire gutters. They need a place to install AC terminal blocks. Generally they will also use a bunch of giant 200 amp manual transfer switches to allow for grid / generator bypass . The PDP panel contains, organizes, and makes all those interconnections very easy.

There are some limits on Schneider equipment, but on my house I would have to work pretty hard to exceed 14,400 watts. My 2250 sqft house (not including the 1100 sqft finished basement) has a 2 ton A/C. It only draws about 6 running amps. It keeps the house cool just fine. It is true however that I can't really turn the A/C off and then switch it back on again just before coming home. Once the house warms up, it takes hours to cool it back off. I have a newer house with 6 inch framing. It is very well insulated, but it is a lot of cubic feet. So with my dryer, my wall oven and my A/C all running, I am still at 12,000 watts. If I had an electric water heater (that could come on at any time), I would not be able to run my wall oven at the same time as the dryer.

For off grid where you aren't going to use all these complicated grid interactive configurations, I think the Schneiders are an excellent choice.

 

[zanydroid]

My mental model is that Schneider is good for some kind of value added service where you have long term staff managing a lot of them and know all the in and outs + documenting them in your own playbooks. With most support coming internally rather than from Schneider (or maybe since you sell enough or have an account of big enough size they give you better support). And likely the hardware robustness for critical off grid helps a lot.

If you are one dude/dudette/etc managing a stack for your own house or cabin, that may well be pain. And certainly objectively inefficient unless you really like doing it.

 

[wheisenburg]

My mental model is that Schneider is good for some kind of value added service where you have long term staff managing a lot of them and know all the in and outs + documenting them in your own playbooks. With most support coming internally rather than from Schneider (or maybe since you sell enough or have an account of big enough size they give you better support). And likely the hardware robustness for critical off grid helps a lot.

If you are one dude/dudette/etc managing a stack for your own house or cabin, that may well be pain. And certainly objectively inefficient unless you really like doing it.

I tend to agree if you are using the advanced features like grid sell, and time of use. If you have very basic requirements for an off grid system, like "Charge the battery when it gets low and stop charging when it is full", it can work pretty well. Setting this type of use case up is not that difficult. I went through a fair amount of pain trying to get IQ8s to AC couple. It turns out that was really an Enphase issue and not anything specific to the Schneider Inverters. Still I would not recommend AC coupled for an off grid system.

Setting up the hardware for a multi-inverter setup on the other hand is very easy. The hardware and wiring required to do all the parallel connections on other inverters can be significant. I think Schneider could benefit from doing a series of videos going through different use cases and documenting how to set those up using their configuration application.

As far as the hardware, there are a few things they could do better.

1. There is a stated limit of 60 amps of pass through current. Many competing inverters now allow you to pass the full two hundred amps through to your loads panel. This is not a problem for my house. For people with a couple large A/C systems, an electric hot water heater, an electric dryer and an electric range, they could easily hit this limit. Also, while they tell you there is a 60 amp limit, their "multi-inverter connection kit" comes with a second set of 60 amp breakers. Since these are paralleled together they won't actually trip until 120 amps. The inverters will also supply up to 12,000 of surge current each meaning that even when in invert mode the inverters combined together can deliver 100 amps. So while they say don't exceed that 60 amp limit, the entire system is designed so that limit can be exceeded. It's a little like the dealer selling you a Corvette that goes 180 miles an hour, but then telling you that if they exceed 120 mph, the tires may blow out causing a crash,

2. While the Schneider system is modular, most competitive systems already have sufficient charge controller capacity built in. Again not a problem for me since my original system was a micro-inverter based IQ8 system. For people that are using DC coupled solar, they are going to need to buy some additional hardware. For an off grid system AC coupled is just not a viable solution. AC coupled might work as supplemental power on a mostly DC system.

3. Horizontal wall space requirements are significant. One good thing is that the wall brackets and components are designed to allow the units to be placed with zero horizontal spacing. If you need a full system with an AC disconnect, a solar combiner box, a grid panel, a load panel, three inverters, a PDP panel, and three charge controller, you are going to need a lot of space. The newest EG4 18K and the matching batteries stack vertically. You will still need some of the other items, and maybe a transfer switch for bypassing the inverter. Two of these 18Ks and a couple of the batteries would be a fairly solid system and would not take up near as much horizontal space.,

 

[zanydroid]

Still I would not recommend AC coupled for an off grid system.

I had a thought lately about the biggest MW/GW-scale usage of AC coupling, which is in adding storage to utility-scale solar... it is much more mature and prevalent than in the residential/DIY solar world, and that is an on-grid use case.

They'll probably have dark start / can't make a microgrid / ... problems just like the rest of us.

Many competing inverters now allow you to pass the full two hundred amps through to your loads panel

On the flip side, the XW I believe allows you to trigger a remote relay to disconnect from grid. I don't believe EG4 has released the necessary accessory yet for the 18kpv (it might be that big panel they showed at the recent convention).

3. Horizontal wall space requirements are significant. One good thing is that the wall brackets and components are designed to allow the units to be placed with zero horizontal spacing. If you need a full system with an AC disconnect, a solar combiner box, a grid panel, a load panel, three inverters, a PDP panel, and three charge controller, you are going to need a lot of space. The newest EG4 18K and the matching batteries stack vertically. You will still need some of the other items, and maybe a transfer switch for bypassing the inverter. Two of these 18Ks and a couple of the batteries would be a fairly solid system and would not take up near as much horizontal space.,

It's not just horizontal space requirement (which is a law of physics). It also officially wants the space in front to be clear too (I tried to visualize how a XW system would work in my tiny 2 car garage and it didn't game out nicely at all).

 

[wheisenburg]

the XW I believe allows you to trigger a remote relay to disconnect from grid

They do support using an internal relay contact to trigger an external contactor. It adds more stuff, more wiring, and more configuration.

They also recently added a "Backup Control Switch" to their line up. This is essentially a pre-packaged version of the hardware required to perform this external contactor function. Once the inverter is configured for the "External Contactor Enabled" mode, the primary inverter uses the AC2 (generator) input to sense good AC from the grid side of the switch. If good AC is detected the switch is closed. This feeds grid power in to AC1 (and the main loads panel that is wired in parallel). I believe in this configuration the relays for AC1 are always on. There is some additional feedback that allows the inverter to detect that the switch is closed.

If AC2 is detected as bad, the switch is turned off. The feed back loop will detect that the switch has now been opened and the invert mode will be activated. Essentially, this allows the external switch to open and close the connection between the grid and all three inverters.

The relays in the inverters all remain closed. The reason this is required is that without the external switch, not all the relays will open at exactly the same time. So if there is a loss of grid power when the inverter is in pass through mode and a large load is being supplied, the last relay to open will be carrying all the current.

Note that because AC2 is now being used as part of the control logic for the contactor, it is no longer available as a generator input.

 

[SniperSolar]

With their newest firmware version 521-00005-r06-v02.61.01 the Enphase IQ8s are now able to AC couple with Schneider XW Pro inverters. I had a 35 panel IQ8 grid tied system installed in Aug of 2022. I added a battery backup to the system in Dec 2022. While the system did work fine as a UPS backup system, I was never able to get the IQ8s to produce power when operating off grid. This of course meant that in the event of a grid outage, my available power would be limited to whatever was in the batteries at the time of the failure. Alternatively, you could still charge the batteries with a generator.

I was never looking for a totally off grid solution. I just wanted something that would work OK during an outage. I still wouldn't recommend this configuration if you are truly building an off grid system. For that DC coupled is definitely the way to go. For adding back up to an existing grid tied system, I would say that this is now a solution that will work "Good Enough". Now at this point I have not done extensive testing, but I have heard from at least one other person that they also have this configuration working. I can't say for certain that all the issues are completely solved. I can say that it wasn't working at all and now it does. This is huge progress in the right direction

One thing I have learned in all this, is that just because a product advertises that it will AC couple, does not mean that the configuration you are planning to use will actually work. Manufactures (and retailers too) don't really maintain any type of list that says these PV Grid Tied Inverters will AC Couple with this Hybrid Inverter.

I'm actually mostly happy with the Enphase IQ8s. They are efficient. They are reliable. Their software works well. I had two goals for this system. First generate most of my own electricity and insulate me from future rate increases. Second, provide me with more reliable power so that my house could at least temporally operate independent of the grid.

The Schneider XW Pro 6848 Inverters are also great in terms of the hardware. They have great surge capacity. They handle out of balance loads. They are rock solid and reliable. The software however, is kind of a mess. It is like they layered features on top of features, without really thinking things through. There are hundreds of settings that interact in unexpected ways. If you wade through the configuration process and get everything sorted out, good for you. Luckily I have full net metering. I can push power to the grid and pull it back later for zero cost. I am not trying to do any time of use load shifting or self consumption. My inverter simply needs to sit there and do nothing until there is an outage. Then it should take over and produce power. It was still quite challenging to get this basic configuration to work. Getting it to actually recharge from solar when off grid, was certainly a goal, but even without that working I was still better off. Now technically, it was the Enphase inverters that were refusing to turn on and stay on. The comments on the Schneider software are still applicable.

In reading through this forum it appears that many people are having trouble setting these XW Pro 6848 Inverters up for things like:

1. Zero Export.
2. Grid Sell.
3. Peak Shaving.
4. Time of use shifting.

In many cases it is actually possible to do these things. From what I have read, it is mostly a problem navigating all these settings and coming up with a combination that actually does what you want. I had no problems setting up the hardware. That all seemed very logical and straight forward (other than lifting the inverters unto the wall, they are very heavy).

In any case, I feel like I have made a major break through today.

I was also thrilled that the Enphase update allowed the IQ8As and XW Pro to AC couple; however, it only seems to be working halfway for me.

When we kick off, everything hums along at 60Hz, we're all good. The batteries charge up with the solar; and when we get to a full charge, the XWs shift to 64Hz. and the IQ8As turn off. Nice. Challenge is that when the batteries drop back down below the recharge level, the XWs stay at 64Hz indefinitely. I can only get back to 60Hz. by turning the XWs off and back on. Do you have the same challenge; or does your frequency shifting work in both directions?

Assuming you do have it working in both directions, would you mind sharing the grid profiles set on your Enphase and Schneiders? I have custom settings on both right now on my end; am wondering if that might be the issue.

 

[wheisenburg]

I was also thrilled that the Enphase update allowed the IQ8As and XW Pro to AC couple; however, it only seems to be working halfway for me.

When we kick off, everything hums along at 60Hz, we're all good. The batteries charge up with the solar; and when we get to a full charge, the XWs shift to 64Hz. and the IQ8As turn off. Nice. Challenge is that when the batteries drop back down below the recharge level, the XWs stay at 64Hz indefinitely. I can only get back to 60Hz. by turning the XWs off and back on. Do you have the same challenge; or does your frequency shifting work in both directions?

Assuming you do have it working in both directions, would you mind sharing the grid profiles set on your Enphase and Schneiders? I have custom settings on both right now on my end; am wondering if that might be the issue.

I have not experienced that. However I have only really tested with this for a few hours on a day that was partly cloudy and in the winter. I would also check the firmware version. I had gone to v1.18 on insight, but that version seemed to cause the Insite Local app to keep freezing up. I dropped back to v1.17 and have had not problems since. In some of my prior testing I would get the inverters to work at times at very low production for a while. Then the Schneiders would send a short 64 HZ burst. Like maybe 1 second. After that the PV inverters would not come back on without being power cycled. I never saw the Schneiders stick in the 64 HZ mode. I didn't experience the 64 HZ burst after the upgrade, but like I said, I haven't done extensive testing.


Are you running with SOC enabled? I had some problems with that so I went back to voltage driven. Also in the devices configuration screen there are advanced settings for:

AC Coupling Enabled
AC PV Charge SOC Limit 90%

Battery Type Custom
Charge Cycle 2 Stage
SOC Control Enable Disabled

Bulk/Boost Voltage Set Point 54.5
Absorption Voltage Set Point 54.5

These items are supposed to control the max charge that will be pushed into the batteries

I am running:

XW Pro: Grid Code - IEEE 1547a-2014 Firmware - 2.04.00
Insight Firmware - v1.17
Enphase: Grid Code - IEEE 1547 default 2015 Firmware - 521-00005-r06-v02.61.01

 

[SniperSolar]

I have not experienced that. However I have only really tested with this for a few hours on a day that was partly cloudy and in the winter. I would also check the firmware version. I had gone to v1.18 on insight, but that version seemed to cause the Insite Local app to keep freezing up. I dropped back to v1.17 and have had not problems since. In some of my prior testing I would get the inverters to work at times at very low production for a while. Then the Schneiders would send a short 64 HZ burst. Like maybe 1 second. After that the PV inverters would not come back on without being power cycled. I never saw the Schneiders stick in the 64 HZ mode. I didn't experience the 64 HZ burst after the upgrade, but like I said, I haven't done extensive testing.


Are you running with SOC enabled? I had some problems with that so I went back to voltage driven. Also in the devices configuration screen there are advanced settings for:

AC Coupling Enabled
AC PV Charge SOC Limit 90%

Battery Type Custom
Charge Cycle 2 Stage
SOC Control Enable Disabled

Bulk/Boost Voltage Set Point 54.5
Absorption Voltage Set Point 54.5

These items are supposed to control the max charge that will be pushed into the batteries

I am running:

XW Pro: Grid Code - IEEE 1547a-2014 Firmware - 2.04.00
Insight Firmware - v1.17
Enphase: Grid Code - IEEE 1547 default 2015 Firmware - 521-00005-r06-v02.61.01

Thanks - super helpful!

My XWs are on 2.04.00 B29; Insight on 1.18 B41; and Enphase on 521-00005-r06-v02.61.01.

Going to play around a little more!!

 

[hogback]

Maybe not helpful, but I've been using one xw+ with the rest of the schneider equipment, not panels or batteries (4x simpliphi 3.5s) of course, and it's been running solid for 5 years. Off-grid, dc coupled, 2 mppt 60 150s. I would use Schneider again. When I was originally commissioning, altestore was quite responsive and answered my questions. The last time I had a question, they referred me to schneider directly. I did not follow up, but perhaps schneider is doing better now in terms of support. Any one have the contact for the fellow who speaks on the schneider webinars?

 

[wheisenburg]

Maybe not helpful, but I've been using one xw+ with the rest of the schneider equipment, not panels or batteries (4x simpliphi 3.5s) of course, and it's been running solid for 5 years. Off-grid, dc coupled, 2 mppt 60 150s. I would use Schneider again. When I was originally commissioning, altestore was quite responsive and answered my questions. The last time I had a question, they referred me to schneider directly. I did not follow up, but perhaps schneider is doing better now in terms of support. Any one have the contact for the fellow who speaks on the schneider webinars?

I hear the DC coupled is very solid either on or off grid. The Schneider works great as "Emergency Backup", but the AC coupled when off-grid is dicey. It seems to be working OK, but I feel like I need to do more testing.