Family property conflicts

[DPC]

Is anyone here familiar with Section 322 of the criminal code as it applies to family members putting family owned assets at a recreation property in their own name to the exclusion of other family members use?

I'm struggling with an aunt that has put two boats in her name that are the only access to a cottage.
Effectively this keeps 2/3 of the family from having easy access...

These boats were the property of my grandfather who died 25 years ago and since they were not considered any ones own personal boat no one paid much attention too it until now.

Any thoughts from anyone in this situation before and how I can navigate this without legal expensive of hiring a lawyer?

 

[D71]

Who has been paying to keep the boats operational that everyone has been using. I find it hard to believe they were not divided up during probate. Have you been paying your fair share to maintain the boats?

 

[DPC]

The one who holds the keys right now was the executor of the will.
The other owner my father is elderly and lives in Florida rarely ever coming to Canada.
These issues were never settled because no one wanted to deal with it I guess.
The status quo worked out fine for my aunt and not one else wanted to rock the boat.

No one else has been able to user them in 15 years. ( I was not going to crash the place cut locks off doors and start a feud but its pretty much a feud now )
50% of this property has been handed down to me, so legally I can not be denied access to the property but getting there and opening the doors without a grinder is the issue.

My solution was maybe we should agree to sell split up the assets and walk away or a buy out of one partner or another.
This has not been excepted as an option.
My offer to pay taxes this year even rebuffed its a mess...

Its the boat thing thats biggest hurdle rented a boat to bring a real estate broker up to assess the property and condition of the buildings.
I don't see any choices that don't involve lawyers and a court order to sell the property.

Any conversations about sharing the property and putting up my own building have been met with no, and piles of bills pushed across a table for things no one authorized them to change or do.
Place needs to be rewired, I wanted to put in a new solar system and hot water in the kitchen.
all NOs...

But the main problem is how do I deal with the boats.
Is there a mechanism for getting back property that has been converted from jointly own to personal thats not going to end in a court room?
I already concluded I have to force the sale of the property and boats and motors came with property.

Should I just let them keep them ( maybe 7,000-10,000 worth of assets have been converted ).

 

[D71]

No one has been able to user them in 15 years.

In the absence of a Will in the USA the first line of family are usually the heirs…wife then children then up to probate if No Will… ie: your aunt if daughter of your grandfather is heir. Their portion if joint with your own parent is usually not deemed as a willed portion it reverts to surviving family member if not divided. Why wise family divide up and end probate in the clear….vs remaining in joint share. The joint shares Causes problems.

If the aunt has maintained the old boats for 25 years plus has all the receipts then the boats are hers. By possession-abandonment. If not stated otherwise in the Grandfather’s Will and executed.
After X amount of time rights are vacated and abandoned. I’d say go talk to lawyer because where you live as list Canada might be different but 15 years later - you are not getting anything would be my guess. Criminal codes have Statute of Limitations here. Probably there too. 15 years ago and probate was not brought to judgement then it is probably how it is. Aunt is free

Estate’s in probate often break up families. Why Will and executing it properly in timely manner is important. Seek legal.. let us know.

Not a lawyer but dealt with probate here few times

 

[DPC]

The current legal structure of ownership is tenants in Common and there was a will but it only stated they would share use and costs of the property since they could not share the place was locked up and thats how it stayed for over a decade.
Now My Dad is at that age I need to get his affairs in order and clean this mess up

The only reason I can think of to put both boats in here name was to exclude anyone else from using the other boat.
An aluminum boat could be left on dry land, a motor could be fogged and left in a storage shed...
One would have been good enough to go up and use if she wanted...

I guess I really need to get lawyers involved.
Not much more harm can be done.
Cousins wont talk to me aunt will only reply to emails with one or two word answers.
The other excluded third of the family from a another aunt has also been excluded from using the property when that aunt was excluded in the will.
Its a real mess let me tell you ( My Dad and the first Aunt... to be honest screwed their sister )
I promised them the use of the property and anything I built up there as a way to make reparations for the past

The aunt in question with all the keys probably thought when my Dad died she would just get everything...

 

[Checkthisout]

The current legal structure of ownership is tenants in Common and there was a will but it only stated they would share use and costs of the property since they could not share the place was locked up and thats how it stayed for over a decade.
Now My Dad is at that age I need to get his affairs in order and clean this mess up

The only reason I can think of to put both boats in here name was to exclude anyone else from using the other boat.
An aluminum boat could be left on dry land, a motor could be fogged and left in a storage shed...
One would have been good enough to go up and use if she wanted...

I guess I really need to get lawyers involved.
Not much more harm can be done.
Cousins wont talk to me aunt will only reply to emails with one or two word answers.
The other excluded third of the family from a another aunt has also been excluded from using the property when that aunt was excluded in the will.
Its a real mess let me tell you ( My Dad and the first Aunt... to be honest screwed their sister )
I promised them the use of the property and anything I built up there as a way to make reparations for the past

The aunt in question with all the keys probably thought when my Dad died she would just get everything...

Who gives a shit about boats. Just buy your own boat to access the property.

Regretfully it was allowed to fester long enough that you really may have lost all meaningful rights other than forcing a sale and splitting the cash. Sounds like you would rather have the property though.

Can the lot be subdivided or something?

My statements and questions are just based on random assumptions so take them with a grain of salt.

 

[DPC]

I appreciate your suggestion.

I built the motor out of parts on one of those boats.
I put a lot of time and effort into a lot of the things I built and did and having someone in your family tell you its mine now.
That kind of sticks it to me in a way I feel quite offended by...

Yes I should have done something years ago.
But I just didn't want to get involved in a fight.

I have a cousin who is trying to mediate something to prevent the sale of the property.
I was going to take some of the proceeds of the same and give them to his mom because she got screwed all those years ago.
Its not so much about money and things as it is about greed and selfish relatives..

Yes I could partition the property I guess but that is something they are also resisting

All this for a log cabin thats a shack with rot in the walls and doors that don;t fully open from years of neglect.
Nice steel roof on it though, but what was the point of that because if you jack up the cabin to fix the logs and put a foundation under it the tin will buckle and move...

All these things contributed to arguments about how money should be spent and my aunt did stupid things rather than ask for help from those of us that knew what we were doing.

The value is no longer in the buildings but the 1.5 acre plot of island in a secluded bay.
I put a lot of effort and toil into building things only to be told I cant go up and use them.
My kids grew up and never used them...
Thats what hurts the most.

 

[Checkthisout]

I built the motor out of parts on one of those boats.
I put a lot of time and effort into a lot of the things I built and did and having someone in your family tell you its mine now.
That kind of sticks it to me in a way I feel quite offended by...

I can only say I totally get it but as an outside observer looking from above you probably have to let it go, especially if it's titled in their name.

Yes I should have done something years ago.
But I just didn't want to get involved in a fight.

Yes. It's never safe to assume that people will do the right thing.

I have a cousin who is trying to mediate something to prevent the sale of the property.
I was going to take some of the proceeds of the same and give them to his mom because she got screwed all those years ago.
Its not so much about money and things as it is about greed and selfish relatives..

So once again, you're like me. Your reaction is to show anger at the obvious injustice. However, in this case, you'll actually win by playing the victim and you have every right to as you truly are. I would encourage acting the exact opposite way and heavily sharing how it truly makes you feel with the other relatives. You're hurt and you feel screwed out of something you're deeply attached to and you're heartbroken and feeling totally hosed.

Yes I could partition the property I guess but that is something they are also resisting

Force of law is on your side.

Showing anger only justifies their ill treatment of you, right? People conveniently forget the behavior that led to the consequence and now all you are is some angry jerk whos trying to take their stuff.

All this for a log cabin thats a shack with rot in the walls and doors that don;t fully open from years of neglect.
Nice steel roof on it though, but what was the point of that because if you jack up the cabin to fix the logs and put a foundation under it the tin will buckle and move...

Then you need to consider that maybe you weren't contributing when you should have been? This may not be the case at all but.....

All these things contributed to arguments about how money should be spent and my aunt did stupid things rather than ask for help from those of us that knew what we were doing.

If you know what you're doing then step up just start doing things. Ignore any resistance that doesn't come from lawful orders. An aunt yelling at you shouldn't stop a new roof from going onto the place.

The value is no longer in the buildings but the 1.5 acre plot of island in a secluded bay.
I put a lot of effort and toil into building things only to be told I cant go up and use them.
My kids grew up and never used them...
Thats what hurts the most.

Yeah. If you can't get over it, then exact final revenge by forcing a sale of the property.

 

[DPC]

I don't believe in revenge.
But I do believe in trying to do whats right and close this chapter.

 

[Checkthisout]

I don't believe in revenge.
But I do believe in trying to do whats right and close this chapter.

If you won't be able to disassociate from the relatives I.E. you would end up sharing or having the property right next door where you would have to look at their ugly, god damn, moronic faces anytime you wanted a relaxing weekend at the cabin then I would just force the sale of it all and move on.

Lesson learned the very hard way on an opportunity gone for good.

The money from the sale may allow you to purchase a similar but maybe smaller property in the area?

Could you perhaps buy your aunt or the offending parties out?

 

[ksmithaz1]

Buy them out or petition to partition, make them buy you out. Been down this road, families should never have shared assets like this, it always leads to issues. Once there is single ownership you can be magnanimous if its all yours, ... or not as you see fit.

 

[D71]

If it never mattered before why does it suddenly matter now. Again if it wasn’t worth fighting over before why fight now? The statute of limitation may apply. Lot of our laws are tied to England …. We threw out what we didn’t want and kept or changed other parts. Canada is like here where the probate laws can vary from province like they can here for State.

Who has the Property Deed for Name and Title? Exacting importance.

Were there any written agreements? This is a requirement.

Co-Owning Property with Family in Canada: A Comprehensive Guide

Guide to co-owning property with family in Canada: agreements, finances, market dynamics, legal considerations, and managing challenges.

www.loyalhomes.ca

Sample from link:

“‘’’’

Understanding Co-Ownership Arrangements​

Co-ownership of property in Canada involves complex arrangements that require careful consideration and understanding. Let's look at two critical components: the essence of co-ownership agreements and the distinct differences between joint tenants and tenants in common. These insights will help you navigate the co-ownership process more confidently and clearly.

The Essence of Co-Ownership Agreements​

A co-ownership agreement is more than a legal formality; it's a blueprint for harmonious property management among family members. This document should comprehensively cover:

• Financial Contributions: Clearly outline how much each party contributes towards the purchase price, ongoing maintenance, and improvements. It specifies how mortgage payments, property taxes, insurance, and utilities are split.
• Usage Rights: Define who has access to the property and when. It is particularly important for vacation homes or investment properties.
• Dispute Resolution: Establish a fair process for resolving disagreements through mediation or other means.
• Exit Strategy: Detail the process if one party wants to sell their share, including first refusal rights for other co-owners or valuation methods.
• Succession Planning: Outline what happens in the event of a co-owner's death or incapacity, considering the different implications of joint tenancy and tenancy in common.

Joint Tenants vs. Tenants in Common​

The choice between joint tenancy and tenancy in common impacts how property is transferred and shared. Consider these points:

• Joint Tenancy: Ideal for those who want equal shares and a straightforward transfer to surviving owners. It suits family members who desire equal involvement and commitment.
• Tenancy in Common: Offers flexibility in ownership shares, suitable for co-owners contributing different amounts or wanting specific legacy plans for their share.
• “‘’’’’’

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

sneak out there one night and burn both boats to the water line. or dump some corrosive shit into the oil sumps. just do not get caught. then buy a small boat and ignore her from that point forward.

she does not seem to be the sort I would want my wife or children around.

 

[D71]

sneak out there one night and burn both boats to the water line. or dump some corrosive shit into the oil sumps. just do not get caught. then buy a small boat and ignore her from that point forward.

she does not seem to be the sort I would want my wife or children around.

That might sound good.

As I last asked OP was there an agreement - what type of agreement. Laws. Most important who has their name on property deed and such. The aunt might have paid for most everything last 25 years. We know what OP side of story which is probably bias.

OP admitted they let this fester out of control for 25 years while one party gained KNOWN control for years . OP Admits “father and Aunt double crossed another Aunt over inheritance”. Already bad actions at work. Op now wants in where they wanted out and none before. Op’s own father is on death bed…but if nothing was drawn up the property probably goes to aunt. Depends on agreements if any. The Aunt while it reads is not a good person but was allowed for at least last 15 years to have total control. That won’t work well in court for OP which allowed it. OP might not have a claim anyway. Probably no legal claim. That has-to be in agreements. OP kids already missed it because OP allowed it.

Looking at farm land in Ontario 2023 an acre is stated value of ~$4800. The cabin is admitted bad order needs significant repair. Just looked Seen cabin in great shape and ~2 acres ~$48,000.00 for that area. The OP admitted the boats were already 25 years old belonged to grandfather so no doubt older. Needed repairs. OP states boats so old in disrepair so cobbled one together to run ~10-15 years ago. Boats go down hill fast as you know from living in japan an island.

I would walk away. He walked away for 25 years. Probably best to keep walking. May have no legal claim as grand child anyway. Be ashamed to be put in prison over letting something go for ~25 years but now want resolution to a division that should have been known but not settled and was even ignored for so long. .

I don’t know OP …do you? The OP might be the bad guy. Bad ppl often call the cops first and other party is then the bad guy. If Aunt calls police on OP and was the bad person then police often side with caller. Not right but it is how that often works. Every fight seen or been in the winner goes to jail-threatened with prison. The loser even if started it is a pity party….more so
The person standing when police arrive usually goes to jail. The person that got police involved usually doesn’t go to jail. Once in jail the final realization will be principle which was not used for ~25 years ….. probably be a bad decision to do as feel.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

That might sound good.

As I last asked OP was there an agreement - what type of agreement. Laws. Most important who has their name on property deed and such. The aunt might have paid for most everything last 25 years. We know what OP side of story which is probably bias.

OP admitted they let this fester out of control for 25 years while one party gained KNOWN control for years . OP Admits “father and Aunt double crossed another Aunt over inheritance”. Already bad actions at work. Op now wants in where they wanted out and none before. Op’s own father is on death bed…but if nothing was drawn up the property probably goes to aunt. Depends on agreements if any. The Aunt while it reads is not a good person but was allowed for at least last 15 years to have total control. That won’t work well in court for OP which allowed it. OP might not have a claim anyway. Probably no legal claim. That has-to be in agreements. OP kids already missed it because OP allowed it.

Looking at farm land in Ontario 2023 an acre is stated value of ~$4800. The cabin is admitted bad order needs significant repair. Just looked Seen cabin in great shape and ~2 acres ~$48,000.00 for that area. The OP admitted the boats were already 25 years old belonged to grandfather so no doubt older. Needed repairs. OP states boats so old in disrepair so cobbled one together to run ~10-15 years ago. Boats go down hill fast as you know from living in japan an island.

I would walk away. He walked away for 25 years. Probably best to keep walking. May have no legal claim as grand child anyway. Be ashamed to be put in prison over letting something go for ~25 years but now want resolution to a division that should have been known but not settled and was even ignored for so long. .

I don’t know OP …do you? The OP might be the bad guy. Bad ppl often call the cops first and other party is then the bad guy. If Aunt calls police on OP and was the bad person then police often side with caller. Not right but it is how that often works. Every fight seen or been in the winner goes to jail-threatened with prison. The loser even if started it is a pity party….more so
The person standing when police arrive usually goes to jail. The person that got police involved usually doesn’t go to jail. Once in jail the final realization will be principle which was not used for ~25 years ….. probably be a bad decision to do as feel.

Yeah if he relaly wants it the only answer is to buy her out, unless she is doing it to punish him for some reason. if thats the case, I stand by my statement.... burn both of them to the waterline.

 

[D71]

Yeah if he relaly wants it the only answer is to buy her out, unless she is doing it to punish him for some reason. if thats the case, I stand by my statement.... burn both of them to the waterline.

By Canadian Law the OP may have no claim as a grand child. The Common law is usually surviving Spouse then Dependent Children when a spouse dies. …not grandchildren. OP is a grand child….so unless willed by grand father there is no legit claim. If there is a signed legal family agreement that might change things too.

Legal Depends if the Family drew up something and agreed to it for OP’s father and that Aunt. Somehow the Father and Aunt excluded OP’s other aunt from the property. So would think they had some legal actions against her. Who knows except OP…. The OP’s Father and Aunts.
The father can’t leave his portion of his own fathers’ estate without agreement with other original heirs. They screwed up royal by not dividing it up. Leaving it uncontested for 15-25 years is another screw up. They - OP did not care until now. Why wait until now to change?

We are only getting 1 side of the story so really I can’t judge it. Be my guest. Why it should be left to courts if it can’t be bought out…,from aunt which has legal ownership for last 15 years with boats. I doubt aunt will sell. Aunt might want more then value or not willing to sell at all. In context of family property the land and possessions if OP’s father died before settling goes to AUNT.

A grandchild has no rights unless willed. A grandchild has no rights unless heirs - spouse - children draw if up for their own children to inherit their portions of Estate upon their death. Grand children have no claim. If not settled family property goes to remaining original heirs not the children of the heirs unless legal settled. Again OP stated that Aunt and his father screwed another aunt over. So what was the legal decision from that judgement?

I acted as executor of a will and won’t do another. It is messy shit….especially when family get nutty. OP let it go for 15 years or more so his father with LEGAL RIGHTS let it go. OP should have spoke up before now. If father is still of sound mind might do something in court if he maintained an agreement. If not the Aunt gets it. It really depends on facts and agreements presented to court. It is legal mess.

Most likely if offering to buy out doesn’t work then Courts. Burning a property over something you might not be legally entitled is not wise. Especially if that property is not worth any real significant value. These boats are 25+ years old.

The Aunt that got excluded has more rights then the OP….which is only a grandchild. It matters not what he did or did not do. Legal claim is still not his unless he had inclusive agreements and a court would ask why he waited 15 years. Again sounds legal was already done account ostracized aunt ….. Got screwed. Again if that aunt got screwed then there was most likely court decision. The lapse of time would make it whom ever owned it now…..paid bills. My guess aunt has property in her name too. The boats are gone….if 15 years…never in the Will.

Some States in USA whom ever paid the property tax for x number of years are entitled to a claim. They changed that law in a lot of State because they were resulting in family feuds and outsiders stealing property…which ended in at most killings. My grand mother got robbed on a piece of property in a major city back in the late 1940’s. Now the robbers which was group of lawyers with a major electric company have their building sitting on it.

Op can’t claim criminal conduct over a crime they allowed to go for 15 years… is my best guess. Hopefully they will consult lawyer and appraise us of the lawful response there. It would seem the 1 named Aunt has control …I am sure there are other grandchildren. Best left to courts if can’t legally buy aunt out. Or keep walking like they have done for last 15-25 years.

The old way was properties use to transfer to oldest male child….if both parents died. Women objected…laws changed or listen to the nag nag nag.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

By Canadian Law the OP may have no claim as a grand child. The Common law is usually surviving Spouse then Dependent Children when a spouse dies. …not grandchildren. OP is a grand child….so unless willed by grand father there is no legit claim. If there is a signed legal family agreement that might change things too.

Legal Depends if the Family drew up something and agreed to it for OP’s father and that Aunt. Somehow the Father and Aunt excluded OP’s other aunt from the property. So would think they had some legal actions against her. Who knows except OP…. The OP’s Father and Aunts.
The father can’t leave his portion of his own fathers’ estate without agreement with other original heirs. They screwed up royal by not dividing it up. Leaving it uncontested for 15-25 years is another screw up. They - OP did not care until now. Why wait until now to change?

We are only getting 1 side of the story so really I can’t judge it. Be my guest. Why it should be left to courts if it can’t be bought out…,from aunt which has legal ownership for last 15 years with boats. I doubt aunt will sell. Aunt might want more then value or not willing to sell at all. In context of family property the land and possessions if OP’s father died before settling goes to AUNT.

A grandchild has no rights unless willed. A grandchild has no rights unless heirs - spouse - children draw if up for their own children to inherit their portions of Estate upon their death. Grand children have no claim. If not settled family property goes to remaining original heirs not the children of the heirs unless legal settled. Again OP stated that Aunt and his father screwed another aunt over. So what was the legal decision from that judgement?

I acted as executor of a will and won’t do another. It is messy shit….especially when family get nutty. OP let it go for 15 years or more so his father with LEGAL RIGHTS let it go. OP should have spoke up before now. If father is still of sound mind might do something in court if he maintained an agreement. If not the Aunt gets it. It really depends on facts and agreements presented to court. It is legal mess.

Most likely if offering to buy out doesn’t work then Courts. Burning a property over something you might not be legally entitled is not wise. Especially if that property is not worth any real significant value. These boats are 25+ years old.

The Aunt that got excluded has more rights then the OP….which is only a grandchild. It matters not what he did or did not do. Legal claim is still not his unless he had inclusive agreements and a court would ask why he waited 15 years. Again sounds legal was already done account ostracized aunt ….. Got screwed. Again if that aunt got screwed then there was most likely court decision. The lapse of time would make it whom ever owned it now…..paid bills. My guess aunt has property in her name too. The boats are gone….if 15 years…never in the Will.

Some States in USA whom ever paid the property tax for x number of years are entitled to a claim. They changed that law in a lot of State because they were resulting in family feuds and outsiders stealing property…which ended in at most killings. My grand mother got robbed on a piece of property in a major city back in the late 1940’s. Now the robbers which was group of lawyers with a major electric company have their building sitting on it.

Op can’t claim criminal conduct over a crime they allowed to go for 15 years… is my best guess. Hopefully they will consult lawyer and appraise us of the lawful response there. It would seem the 1 named Aunt has control …I am sure there are other grandchildren. Best left to courts if can’t legally buy aunt out. Or keep walking like they have done for last 15-25 years.

The old way was properties use to transfer to oldest male child….if both parents died. Women objected…laws changed or listen to the nag nag nag.

Bro TLDR, ya taking the wind out of my sales... its much more fun to go barbarian style on them...

Conan, what is best in life? "To crush your enemies, See them driven before you, And to hear the lamentation of their women!"