Goodwe A-ES hybrid inverters vs Sol-Ark or ?

[Encinal_Hwy]

I'd intended to put together a system using an EG4 6500 inverter, but being in California brush fire country the permit goes through the fire dept who insists on inverters on the approved California list, so the EG4 is out (I explained I was not going to back-feed the grid, though the inverter would use grid power to charge batteries and provide pass-through power, but that still didn't sway the signatory authorities - btw, the whole issue of grid-tie vs off-grid but connected to the grid as a power source seems semantically confusing a lot of the time). So, to the California list of approved inverters (specifically grid-tied inverters is all that is on the list - implying the EG4 should be useable as any appliance that plugs in, but NO they say) and I see the Sol-Ark, which I know Will recommends, and the Goodwe GWxxxx A-ES series, which is about half the price of the Sol-Ark. The Goodwe looks pretty good to me (obviously I'm new at solar) as it seems it can operated in an off-grid mode and do everything I wanted the EG4 to do, plus it already comes with 4 MPPT inputs. I have 4 roof orientations which would work out nicely for the 4 MPPTs on a single inverter, though pairs of roofs are oriented only about 60 degrees apart and so could be paired up - though one string would have different panels. And all roofs are generally oriented south: 2 roofs within about 15 degrees of south, one southeast, and one southwest - it's a bit of a weird house that wraps around a hillside. So I could probably pair up at least 2 of the roofs.

I understand the Sol-Ark has a transformer and seems to have features the Goodwe doesn't, but I'm not sure those features would benefit me. And I don't see much discussion on the A-ES Goodwe inverters. There's one recent YT video of an installer in San Diego that installed one to upgrade a system there, though he seems sponsored by Goodwe (the Goodwe distributor is in the video too). A possible issue for the Goodwe is it takes high voltage batteries. I'm familiar with the 48V batteries and actually placed an order for 2 of the EG4 5kWh batteries from SS along with the now-cancelled EG4 6500 inverter. Can those 48 V batteries be wired in series to use with the Goodwe? It needs 85 to 450V batteries. Is that a major reason the Goodwe is so much less expensive than the Sol-Ark, the lack of battery adaptability?

Right now I have 16 used 295 watt panels (Voc 45.1V and Vmp 35.7V), and 12 used 260 watt panels (Voc 37.8V and Vmpp 30.7V). A neighbor who lost their home in one of the brush fires gave me their ground-mounted panels that were ok but insurance is replacing. The panels which is what got me started on all of this, and originally I just wanted to supply power to some circuits broken out to a sub panel, including a fridge, server, and a coral grow-out operation (lots of pumps and LED lights), and cover my top tier energy useage.

Thanks for any suggestions/advice.

 

[jasonhc73]

Is there a question in there?

 

[ChrisG]

That inverter needs a 80-495v

 

[Encinal_Hwy]

Is there a question in there?

Ha, I guess there wasn't one. Long story short, with a question: is the Goodwe GW9600A-ES inverter functionally comparable to the Sol-Ark 12k? Am I missing something other than the difference in the wider range of batteries the Sol-Ark supports (i.e. 48V LiFePO4 in the Sol-Ark vs. the 80-450 "high voltage" batteries the Goodwe requires)? Also, can 48V LiFePO4 like the EG4 5kWh be wired in series to achieve higher voltages (I only seem to see parallel wiring)?

 

[Encinal_Hwy]

That inverter needs a 80-495v

Right - are these higher voltage batteries not DIY'able? I don't seem to see anything other than 12, 24, 36 and 48V batteries discussed in this forum.

 

[Solar Guppy]

The Goodwe A-ES Series is a HV UL listed 9540 inverter, intended to be used with batteries like the BYD-HVL series in the US. It would be similar to the Solis 5G series performance wise as requires an external auto transformer ( Like the Solis ) for Neutral.

While the product has been "released" for close to 2 years, they have almost no US presence and only within the last few weeks any online retailer lists them so I doubt many (if any) have actually been installed.

All of the HV Hybrids are intended to be used for installation in the US using UL9540 listed batteries, they are not DIY, which is fine as they are actually code compliant with NEC2020 meaning you can do permitted installations.

HV inverters may list lower working battery voltages, but for rated power, you need ~300 VDC, look closely at the data sheet as it is amps * voltage and the HV Batteries are typically in the 25-50 amp range, good for lower cost wiring in the DC side.

 

[Encinal_Hwy]

The Goodwe A-ES Series is a HV UL listed 9540 inverter, intended to be used with batteries like the BYD-HVL series in the US. It would be similar to the Solis 5G series performance wise as requires an external auto transformer ( Like the Solis ) for Neutral.

While the product has been "released" for close to 2 years, they have almost no US presence and only within the last few weeks any online retailer lists them so I doubt many (if any) have actually been installed.

All of the HV Hybrids are intended to be used for installation in the US using UL9540 listed batteries, they are not DIY, which is fine as they are actually code compliant with NEC2020 meaning you can do permitted installations.

HV inverters may list lower working battery voltages, but for rated power, you need ~300 VDC, look closely at the data sheet as it is amps * voltage and the HV Batteries are typically in the 25-50 amp range, good for lower cost wiring in the DC side.

Thank you Solar Guppy for the insights. I didn't realize a transformer was necessary for the Goodwe since it is described as split phase, so I thought that meant 2 hots and a neutral were already provided.

Also is there an advantage to a high voltage battery that would justify their 2X higher cost other than the UL9540 listing? (The BYD HV batteries are roughly $590/kWh whereas the EG4 12/24/or 48V LifePower batteries are $293/kWh) Also, will a non-listed battery preclude permitting of the system? It would seem the battery is isolated from the grid by the inverter.

 

[Solar Guppy]

Also is there an advantage to a high voltage battery that would justify their 2X higher cost other than the UL9540 listing?

The entire county ( USA ) will soon be under the requirement of NEC2020 which requires storage systems have UL9540 listings. The BYD is worth every penny as it is plug and play and just works, no issues for example with precharge one can read about from other non-listed sellers and BYD will be around in 10 years so the warranty means something if needed.

Anything that isn't UL9540 is just lower purchase price, but over time likely won't be lower lifetime costs.

 

[ChrisG]

The entire county ( USA ) will soon be under the requirement of NEC2020 which requires storage systems have UL9540 listings. The BYD is worth every penny as it is plug and play and just works, no issues for example with precharge one can read about from other non-listed sellers and BYD will be around in 10 years so the warranty means something if needed.

Anything that isn't UL9540 is just lower purchase price, but over time likely won't be lower lifetime costs.

@Solar Guppy
If HV batteries like BYD are going to be the new standard because of NEC requirements, that also kicks out inverters like Outback (maybe not Mojave), Schneider and Solark from being used due to 48v nominal voltage requirements, correct?

 

[Solar Guppy]

@Solar Guppy
If HV batteries like BYD are going to be the new standard because of NEC requirements, that also kicks out inverters like Outback (maybe not Mojave), Schneider and Solark from being used due to 48v nominal voltage requirements, correct?

It's not the voltage, it's the UL9540 listing that all tier one providers spend the $$ to get ( I have been told it cost ~250K for each combination of inverter / battery pair ) and why for any given inverter, there is only one or two battery options that are listed.

Outback has Simpliphi for UL9540, you may want to watch this video which cover the next revision of requirements for UL9540 which look to limit ESS to 20 kwh for residential systems.

BYD has 48 Volt LV series but I don't think it is marketed for the USA.

My view is NEC ( fireman writing the code ) is way out of their domain in the more recent code updates, module level shutdown, arc fault and now ESS are not their expertise and they just keep layering on requirements in the name of keeping fire response safe for its workers. I had a good talk with BYD and learned the testing is really for the non Lifep04 lithium batteries, which for storage / ESS it is almost all Lifep04 now.

This leaves for the USA only a handful of companies willing to get UL9540 listing and based on what I know about, limiting options. Imagine if every EV had to have a listing paired to specific charger, that is what UL9540 does.

For now, it is already in code and unless where one lives exempts NEC code, it is what it is.

 

[damo green]

The Goodwe A-ES Series is a HV UL listed 9540 inverter, intended to be used with batteries like the BYD-HVL series in the US. It would be similar to the Solis 5G series performance wise as requires an external auto transformer ( Like the Solis ) for Neutral.

While the product has been "released" for close to 2 years, they have almost no US presence and only within the last few weeks any online retailer lists them so I doubt many (if any) have actually been installed.

All of the HV Hybrids are intended to be used for installation in the US using UL9540 listed batteries, they are not DIY, which is fine as they are actually code compliant with NEC2020 meaning you can do permitted installations.

HV inverters may list lower working battery voltages, but for rated power, you need ~300 VDC, look closely at the data sheet as it is amps * voltage and the HV Batteries are typically in the 25-50 amp range, good for lower cost wiring in the DC side.

I can't find any results for the company "Goodwe" in the UL database... is it really UL listed or just certified as compliant ? (I see the UL certification *compliance* letter on the Goodwe website... any explanation appreciated. (I DO see Goodwe on the California Energy Commisions lists)