hybrid versus AIO 'value' inverter / charger

[Lost_One]

Greetings,
When I had started out with the desire to expand and add in additional power with battery backup to my home, I was first focusing on tier 1 like Outback and Schneider. It seems that this will allow for me to basically AC couple and have the ability to charge the bank with AC or via solar with a new array and SCC. What drive me bonkers is that you need to get all this additional pricey boxes to program and monitor. Sure I get it that I need to buy an inverter and a SCC, but it seems that it is 4-6 hundred more to program the inverter. ( Unless I am mistaken )
Recently, I have been finding myself looking at these 'value' AIO units like the MPP, Growatt, DIY-MNS etc. These value units seem to check all the boxes, minus selling back to the grid. I had also seen the signature solar unit that states ul1741, but I don't think that these still all to sell back?

I think that these check all my check-boxes:
- add more power ( this would be a separate load panel )
- charge the battery first with solar then with AC if needed
- supply power to some circuits during a power event

What I don't know:
- can I charge and/or use AC power at the same time, either when the sun is out or not?
- if there is not enough sun or battery, will AC assist or take over?

I would still need to properly size the system. I really need to make sure that I don't paint myself in a corner with the AC charging, as I only have 100A service on my home and I can see that some of these have big AC charging.

I belive that this would be a self consume 'off-grid' system that allows for AC assist. Am I barking up the right tree with these AIO, or in the long run, am I better off with the tier 1 units?

Regards

 

[Rednecktek]

Greetings,
When I had started out with the desire to expand and add in additional power with battery backup to my home, I was first focusing on tier 1 like Outback and Schneider. It seems that this will allow for me to basically AC couple and have the ability to charge the bank with AC or via solar with a new array and SCC. What drive me bonkers is that you need to get all this additional pricey boxes to program and monitor. Sure I get it that I need to buy an inverter and a SCC, but it seems that it is 4-6 hundred more to program the inverter. ( Unless I am mistaken )

But you get the cool sticker and ability to equipment-flex on your favorite solar forum! Isn't that worth the extra money? (/sarcasm)

Recently, I have been finding myself looking at these 'value' AIO units like the MPP, Growatt, DIY-MNS etc. These value units seem to check all the boxes, minus selling back to the grid. I had also seen the signature solar unit that states ul1741, but I don't think that these still all to sell back?

Doing grid tied anything is a whole other mess of hoops to jump through, although I believe there are flavors of MPP and Growatt that can back feed and sell to the grid, but I could be wrong. The other limiting factor of that being will the power company LET you back sell?

I think that these check all my check-boxes:
- add more power ( this would be a separate load panel )
- charge the battery first with solar then with AC if needed
- supply power to some circuits during a power event

Especially with the paralleling varieties (NOT the PowMr's) you can always add capacity upwards of 9 units if you really wanted to.

What I don't know:
- can I charge and/or use AC power at the same time, either when the sun is out or not?
- if there is not enough sun or battery, will AC assist or take over?

It depends on the unit. Most of the "Value" ends will supply the loads from EITHER the solar/batteries OR the grid, but you gotta get the really high-end flavors if you want to load share between the sources.

I would still need to properly size the system. I really need to make sure that I don't paint myself in a corner with the AC charging, as I only have 100A service on my home and I can see that some of these have big AC charging.

Remember that the AC charging number is based on the battery voltage, so if it says it can take 50a (for example) on your 48v system, that's 50a @ 48v = 2400w, which from a 120v generator is only 20a and even a Harbor Freight 3500 generator can easily do that. The challenge comes in if you're doing a Split-Phase unit like the LV6048's and the like because if the unit can put out split-phase, your AC input has to be Split-Phase as well. I.E. you can't charge a 240v AIO from a 110v generator (without special steps & equipment).

I believe that this would be a self consume 'off-grid' system that allows for AC assist. Am I barking up the right tree with these AIO, or in the long run, am I better off with the tier 1 units?

If you skip the whole grid-feeding thing then the mid-grade units like MPP, Growatt, EG4, etc are fine for the most part. Even if one dies within the warranty period you get from a Tier-1 a complete replacement is often times less than what you would have paid for going Top Brand in the first place. Every brand is going to have its issues, there are quite a few posts in the forum for pretty much any flavor you get.

Having said that, if you feel you need the higher end equipment for some reason AND can afford the cost then Tier-1 is Tier-1 for a reason.

 

[Lost_One]

Thank you Rednecktek. As always, you offer great info and insight

Tier-1 is Tier-1 for a reason

.

EITHER the solar/batteries OR the grid

I am sure that I can hunt down more info, but what do they call that? I see that there is a feature often called UPS mode, but that sounds like it would use AC until there is a loss of power and then the battery and inverter will kick in. I'll do some more digging as it seems I would want something like AC assist, or in those lines.

The other limiting factor of that being will the power company LET you back sell

I believe that they may not allow these to sell back as they are not UL1741 for the most part, or on the approved list. If I am reading what Xcel is paying for power back now a days, I can care less then the .05 per kWatt they offer. I would never see a return on investment with Tier 1 over the AIO.

48v system, that's 50a @ 48v = 2400w, which from a 120v generator is only 20a

This is a good point, as my mind ran to 120V at 50A.

Tier-1 is Tier-1 for a reason

I do believe this, but man, it is hard to justify for my needs, especially with all the extras you need to make it work.


"Nevah Wick da Wed Wire..

Ask me how I know."

How?

 

[Rednecktek]

I am sure that I can hunt down more info, but what do they call that? I see that there is a feature often called UPS mode, but that sounds like it would use AC until there is a loss of power and then the battery and inverter will kick in. I'll do some more digging as it seems I would want something like AC assist, or in those lines.

It's often called Load Sharing or Load Shedding and it's surprisingly complex and thus expensive!

I do believe this, but man, it is hard to justify for my needs, especially with all the extras you need to make it work.

There are reasons I own exactly 0 Victron, MidniteSolar or Outback products.

"Nevah Wick da Wed Wire..

Ask me how I know."

How?

OK, you asked for it:

Nevah Wick da Wed Wiah!

So growing up my dad worked swing shift at Boeing, so he got home about midnight each night and any work that needed to happen on the house happened between midnight and about 4am. There was ALWAYS something needing work.

I was 13 at the time, and my dad decided he wanted to install a miniature heat pump to the feed line of the water heater. While it was down he wanted to replace the super cheezy thermostats in the water heater with ones you could actually set the temperature on.

So, about 12:30 in the morning I'm in my bath robe sitting on the washing machine trying to get STRANDED wire into a push-clip thermostat...

Push... Splay... Sigh... Twist...

2am... Push... Splay... Sigh... Twist...

3am Push... Splay... Sigh... Twist...

3:30am I had an epiphany: This is just like trying to put thread through a needle!

Remember, I was 13 and it was 3:30 in the morning...

By this time my dad had assumed I was done and turned the power back on to the water heater...

Yup... just what you're thinkin.

It went in through my tongue, grounded out through my ass (because I was sitting on the washer), I couldn't sit down for a week and couldn't taste things for a MONTH!

Sthop laughing mom, it'th not thunny!

So, don't worry about amps or volts. There are tables for that.
Don't worry about calculating resistance over length of cable by strand.
All you need to really know about electricity is:

NEVAH WICK DA WED WIAH!!

 

[Lost_One]

NEVAH WICK DA WED WIAH!!

I have to say that is a funny story ( I am laughing with you not at you ). At least now, when you search for 'NEVAH WICK DA WED WIAH!!' it is now shows up in this thread. Yes, I have searched for this before cus, well I was curious. Now I know, and other will too. Thank you for providing this very important PSA