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Lead acid charging in series

Charging manually with a psu is complicated process, it's doable , but difficult

So looking at it logically, if there's anything wrong with your batteries, the first thing to eliminate is the possibility that you're doing something wrong with that PSU.

Get yourself an AGM/gel smart charger and see if that makes a difference , CTEK are great
Thanks for the recommendation, I'm researching the CTEK XS0.8.
I was able to get the charge voltage to 28.8v when the charge current dropped and is now at 0.06a which I assume is completely normal and will likely stay that way for the remaining 12 hours.
 
I was able to get the charge voltage to 28.8v when the charge current dropped and is now at 0.06a

So that's 14.4v per battery, that is full 'bull' charge voltage, but the current has tailed off (low amps). So you should now be at float voltage 13.5v (27v)
 
Eaton 5E850IUSB Seems to have ~1.5A max charge rate (says 6hr to recharge a 12v 9ah battery), roughly. I found no other info on its charging.
Found this funny video on that one.

Mecer ME-2000-VU Seems to have a ~1.5a rate (4-6hrs to recharge 24v 9ah pack).
Manual

LinkQNet UPS-INT-2000VA-LQ-K Seems to have a slightly slower <1.5a charge rate (6-8hrs to recharge 24v 9ah pack).

So with all 3 you're talking about really slow onboard charging. They'd basically all need several hours of 'downtime' for just a few minutes of actual use.

But it seems your issue is mostly with the ability of the battery packs to support very brief loads, so we're not really concerned with 'outrunning' your charge source with overuse of the battery capacity, so much as we're concerned with whether the batteries can sustain a high enough voltage to keep the UPS inverter functioning under a ~600w load. 600w / 24v = roughly 25a draw, not including inefficiencies, so perhaps a little closer to 30a. That is a pretty big current for those small batteries, which like you say is probably tenable when the batteries are new, but it becomes iffy pretty quickly.

What i would honestly do, since you have an extra set (or multiple from the multiple UPS's?) is just hardwire an additional battery connector to the outside of the UPS case so you could run the original batteries AND the new batteries in parallel to the single UPS. I say this because while yes, improving the charging regime could extend the amount of time that a 9ah SLA battery can sustain a 30a load, it's turd polishing in my opinion. It would be a much more resilient system if it just had more battery in the first place.

So i guess you could say it all comes down to that the UPS's are rated very optimistically in the first place. They can say 2000va or 1200w all they want, but if you divide 1200w / 24v = 50a and then physically hold and look at a 9ah SLA with its tiny little male spade terminals, it's immediately obvious that the whole concept is somewhere between extremely optimistic and an outright lie. Even if the batteries were lifepo4 with much less voltage sag under load, you'd still be dropping so much volts trying to flow 50a across those tiny battery leads that you'd either hit low voltage cutout on the inverter OR start melting the insulation off the wires in way under a minute. The documentation for the 9ah battery you linked doesn't even get close to 50a and even at 32a it shows voltage dropping to 9.5v in under a minute. You would have mere SECONDS of 600-1200w power and the only reason it wouldn't catch on fire is because the inverter would hit low voltage shutdown first.

1200w is a farcical rating, 600w is pushing it. It may be able to support it with the inverter if it had more battery hooked up to it, but no amount of properly charging those 9ah batteries is going to make them able to handle 25+a scenarios 'well'. Thus my recommendation to parallel more battery to it and see what happens, since that costs you nothing but 1 foot of wire and some time. If even that does not work i would say the UPS is just terminally undersized for what you're trying to do, which would not be your fault so much as whoever wrote those bullshit ratings on it in the first place!
 
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@Vigo I really appreciate your input on this topic. I've connected the batteries back up to the UPS after the charge and they've settled at 13.4v each after 24 hours. Tested a 650w load and then pulled power to see if it can hold the load for 1-2 seconds so that the EcoFlow can switch over and it did so successfully only thing is seems both my monitors turn off and on when the grid power comes back (i.e me plugging back into the wall).

Regarding how they're wired. I've kept the batteries outside of UPS and soldered XT60 connectors to the UPS and the batteries so I can quick disconnect and plug into the DC PSU charger now and then. So this would be easy to adapt for an extra 2 batteries in parallel.

I see what you're saying with the overall idea of having 2 9ah batteries rated for 24v in series handling a load of 600w even for a short time. I'm more than willing to add an extra 2 new batteries of the same type in a 2S2P config and wire those in parallel.

The batteries in the Mecer UPS I'm using now and the other UPS's sometimes have days of not needing to switch and hold a load. It just comes to a point where they don't hold the load and my thought was that I would need to recharge them externally.

I'm more than happy to buy better solutions it's just that I'd like to understand the variables I'm working with so that I'm not just throwing money at things without understanding the underlying concepts at play.

Just a few extra questions though:
- how would them being in parallel help with sustaining a high power draw? Does it contribute directly to voltage sag or voltage droop?
- And also since you mention needing a foot of wire, I am questioning the wire used in the UPS as well. Which gauge of wire should I get for a 600-700w load on a 12v battery or 24v battery? 12awg is currently used.
- What if I got 2x 24v 5ah batteries to run in parallel would that work better for this type of load of 600w for 1-2 seconds?
 
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how would them being in parallel help with sustaining a high power draw? Does it contribute directly to voltage sag or voltage droop?
Yes, the voltage will 'sag' in proportion to the current. If you put another string of batteries in parallel, then except for the minor differences in the wiring (one pack internal with short leads, one pack external with longer leads) they will basically split the current requirement so each pack only flows around half the total amps. In doing so their voltage will 'sag' proportionally less, and keep the inverter above its low voltage cutoff point.

And also since you mention needing a foot of wire, I am questioning the wire used in the UPS as well. Which gauge of wire should I get for a 600-700w load on a 12v battery or 24v battery? 12awg is currently used.
It's good that you noticed that as a potential bottleneck. We're talking about a 25-30amp draw during that 600-700w load (700w / 24v = ~29amp) and 12awg will support that for a while before its temp gets too high. With short duty cycle circuits like this there are often things that are intentionally left kinda crappy because it's like the situation of being chased by a bear.. you just have to be faster than the slowest guy. :ROFLMAO: So even if that 12awg wire is technically undersized for that current and eventually overheat under a continuous 30amp current, it's still going to take a certain amount of time for its temp to rise, and with such a small battery pack the battery will drain and not be able to sustain the 30a, before the wire actually gets too hot. The wires that go to starter motors in cars are the same way.. Technically too small, but it's ok because they don't run long enough to overheat.

So that's just talking about temp. The heat COMES from the voltage that gets dropped across the wire, so making heat = losing volts. In terms of voltage drop, yes the 12awg wire is probably dropping several tenths of a volt while flowing the peak current. But, it may be very tedious to improve that part of the device because the 12awg wire probably gets soldered directly into a through-hole on the inverter circuit board and while you may be able to solder a 2nd set of leads onto it in parallel with the existing leads, or replace the existing 12awg leads with a single set of larger leads into those through-holes or solder pads on the circuit board, it is probably more work for less gain vs just adding the second string of batteries in parallel and feeding it through the existing 12awg wires.

What if I got 2x 24v 5ah batteries to run in parallel would that work better for this type of load of 600w for 1-2 seconds?
It depends what kind of batteries they are. Lithium iron phosphate (lifepo4) batteries do not have much voltage 'sag' under load so even if you replaced the SLAs with Lithium of a smaller Ah rating, they would likely sustain higher voltage under the brief load condition. With lead acid it is basically 'settled science' to the point that if you have 5lbs of lead acid wired one way or 5lbs of lead acid wired another way, it will basically give the same result given that you have to keep it 24v regardless. So replacing 2x 12v 9ah in series, with 2x 24v 5ah in parallel, might allow you to still fit everything into the existing case but probably won't address the voltage sag issue because you still essentially have 'the same amount of battery' or pretty close to it.

So to substantially reduce the voltage sag under load, you either need to make the battery 'bigger' by paralleling an external pack, or replacing the single internal pack with a lithium replacement which will not suffer as much voltage sag under load.
 
@Vigo Once again, thank you for your response. I'll definitely look into getting LiFePO4 replacement batteries. I've done some research on how they behave under loads with regards to voltage drops. This definitely looks like the solution.
Here is the LiFePO4 battery I'm looking at (this is a reputable local brand) - Blue Nova BN13V-8-104WH
and I've found a good charger that should be able to do 'proper' charges on these batteries - Blue Smart IP65 Charger
The 2x LiFePO4 batteries and the charger should only set me back around 150EUR which is much better than the 600EUR online UPS alternative.
You have taught a man to fish. Thanks, again.
 
@CntrlAltDel

If you're feeling adventurous , you can actually parallel LiFePo4 & vrla batteries together. (Now some say it's the devil's work and you should NEVER do it , but others have tried it with great success).... if you believe what's been said by those who've tried it, LiFePo4 and AGM support eachother very nicely.

The lithium takes the initial hits (because it's voltage sits high & is more stable) sparing the lead acid. And then the lead acid supports the lithiums under bigger/ sustained loads , helping to prevent voltage sag


Would make for a very interesting experiment if you are interested

Quite a few thread's about it:



Also if interest have a read of this post by Jeephammer (and the few after) , he mixes different battery chemistries by isolating them from each other with rectifiers (like a one way valve) . The idea is different batteries can share the work when powering a load , but have different charging required, so he is able to charge them individually , whilst drawing on them in unison

All his batteries can give power to the common bus bar , but can't leach power back from it



Post in thread 'Feast or Famine, The off grid solar dilemma.' https://diysolarforum.com/threads/feast-or-famine-the-off-grid-solar-dilemma.63293/post-800419
 
Hi all, keeping to this thread as i have a similar issue. 4 x brand new 'snappy start' leisure batteries wired in series for 48v with a hybid inverter charging them. The 4 batteries do not balance, one of them collapses to <5v. and the inverter disconnects them as 'under voltage'. I tried charging them individually but on the second day of running back as a 48v series, one of the batteries had REVERSED its charge and now read -3v !!. This was a different cell to the one that had gone to <5v. Do i have a bad batch of batteries? (yes they are wired correctly) Any ideas as to why one of the cells is being completely drained and indeed reversed?
 
Hi all, keeping to this thread as i have a similar issue. 4 x brand new 'snappy start' leisure batteries wired in series for 48v with a hybid inverter charging them. The 4 batteries do not balance, one of them collapses to <5v. and the inverter disconnects them as 'under voltage'. I tried charging them individually but on the second day of running back as a 48v series, one of the batteries had REVERSED its charge and now read -3v !!. This was a different cell to the one that had gone to <5v. Do i have a bad batch of batteries? (yes they are wired correctly) Any ideas as to why one of the cells is being completely drained and indeed reversed?

If your 12v lead acid hits 5v , there is something SERIOUSLY wrong . Possible dead cells? Certainly an issue

Cease use immediately , contact the seller , you'll be due a refund
 
Any ideas as to why one of the cells is being completely drained and indeed reversed?

It's complicated and a bit above my pay grade so I can't be 100% sure on what's causing the problem (others may be able to explain better than me)...

but really if they are brand new batteries , you shouldn't be facing issues like this , it's not your problem anyway , it's the manufacturers !!!! Get your refund while you still can ?
 
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