Looking for inverter suggestion to set up a critical backup system while cutting utility bill.

[wcpastures]

WC: Don't rely on that information about Outback not being made in China. I'm not pushing any brand in this discussion, and in fact am looking at many of these same brands for our projects. Many of these units are made in China, Victron in India, etc. Magnum is still made in the USA, and Exeltech. The new Midnite Solar DIY are Chinese. And then there is the fact that even if they are partially assembled in the US, where do the parts come from? For the most part, China.

What about SMA? I found a guy selling the SI 6048-US-10 for $2900, with the cost of the Mate I would need for the Radian 4048 I would almost be there. SMA seems to be the favorite? but then I would have to use a transformer since it's not split-phase.

 

[BMcL]

What about SMA? I found a guy selling the SI 6048-US-10 for $2900, with the cost of the Mate I would need for the Radian 4048 I would almost be there. SMA seems to be the favorite? but then I would have to use a transformer since it's not split-phase.

Check this out ; you could buy two and keep one for a spare

Overstock LVX6048WP -WaterProof UL Grid Feedback 6kw Split Phase IP 65 Outdoor rated – SEE CONDITIONS – Watts247 Wholesale

watts247.com

 

[wcpastures]

Check this out ; you could buy two and keep one for a spare

Overstock LVX6048WP -WaterProof UL Grid Feedback 6kw Split Phase IP 65 Outdoor rated – SEE CONDITIONS – Watts247 Wholesale

watts247.com

hummm the price tag is tempting, is this one that has the charge controller integrated like the Sol-Ark? I was focusing more more on the trusted names but then if it's reliable is the main thing.

 

[BMcL]

hummm the price tag is tempting, is this one that has the charge controller integrated like the Sol-Ark? I was focusing more more on the trusted names but then if it's reliable is the main thing.

Yes it's an all-in-one. And it's low frequency but not as heavy as some (100 lbs).
It has 2 PV inputs and PV input of 600 volts so it can take a lot of panels in series.
This inverter could be heavy duty enough to last a long time.

 

[wcpastures]

Yes it's an all-in-one. And it's low frequency but not as heavy as some (100 lbs).
It has 2 PV inputs and PV input of 600 volts so it can take a lot of panels in series.
This inverter could be heavy duty enough to last a long time.

Wow! if it's reliable Sol-Ark will be forced to lower their exorbitant price tag! I was beginning to like the Outback Radian though. This new MPP unit seems to good to be true!? The question is how much longer will it really be to market and who wants to be the first guinea pig to see if this really is dependable?
Edit: "Built in Wi-Fi" I do NOT like that! I do NOT want it constantly connecting and sending out signals. I normally even turn off the Wi-Fi on my router.

 

[wcpastures]

WC: Don't rely on that information about Outback not being made in China. I'm not pushing any brand in this discussion, and in fact am looking at many of these same brands for our projects. Many of these units are made in China, Victron in India, etc. Magnum is still made in the USA, and Exeltech. The new Midnite Solar DIY are Chinese. And then there is the fact that even if they are partially assembled in the US, where do the parts come from? For the most part, China.

Can anyone confirm where the Outback Radian is made? Or how it would compare to the less expensive MPP units?

From looking at the Outback Radian install instructions it looks as though during a power outage the only loads that can be run are those switched over to the critical loads panel regardless of if there is enough power to run the rest of the loads from solar/battery? Can this be overridden? The main breaker would need to be flipped off to prevent back-feeding of course. The only loads I would not be able to run would be the water heater and the dryer so I don't really what to have to basically rewire my entire panel. Am I missing something?

 

[wcpastures]

The "Load Center" is absolutely NOT required.... While it has its convenient benefits for installation, its just box full of circuit breakers and bus bars.. I didn't bother getting one. Too overpriced in my opinion for something that doesn't actually do anything.. if the price was $400, I might have got it, but at $1000+, hell no.

You can go to Midnite and buy all the DC circuit breakers you want for $10 to $15 each and snap them on some DIN Rail.

It all depends on your budget vs how handy you are with building things.

This is also while I like AC Coupling.. its far simpler as you don't need charge controllers, DC circuit breakers everywhere, etc.

Has anyone set up their Radian with a DYI "Load Center" box? Would be interested in see how others set this up?

 

[MurphyGuy]

Has anyone set up their Radian with a DYI "Load Center" box? Would be interested in see how others set this up?

Since my off-grid system is AC Coupled, my "load center" is my home's breaker panel. Just added an interlocked generator breaker and a connection interface for the off-grid inverter and done.

All the Radian box does is jam everything into a tiny undersized box that makes it difficult to work on things. The benefit is that the installation looks organized and neat, the downside is that you have to purchase specialized components for that box and its difficult to work on because everything is crammed in.

 

[wcpastures]

Since my off-grid system is AC Coupled, my "load center" is my home's breaker panel. Just added an interlocked generator breaker and a connection interface for the off-grid inverter and done.

All the Radian box does is jam everything into a tiny undersized box that makes it difficult to work on things. The benefit is that the installation looks organized and neat, the downside is that you have to purchase specialized components for that box and its difficult to work on because everything is crammed in.

and that's using SMA?

edit:
I thought that once the Radian inverter converts the DC from the battery/panels to AC everything is "AC Coupled" from that point on. I guess I need to do some more research on this?

 

[MurphyGuy]

and that's using SMA?

Yes.. SMA grid tied inverters normally feed the grid.. when the power goes out, we use SMA Sunny Island's, which trick the inverters into making power.

But it doesn't really matter.. the Radian can do the same thing and pretty much all grid-inverters can be used for AC coupling, its just that some are better than others because they can peform FSPC and throttle themselves based on the mini-grid frequency..

 

[wcpastures]

Since my off-grid system is AC Coupled, my "load center" is my home's breaker panel. Just added an interlocked generator breaker and a connection interface for the off-grid inverter and done.

All the Radian box does is jam everything into a tiny undersized box that makes it difficult to work on things. The benefit is that the installation looks organized and neat, the downside is that you have to purchase specialized components for that box and its difficult to work on because everything is crammed in.

Wouldn't I be able to do the same with the Radian?

 

[MurphyGuy]

Wouldn't I be able to do the same with the Radian?

Yup, no problem.. you could do the same with any battery inverter you want when the grid goes down.

The important part is to install a "generator interlock" so it is not possible to have the utility grid and battery inverter or generator connected to your home at the same time.

Installing a generator breaker also allows you to.. wait for it (LOL).. legally backfeed a regular generator into your home!

Its a nice feature to have.

I also installed a patch circuit from a generator plug (gen inlet tap) outside my home, to a receptacle near my breaker box. There is nothing connected to it.. its just an inlet plug outside for the generator to hook up to and a receptacle inside for me to plug into.

I then use 4 wire SO cords (with appropriate plugs) to configure the system however I want.

This patch circuit allows me to configure my home's power multiple ways:
1) Utility grid powering home with grid-tied solar (Normal mode of operation)
2) Off grid battery system powering home with solar support. (Normal mode when grid goes down)
3) Off grid battery system powering home with solar support and generator support for when we get a long string of cloudy days.
4) Generator powering home on its own. (no solar or battery support)

The really nice thing about being able to charge batteries with the generator is that generators spend most of their time wasting energy and only putting out 10% to 30% of their ratings. Generators run best at around 80% of what they're designed for.

Since I can set my inverters to draw a specific amount of energy from my 6kW generator, I tell it to draw 20 amps, which works out to about 4800 watts. When my battery is low and there's no sunshine for solar, I can turn on the generator and the battery inverter will load it down to almost exactly 20 amps. Regardless of what the loads in the house are doing, the generator will run smoothly at a 20 amp continuous rate.. this reduces wear and tear on the generator and maximizes its efficiency.

The other thing this does is to limit the generator run time. 4800 watts into my 25kWh battery bank means I can run the generator for about 5 hours and the battery will have enough juice to last for another day.. hopefully the sun comes out by then, but if not, I just run the generator for another 5 hours. Much better than it running all day wasting energy and wearing itself out.

 

[Shunt Czar]

Here's some interesting insight on inverters, courtesy of redhilllabs.com:

 

[wcpastures]

Here's some interesting insight on inverters, courtesy of redhilllabs.com:

Yeah for a minute those cheap MPP inverters look tempting, even the pricey Sol-Ark is transformerless!?
I have a well pump to run so I think I am going to stick with the Outback Radian.

Also plan to install the Midnight surge protectors: https://www.altestore.com/store/enc...rotection-device-300vdc-and-120240-vac-p9042/

 

[Shunt Czar]

Yeah for a minute those cheap MPP inverters look tempting, even the pricey Sol-Ark is transformerless!?
I have a well pump to run so I think I am going to stick with the Outback Radian.

Also plan to install the Midnight surge protectors: https://www.altestore.com/store/enc...rotection-device-300vdc-and-120240-vac-p9042/

Not saying all transformerless inverters are bad. But if you ask if they have DC protection if an output device they'll give you vague jargon and do anything to avoid a straight answer, and probably only their design engineer really knows. I am a big fan of transformer inverters but I could design a safe, reliable transformerless one.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Yeah for a minute those cheap MPP inverters look tempting, even the pricey Sol-Ark is transformerless!?
I have a well pump to run so I think I am going to stick with the Outback Radian.

Also plan to install the Midnight surge protectors: https://www.altestore.com/store/enc...rotection-device-300vdc-and-120240-vac-p9042/

The Outback Radian is also a transformerless inverter.. Its one of the better ones, maybe even the best as far as the HF units go, but it is transformerless.

 

[wcpastures]

Yup, no problem.. you could do the same with any battery inverter you want when the grid goes down.

The important part is to install a "generator interlock" so it is not possible to have the utility grid and battery inverter or generator connected to your home at the same time.

Installing a generator breaker also allows you to.. wait for it (LOL).. legally backfeed a regular generator into your home!

Its a nice feature to have.

I also installed a patch circuit from a generator plug (gen inlet tap) outside my home, to a receptacle near my breaker box. There is nothing connected to it.. its just an inlet plug outside for the generator to hook up to and a receptacle inside for me to plug into.

I then use 4 wire SO cords (with appropriate plugs) to configure the system however I want.

This patch circuit allows me to configure my home's power multiple ways:
1) Utility grid powering home with grid-tied solar (Normal mode of operation)
2) Off grid battery system powering home with solar support. (Normal mode when grid goes down)
3) Off grid battery system powering home with solar support and generator support for when we get a long string of cloudy days.
4) Generator powering home on its own. (no solar or battery support)

The really nice thing about being able to charge batteries with the generator is that generators spend most of their time wasting energy and only putting out 10% to 30% of their ratings. Generators run best at around 80% of what they're designed for.

Since I can set my inverters to draw a specific amount of energy from my 6kW generator, I tell it to draw 20 amps, which works out to about 4800 watts. When my battery is low and there's no sunshine for solar, I can turn on the generator and the battery inverter will load it down to almost exactly 20 amps. Regardless of what the loads in the house are doing, the generator will run smoothly at a 20 amp continuous rate.. this reduces wear and tear on the generator and maximizes its efficiency.

The other thing this does is to limit the generator run time. 4800 watts into my 25kWh battery bank means I can run the generator for about 5 hours and the battery will have enough juice to last for another day.. hopefully the sun comes out by then, but if not, I just run the generator for another 5 hours. Much better than it running all day wasting energy and wearing itself out.

Yeah I do have an interlock on my panel for generator input.

The Outback Radian is also a transformerless inverter.. Its one of the better ones, maybe even the best as far as the HF units go, but it is transformerless.

Humm for some reason I thought it used transformers like the Magnum? I guess I assumed that because of the weight and thought of it as a hefty unit. Your not confusing it with their SkyBox hybrid?

 

[Ampster]

Your not confusing it with their SkyBox hybrid?

I think he is confusing the two. I have a Skybox and it is transformerless. I used to have a Radian and am almost positive it had a transformer. I know the Radian has has more surge capacity than the Skybox. That would be a clue.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Yeah I do have an interlock on my panel for generator input.

Humm for some reason I thought it used transformers like the Magnum? I guess I assumed that because of the weight and thought of it as a hefty unit. Your not confusing it with their SkyBox hybrid?

It has been my understanding that it is not a true low frequency inverter like the SMA Sunny Island's, but it is not transformerless either.. I misspoke when I said that.
It has a transformer, but I believe its more like the Victron units in that, while not transformerless, it is not a low frequency unit. Its something in the middle. I think its a blend between the LF designs (big heavy transformer) and the HF designs without any transformer at all.. and such.. the confusion starts.

No worries, the Radian is a very good inverter.. if you want better, you'd have to move up to a Sunny Island.

When I bought my Radian, the Sunny Islands were $5500 each.. which made the choice to go with the Radian easy.. When DC Solar went out of business and the Sunny Islands hit ebay for $1000 each, that was also an easy choice.

 

[wcpastures]

Well I just ordered the Outback Radian GS4048A-01 with the MATE 3 and a FlexMax 80. I did not purchase their pricey "Load Center" so interested if anyone else has rigged one up and how they went about it? Materials to get started with ...