What's a "utility bill"?

[Solarcabin Channel]

For the people considering an off grid system I have been off grid over 20 years with just a small system and have not had a utility bill in all that time.

No bill for electricity, water, sewer, gas and I don't even pay for garbage collection as I haul and compost my own.

The only bills I have are for phone/internet, propane and car insurance/registration.

I could eliminate those if needed and the phone/internet is used mostly for communicating with family, work online and entertainment. I have a wood stove with water heater backup and my solar will run cooking appliances so I could eliminate propane. Last year I got an ebike with a trailer and I can ride to town to resupply with that. An EV car would be a nice addition but would require a much larger expensive system. I may try to build one next year.

My system is ground mount to be safer and make maintenance easier and I have two 400 watt solar setups with LIFEPO4 batts (just replaced the old AGMs) and a 200 watt recharging station using a power station. I have several portable solar panels and power stations I keep charged if I have low sun days in winter. The main system is 1.4Kw with 800Ah of LIFEPO4 batteries.

I have most of the same modern conveniences of any home but my appliances are low power designed for off grid and camping to work with my system. 12 volt water pump for sinks and shower, OD propane water heater, LED lights, two 12/24 volt fridge/freezers, evaporative cooler (low humidity area), laptop, TV, apartment washing machine (hang dryer), induction cooktop, air fryer, toaster oven, electric mower and snow blower, lots of power tools and gadgets.

I have a gas generator for backup but haven't had to use it for over a year. I start it once in awhile just to keep it lubricated.

Everyone's power needs may be different but my point is you can live very comfortably with just a small affordable solar power system most places even in the city. You can set up an off grid system without the hassle of codes, hiring installers, and you can expand a small system until you can cover all your basic needs. Stay connected to the grid and just pay the connection fee and have that as your backup for your own solar power production and you can take care of your families needs in a power emergency.

Ok, hope that helps and winter is coming!

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Nice write up.

Only thing I find askew:

so I could eliminate propane.

and this:

OD propane water heater,

Eliminating propane would require something besides an OD electric water heater. They are incredibly demanding. My 10kW system would only handle the low end ones.

There are some small "OD" electric water heaters, but they actually have a small tank. It might work for you, but it would not support the same usage characteristics as an OD propane water heater.

The best option, while expensive, heat pump water heaters are more efficient than any other option. Low power demand, and if you place them in a warm area, they can contribute to cooling.

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

Nice write up.

Only thing I find askew:



and this:



Eliminating propane would require something besides an OD electric water heater. They are incredibly demanding. My 10kW system would only handle the low end ones.

There are some small "OD" electric water heaters, but they actually have a small tank. It might work for you, but it would not support the same usage characteristics as an OD propane water heater.

The best option, while expensive, heat pump water heaters are more efficient than any other option. Low power demand, and if you place them in a warm area, they can contribute to cooling.

I said that I have a wood stove backup with water heater tank:

" I have a wood stove with water heater backup"

My well is free flowing and I can fill that water tank and heat it with wood and provide scalding hot water.

The OD propane heaters work great for just pennies compared to a heat pump system and I don't need an installer and I can do any maintenance myself.

That is what most off gridders consider being off grid under real life conditions.

Have a great day!

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Good point. Missed that.

 

[Hedges]

How about electric storage water heater as dump load?

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

How about electric storage water heater as dump load?

You could certainly do that but I use my excess power for recharging power stations and tools. I have enough backup to last a week and propane is cheaper than wood and electricity here in the oil patch. Those OD propane water heaters are super efficient and just pennies a use.

 

[yodamota]

we manage a solar dump into a residential water heater. we put 120v to the element and it draws 800 watts. In about 4 hours its plenty hot. if the water heater is on every day it only needs to be on for a few hours with our use. Which is mostly dishes!! showers are every few days

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

we manage a solar dump into a residential water heater. we put 120v to the element and it draws 800 watts. In about 4 hours its plenty hot. if the water heater is on every day it only needs to be on for a few hours with our use. Which is mostly dishes!! showers are every few days

I have considered that but my cabin is small and no room for a water tank heater.

If I had a traditional home I would definitely consider a dump load to that!

 

[jasonojordan]

I have been considering adding in a 50gal storage tank before my propane hot water heater to preheat the water using my outdoor wood stove in the winter to help cut down on the amount of propane needed to get my freezing cold winter well water up to useable temps.

 

[Hedges]

Propane usage even if minimal has to get refilled. And I understand in winter may fill with butane and end up without much usable gas.

You presumably have surplus PV; if you don't, you have a deficit. Unless you can backfill with wood or propane energy source.

When I lived in a trailer, just about everything was outside. Small water heater was inside.

If freezing of tank and pipes doesn't make it infeasible, I'd consider electric storage water heater outside as pre-heater. As Yoda said, you don't even have to change elements. Just feed 120V to existing 240V element, or for lower power or 240V input, wire the two 240V elements in series.

 

[HalfBaked]

For the people considering an off grid system I have been off grid over 20 years with just a small system and have not had a utility bill in all that time.

No bill for electricity, water, sewer, gas and I don't even pay for garbage collection as I haul and compost my own.

The only bills I have are for phone/internet, propane and car insurance/registration.

I could eliminate those if needed and the phone/internet is used mostly for communicating with family, work online and entertainment. I have a wood stove with water heater backup and my solar will run cooking appliances so I could eliminate propane. Last year I got an ebike with a trailer and I can ride to town to resupply with that. An EV car would be a nice addition but would require a much larger expensive system. I may try to build one next year.

My system is ground mount to be safer and make maintenance easier and I have two 400 watt solar setups with LIFEPO4 batts (just replaced the old AGMs) and a 200 watt recharging station using a power station. I have several portable solar panels and power stations I keep charged if I have low sun days in winter. The main system is 1.4Kw with 800Ah of LIFEPO4 batteries.

I have most of the same modern conveniences of any home but my appliances are low power designed for off grid and camping to work with my system. 12 volt water pump for sinks and shower, OD propane water heater, LED lights, two 12/24 volt fridge/freezers, evaporative cooler (low humidity area), laptop, TV, apartment washing machine (hang dryer), induction cooktop, air fryer, toaster oven, electric mower and snow blower, lots of power tools and gadgets.

I have a gas generator for backup but haven't had to use it for over a year. I start it once in awhile just to keep it lubricated.

Everyone's power needs may be different but my point is you can live very comfortably with just a small affordable solar power system most places even in the city. You can set up an off grid system without the hassle of codes, hiring installers, and you can expand a small system until you can cover all your basic needs. Stay connected to the grid and just pay the connection fee and have that as your backup for your own solar power production and you can take care of your families needs in a power emergency.

Ok, hope that helps and winter is coming!

View attachment 171976

I like how you wrapped your porch for winter, makes sense. Makes me wish I had a porch.

I have been considering adding in a 50gal storage tank before my propane hot water heater to preheat the water using my outdoor wood stove in the winter to help cut down on the amount of propane needed to get my freezing cold winter well water up to useable temps.

The ground temp at 30' = average yearly temp for your area. At 10', it will be within 5⁰F of your average yearly temp.
Might be chilly, but should be the same year round.

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

I like how you wrapped your porch for winter, makes sense. Makes me wish I had a porch.



The ground temp at 30' = average yearly temp for your area. At 10', it will be within 5⁰F of your average yearly temp.
Might be chilly, but should be the same year round.

Thanks, I wrap the porch every winter to create a solarium and wind break. That helps heat the cabin on sunny winter days and provides a nice warm place for my propane tanks, working on projects and keeps that cold air from rushing in the cabin when the door is opened.

In summer the plastic comes off and that porch shades the south side to reduce cooling and is my work area and I have my tool chest on the porch. Gets a nice cross breeze with the back door open and I sit in my rocking chair with the dogs in the shade.

Every home needs a porch!

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

I have been considering adding in a 50gal storage tank before my propane hot water heater to preheat the water using my outdoor wood stove in the winter to help cut down on the amount of propane needed to get my freezing cold winter well water up to useable temps.

That is how my system is set up.

My well is free flowing so no pump needed and I refill a 35 gallon RV style tank under the sink to bring that water to room temp. That way it heats fast with the OD water heater on just low.

 

[Hedges]

Thanks, I wrap the porch every winter to create a solarium and wind break. That helps heat the cabin on sunny winter days and provides a nice warm place for my propane tanks,

That would keep a propane leak trapped.
How about also wrap the tank(s) in a bag, seal around hose and any pipe feeding house, have a vent hose from bag to outside? Or other similar arrangement.

Houses sometimes have gas line servicing them underground, popping up in the basement. Others, it pops up to pressure regulator and meter outside. A gas leak elsewhere has been known to follow the trench and fill basement.

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

That would keep a propane leak trapped.
How about also wrap the tank(s) in a bag, seal around hose and any pipe feeding house, have a vent hose from bag to outside? Or other similar arrangement.

Houses sometimes have gas line servicing them underground, popping up in the basement. Others, it pops up to pressure regulator and meter outside. A gas leak elsewhere has been known to follow the trench and fill basement.

The porch floor boards are not sealed and propane is heavier than air and would drift down and out if it leaked. I also have a gas and smoke detector in the cabin that all homes should have.

 

[HalfBaked]

I also have a gas and smoke detector in the cabin that all homes should have.

I agree, I use 3 in a small "cabin" for redundancy that also detect CO.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I agree, I use 3 in a small "cabin" for redundancy that also detect CO.

Same. I have 3 in each trailer in addition to the ones that come installed (and I replace those with current models).

 

[cj5orion]

Wait...EBike with trailer,flat ground?,both ways?,miles ?,but I guess there's always the truck !

 

[Minimoose]

Wait...EBike with trailer,flat ground?,both ways?,miles ?,but I guess there's always the truck !

Something like my e-bike will haul me and a couple hundred extra pounds for many miles with the dual battery set up and a decent powered motor. Of course in the hilly area where I live you still need to pedal to save battery. It's good exercise and fun to boot! I have about 1500 miles on this one so far. I had about 1500 miles on the last one also.

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

View attachment 174282
Something like my e-bike will haul me and a couple hundred extra pounds for many miles with the dual battery set up and a decent powered motor. Of course in the hilly area where I live you still need to pedal to save battery. It's good exercise and fun to boot! I have about 1500 miles on this one so far. I had about 1500 miles on the last one also.

Nice!

I have a similar set up and even put a solar panel on the trailer to charge the ebike.