so their are too many restrictions on posting here and this forum is on its downhill slide...

[Daddy Tanuki]

So at 54 going on 55 I have been a member of many forums, and I think this forum is already on its downward slide and the censoring of members was already active last year. This is a typical issue with all forums as a center group takes control for the original maker of the forum. they act as mods or admins and slowly but surely drive away the posters. starting with the outliers, moving to the average, and the finally the actual professionals.

this forum is now chasing off the outliers. the ones who do not agree with the average of the population and are the predictors of that forum in all reality. Next come the average who over a period of time get tired of the heavy censorship and realize that something is wrong. lastly are the hard corp supporters who generally tend to be the most socialist. when they stop dropping you know its over.

this forum is currently at the outliers.. but it has rapidly progressed to the average.

thoughts?

Ken

 

[svetz]

thoughts? About Moderators... The restrictions on posts have actually loosened since the forums started. Originally moderators could edit or delete posts to remove racial/religious/political slurs, derogatory or inciteful remarks. Last year that workload got too big to handle and Will's preference is to leave them in as it shamed the poster. So, he allowed everyone to edit their own posts, but not to remove derogatory remarks (ref1, ref2). Moderators can no longer edit posts, but they can censor by deleting posts. Primarily the delete ability is to protect the forum from lawsuits. Bottom line: If a moderator is misusing their powers, then report it, and notify Will.

Commentary from the peanut gallery... take it for what it's worth... <1¢.​

About Members...
Members can't censor members in terms of stopping them from saying what they want to say. What they can do is disagree with you. They can take all the facts with references you've marshaled and hand-wave it away with absolutely no proof and say you're an idiot for believing logic and science. You'll never convince them, and yes their similar-believing followers/co-believers will gang up on you.

In the meantime, those that think you're right might not say anything because you've already said it all and they don't want to get involved in long exchanges with people they don't think it's worth arguing with.

I suspect about half the issues that occur are because people are responding to the thread title and missing key aspects from the thread, or they are responding from sensationalized half-truth-baked news.

In terms of the forum topics, I think we do pretty well overall. It's conversations that explore touchy topics such as Covid, Global Warming, or other similar things where it can and does fall apart.

Some of the "touchy" threads have done pretty well, possibly because of the "narrow" focus and caveat in the OP such as What Can I personally do to help against climate change?

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Svetz,

Gladly accepted as fact, but I can't help but think after watching multiple forums go downhill that this one is on its way out. sad, because there is a lot of data here in a really short time (in regards to forum life) but some folks are just too soft for lack of better words. after my personal 3 month suspension for pissing of a few I started looking and watching and seeing the same patterns I saw in several of the Ford "F150" forums and the several rotary forums "RX-7 forum" "EG". Just highly accelerated in regards to this forum. so I stand by my thoughts on this. not bad mouthing anybody, just stating the facts s I see them.

 

[svetz]

Part of that may be the sentiment behind the old saying, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
That is if people don't seek out & reinforce "truth", then platitudes and fake news become predominant.

Of course, there's also's Twain's “Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
I think this is what's happened in a lot of issues (e.g., climate change), people know the person saying something isn't going to change their mind, so there's no point in having the conversation. Hopefully, someone counters stupid things at least once so readers coming to learn realize at a minimum there's controversy and different schools of thought.

My thought on it is if you try to stop them then it is censorship.

Perhaps the real question is what can we do to keep the forums a valuable learning site where people can come to ask questions and not be afraid to be slammed for revealing what they don't know. Possibly this thread needs to be opened for conversation? Fortunately, on the technical stuff, there's very little fake news; although there is some, for example, that the manufacture of solar panels produces more CO2 than burning coal for the same energy.

 

[Bob B]

Svetz,

Gladly accepted as fact, but I can't help but think after watching multiple forums go downhill that this one is on its way out. sad, because there is a lot of data here in a really short time (in regards to forum life) but some folks are just too soft for lack of better words. after my personal 3 month suspension for pissing of a few I started looking and watching and seeing the same patterns I saw in several of the Ford "F150" forums and the several rotary forums "RX-7 forum" "EG". Just highly accelerated in regards to this forum. so I stand by my thoughts on this. not bad mouthing anybody, just stating the facts s I see them.

You are complaining without giving any examples of where things on this forum have gone wrong. Maybe you can provide some examples so people will have an idea what your are talking about.

 

[svetz]

You are complaining without giving any examples of where things on this forum have gone wrong. Maybe you can provide some examples so people will have an idea what your are talking about.

Going into individual incidents could derail the intent of the thread. I also don't think he's concerned about any single incident as much as a general trend where he says in the op:

... I have been a member of many forums, and I think this forum is already on its downward slide ... a ...group takes control... they act as mods or admins and slowly but surely drive away the posters. starting with the outliers, moving to the average, and the finally the actual professionals....this forum is now chasing off the outliers.

I might view driving off the "crazy" vocal fringe as a good thing, but who's to say who exactly is crazy?

But, in the parlance of this thread, we can use your response as an example of where Ken is the "fringe" being "driven off". It's a weak case, but the word choice "complaining" informs the reader you disagree with their findings and the last sentence seeks to place the burden of proof on them rather than offer anything constructive. Ken on the other hand probably believes that everyone has been exasperated at one time or other on the forums, so of course everyone will know what he's talking about (I sure get it) and no proof or specific examples are needed (and if supplied would invite discussion on that case rather than what he wants to talk about).

I get that it's a very typical "guy" thing to break problems down into brass tacks so that they can be resolved one problem at a time. But the problem Ken's raising isn't any one incident and it's a hard topic to discuss. I don't think I got it at first in post #2. I might not even understand it now.

I think Ken's taken a step farther in his observation (hope I'm getting this right Ken) that there's a Darwinian mechanism at play where the "vocal/passionate" posters push out the "I don't care to argue with you" posters and that causes the downfall of the forum, which is something he doesn't want to happen.

 

[Bob B]

Going into individual incidents could derail the intent of the thread. I also don't think he's concerned about any single incident as much as a general trend where he says in the op:


I might view driving off the "crazy" vocal fringe as a good thing, but who's to say who exactly is crazy?

But, in the parlance of this thread, we can use your response as an example of where Ken is the "fringe" being "driven off". It's a weak case, but the word choice "complaining" informs the reader you disagree with their findings and the last sentence seeks to place the burden of proof on them rather than offer anything constructive. Ken on the other hand probably believes that everyone has been exasperated at one time or other on the forums, so of course everyone will know what he's talking about (I sure get it) and no proof or specific examples are needed (and if supplied would invite discussion on that case rather than what he wants to talk about).

I get that it's a very typical "guy" thing to break problems down into brass tacks so that they can be resolved one problem at a time. But the problem Ken's raising isn't any one incident and it's a hard topic to discuss. I don't think I got it at first in post #2.

Ken's taken a step farther in his observation (hope I'm getting this right Ken) that there's a Darwinian mechanism at play where the "vocal/passionate" posters push out the "I don't care to argue with you" posters and that causes the downfall of the forum, which is something he doesn't want to happen.

I could make up any number of theories about the future of the forum ... without something tangible to indicate the theory has validity ... there can be no validity to the theory.

 

[svetz]

... without something tangible to indicate the theory has validity ... there can be no validity to the theory.

Keep in mind theories and facts are different things. Theories are relationships thought to be true between repeatable observations/measurements and occurrence. By that definition, Ken does have a theory based on his personal observations.

In fact, your last response supports his theory in that it marginalizes his opinion by saying their theory has no validity; that conclusion ignores their observations.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

I am making an observation As I said before I watched it happen at the RX7clubforum first and later at a truck forum. The former is for all intents and purposes dead at this point in time. The Truck forum started its slide and then made major changes to itself internaly and is still a busy place, though some of its sub forums did die off.

I hope this forum has not started its slide, and I could be very well chicken little at this point or simply off my meds.

I think that the lifetime of any forum is finite and to keep it running the longest takes (assuming no changes in content) a lot of effort. Figuring out the right balance is hard in any organization or group as the dynamics can be very difficult to divine.

 

[Bob B]

I am making an observation As I said before I watched it happen at the RX7clubforum first and later at a truck forum. The former is for all intents and purposes dead at this point in time. The Truck forum started its slide and then made major changes to itself internaly and is still a busy place, though some of its sub forums did die off.

I hope this forum has not started its slide, and I could be very well chicken little at this point or simply off my meds.

I think that the lifetime of any forum is finite and to keep it running the longest takes (assuming no changes in content) a lot of effort. Figuring out the right balance is hard in any organization or group as the dynamics can be very difficult to divine.

That all sounds very reasonable .... that the owners and moderators of this forum need to pay attention to what has caused the demise of other forums so it isn't repeated here.

But .... the title of the thread is ....

so their are too many restrictions on posting here and this forum is on its downhill slide...​

I'm not trying to be mean about this ... I was just trying to understand why you seemed to think this forum was going south.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

just watching the thread from the outside... the reactions by various members and watching the members vs visitors numbers every single time I sign in. I see the same stats popping up the same as I saw ont he RX-7 forum and the F150 forum prior to the 7 clubs current rather dismal stats and the resurgence of the F150 club. the F150 has new models coming out bringing in new members the RX-7 club obviously did not as its a discontinued model. some would say it correct in regards to no new models on the RX-7.. compare that to several other vehicle specific forums where they have no new models as well. its a percentage thing.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

So at 54 going on 55 I have been a member of many forums, and I think this forum is already on its downward slide and the censoring of members was already active last year. This is a typical issue with all forums as a center group takes control for the original maker of the forum. they act as mods or admins and slowly but surely drive away the posters. starting with the outliers, moving to the average, and the finally the actual professionals.

this forum is now chasing off the outliers. the ones who do not agree with the average of the population and are the predictors of that forum in all reality. Next come the average who over a period of time get tired of the heavy censorship and realize that something is wrong. lastly are the hard corp supporters who generally tend to be the most socialist. when they stop dropping you know its over.

this forum is currently at the outliers.. but it has rapidly progressed to the average.

thoughts?

Ken

So in 9 months you're ready to call it toast? I've only been here a month and find the information available here is extensive and there has been someone there to bounce things off of every time I've sought it out? I've been involved in these message boards for over 15 years and this one is as easy going as I've seen.
What specifically does your complaint about censorship have to do with? Use of profanity or demoralizing comments? Political posturing? What kind of things are being censored or deleted by moderators? Does it keep me from researching DIY solar projects here or reading about others' research and experiences, or sharing mine?

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

So in 9 months you're ready to call it toast? I've only been here a month and find the information available here is extensive and there has been someone there to bounce things off of every time I've sought it out? I've been involved in these message boards for over 15 years and this one is as easy going as I've seen.
What specifically does your complaint about censorship have to do with? Use of profanity or demoralizing comments? Political posturing? What kind of things are being censored or deleted by moderators? Does it keep me from researching DIY solar projects here or reading about others' research and experiences, or sharing mine?

Reread the post directly above yours. it should answer your questions at least some of them. I personally am not calling quits on anything just commenting on what I have observed.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

Reread the post directly above yours. it should answer your questions at least some of them. I personally am not calling quits on anything just commenting on what I have observed.

Stats huh? Okay.

So at 54 going on 55 I have been a member of many forums, and I think this forum is already on its downward slide and the censoring of members was already active last year. This is a typical issue with all forums as a center group takes control for the original maker of the forum. they act as mods or admins and slowly but surely drive away the posters. starting with the outliers, moving to the average, and the finally the actual professionals.

65 going on 66 myself and also been a member of many forums as well as admin and mod. Currently own a private 3000+ member forum board for professional inside wireman. It's had it's ups and downs over its 15 years in existance and I'm its 3rd owner. I'm just not seeing what you're seeing but I lived through the wild west years B.F. (Before Facebook).

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Stats huh? Okay.

65 going on 66 myself and also been a member of many forums as well as admin and mod. Currently own a private 3000+ member forum board for professional inside wireman. It's had it's ups and downs over its 15 years in existance and I'm its 3rd owner. I'm just not seeing what you're seeing but I lived through the wild west years B.F. (Before Facebook).

yeah I have as well, I left several forums myself over the years. Never owned a forum but was a mod and an admin on a couple. just don't have the time to contribute in that area any more. It just depresses me at times so I made a comment, i guess it hurt some feelings. This forum has a lot to offer so it is what it is.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

yeah I have as well, I left several forums myself over the years. Never owned a forum but was a mod and an admin on a couple. just don't have the time to contribute in that area any more. It just depresses me at times so I made a comment, i guess it hurt some feelings. This forum has a lot to offer so it is what it is.

To be clear you didn't hurt my feelings. I have no dog in the hunt. Usually when I se a post like this it's because the poster got his feelings hurt and is looking for company. Misery loves company.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

To be clear you didn't hurt my feelings. I have no dog in the hunt. Usually when I se a post like this it's because the poster got his feelings hurt and is looking for company. Misery loves company.

I am going to stop replying to this as I have seen nothing constructive come from it.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

An appropriate end to a non constructive thread.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

An appropriate end to a non constructive thread.

This is a perfect example, if I were to tell you exactly how I feel about your worthless comments I would be having arguments with the mods... So please go yourself

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

his is a perfect example, if I were to tell you exactly how I feel about your worthless comments I would be having arguments with the mods... So please go yourself

...but then you would have nobody and I fear the loneliness would be more than you could bear and you might do something to harm yourself?

 

[WYtreasure]

I am going to stop replying to this as I have seen nothing constructive come from it.

Sometimes it takes a while for the "constructive" to surface. Wading through the rest is why some folks wear boots ?

 

[BMcL]

About Moderators... The restrictions on posts have actually loosened since the forums started. Originally moderators could edit or delete posts to remove racial/religious/political slurs, derogatory or inciteful remarks. Last year that workload got too big to handle and Will's preference is to leave them in as it shamed the poster. So, he allowed everyone to edit their own posts, but not to remove derogatory remarks (ref1, ref2). Moderators can no longer edit posts, but they can censor by deleting posts. Primarily the delete ability is to protect the forum from lawsuits. Bottom line: If a moderator is misusing their powers, then report it, and notify Will.

Commentary from the peanut gallery... take it for what it's worth... <1¢.​

About Members...
Members can't censor members in terms of stopping them from saying what they want to say. What they can do is disagree with you. They can take all the facts with references you've marshaled and hand-wave it away with absolutely no proof and say you're an idiot for believing logic and science. You'll never convince them, and yes their similar-believing followers/co-believers will gang up on you.

In the meantime, those that think you're right might not say anything because you've already said it all and they don't want to get involved in long exchanges with people they don't think it's worth arguing with.

I suspect about half the issues that occur are because people are responding to the thread title and missing key aspects from the thread, or they are responding from sensationalized half-truth-baked news.

In terms of the forum topics, I think we do pretty well overall. It's conversations that explore touchy topics such as Covid, Global Warming, or other similar things where it can and does fall apart.

Some of the "touchy" threads have done pretty well, possibly because of the "narrow" focus and caveat in the OP such as What Can I personally do to help against climate change?

It would be nice if this were true but the DIY Solar forum reeks from hypocrisy.
I was given a 30 day ban because ? Using the F word ? Using foul language ? Ignoring warnings from mods ?

NOPE !

I received this message about one month ago after being in a forum where we were debating vaccinations, treatments, mask requirements, etc.

It was a typical democrat-republican or liberal vs conservative debate :

Oops! We ran into some problems.

You have been banned for the following reason: Constant complaints from other (democrat) members……

Your ban will be lifted on Mar 1, 2022 at 2:00 AM.
-------------

We Believe in Free Speech at DIY Solar Forum (in unmoderated forums)​

There. I fixed it for you.

No more lies.

 

[WYtreasure]

It would be nice if this were true but the DIY Solar forum reeks from hypocrisy.
I was given a 30 day ban because ? Using the F word ? Using foul language ? Ignoring warnings from mods ?

NOPE !

I received this message about one month ago after being in a forum where we were debating vaccinations, treatments, mask requirements, etc.

It was a typical democrat-republican or liberal vs conservative debate :

Oops! We ran into some problems.

You have been banned for the following reason: Constant complaints from other (democrat) members……

Your ban will be lifted on Mar 1, 2022 at 2:00 AM.
-------------

We Believe in Free Speech at DIY Solar Forum (in unmoderated forums)​

There. I fixed it for you.

No more lies.

Apparently you were not alone on vacation. I was wondering why that thread came to a screeching halt. Now I know, maybe.

 

[Bob B]

It would be nice if this were true but the DIY Solar forum reeks from hypocrisy.
I was given a 30 day ban because ? Using the F word ? Using foul language ? Ignoring warnings from mods ?

NOPE !

I received this message about one month ago after being in a forum where we were debating vaccinations, treatments, mask requirements, etc.

It was a typical democrat-republican or liberal vs conservative debate :

Oops! We ran into some problems.

You have been banned for the following reason: Constant complaints from other (democrat) members……

Your ban will be lifted on Mar 1, 2022 at 2:00 AM.
-------------

We Believe in Free Speech at DIY Solar Forum (in unmoderated forums)​

There. I fixed it for you.

No more lies.

Wondered where you went ..... It's pretty funny that the guys who were name calling everyone in sight with a continuous string of crude comments are also the ones reporting other people ..... But, I think it would be tough if you are a moderator and get a complaint(s) without knowing the whole story.

@WYtreasure That thread mostly has slowed down because we slowed down feeding the trolls on there.

 

[BMcL]

Wondered where you went ..... It's pretty funny that the guys who were name calling everyone in sight with a continuous string of crude comments are also the ones reporting other people ..... But, I think it would be tough if you are a moderator and get a complaint(s) without knowing the whole story.

@WYtreasure That thread mostly has slowed down because we slowed down feeding the trolls on there.

Thanks guys.

Will Prowse needs to monitor the behavior of his moderators.

But I have emailed him with no response, so I suppose he supports censorship.

It's just pathetic, especially from a guy who worked so hard to get where he is.