Solar levelized cost of electricity is 29% lower than any fossil fuel alternative

[Sanwizard]

No, but I am saying I am not convinced human caused changes are significant, compared to larger trends driven by the Earth itself and the solar system.

I am not an expert on the subject by any means. Can't say I have studied it in any detail.
I accept that CO2 absorbs some light. The claim of sea level rising 3' seems plausible to me, as I have made my own estimate of Antarctic ice volume and ocean's surface area. But I also understand that the Continental Shelf, now 400' under water, was ocean front property 15,000 years ago. So pardon me if I turn a deaf ear to Chicken Little.

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So I know just enough to be highly doubtful of the claims I hear. Especially when I hear the solutions (take money from people), and the current approach of giving consideration to third-world developing nations like China, which is only the second country to land hardware on mars if I recall correctly. And is a near-peer adversary, apparently ahead of the US in some aspects.

Guys, there is already a very long thread on this topic, started by @svetz.

 

[Checkthisout]

If C02 is a pollutant then so is oxygen. Oxygen in PPM is more deadly than C02 if that's the train if thought we want to employ.

The word subsidies is broad in scope and can mean anything from normal depreciation to outright using taxpayer money to actually pay for whatever it is.

You can't tell tit from tat based on that word.

 

[OffGridForGood]

If C02 is a pollutant then so is oxygen. Oxygen in PPM is more deadly than C02 if that's the train if thought we want to employ.

Oxygen levels from pre-industrial level to today have not doubled. in fact they are nearly identical.
CO2 levels are double. and rising.
Higher CO2 levels in the atmosphere increases heat retention and alter how heat moves around the globe. This ultimately affects climate.
The danger we may have set ourselves up for is unpredicatable weather, which will spell trouble for farming, and last time I checked, we need farms to feed everyone.

 

[45North]

This, I'm not sure is true.
We have photos showing past weather that recent decades haven't matched.

We have measurements today from places not measured before.
And I'm familiar with what happens when measurement methods change.
You're going to have to use ice cores today and compare to ice cores from eons ago, before I start to believe measurements are equivalent.

We have a canal through town here that we've been skating on every winter for 50 years. Last winter for the first time it never opened because the ice wasn't thick enough!
This seems to be the new normal.

 

[Checkthisout]

Oxygen levels from pre-industrial level to today have not doubled. in fact they are nearly identical.
CO2 levels are double. and rising.
Higher CO2 levels in the atmosphere increases heat retention and alter how heat moves around the globe. This ultimately affects climate.
The danger we may have set ourselves up for is unpredicatable weather, which will spell trouble for farming, and last time I checked, we need farms to feed everyone.

Earth's C02 levels were highest at a point when the largest reptiles roamed the planet.

I mean, I can blindly say that high C02 levels increases earth's life-supporting capabilities.

I was also referencing c02 vs 02 and someone try8ng to say c02 is toxic. Oxygen is way more toxic than c02.

And yes, solar has a place in high sun areas.


We don't have to vilify fossil fuels in order to justify our use of solar.

 

[Woody]

I need more kool-aid or “re-education camp time” I guess in order to ignore the fact that cost of power generation is just one factor of many factors that need to be considered in the selection/decision process. So nice that someone claims 29% lower…blah blah blah so what. How did they twist/sandbag the statistics this time?

Solar only works with quality sunlight. Clouds, dust, smoke, night time… solar production goes down/goes away. Too far North or South, solar not a good energy source. Lastly, without storage you have only limited time and power to run electrical loads while you’re producing it. Storage allows you to continue using power until you can recharge it. Too much draw or too many days with little power coming in… No power for You. And you never have enough storage!

Anyone who actually has used solar knows and understands these pros and cons. Solar has its place but so too does the need for cheap plentiful and scalable power sources. I can’t turn up a wind or solar power generator like one can with a fossil fuel plant. Reactors are good too but they are best for base loading.

I’m all in for fusion plants but that’s not going to be commercially available for the near term. Hopefully in the next 30yrs.?? Meanwhile solar and wind isn’t going to be the bridge that transition todays society from fossil fuel to a 100% sustainable power. You think it can? Let’s have California go 100% green energy at midnight Dec. 31, 2023 aka this coming new years. Can you imagine the societal collapse within the first 24hrs, first week,… I don’t think they’d survive a full month. The citizens would let their voices be heard and every fossil burning generator restated ASAP. The Green movement would be over.

We can pontificate about carbon dioxide, climate change, false eco prophets , bird strikes, insect death, solar ground heating/cooling affects, down stream wind/climate issue, etc. but those are all rabbit holes for long discussions. To sustain and grow a modern society (assuming that’s what you want to do but there are those who want to contract it instead) we need cheap reliable scalable energy that minimizes impacts upon the environment. Covering the world in solar and wind farms isn’t the energy solution that the world needs. These massive solar and wind farms do more harm than good. And we haven’t even mentioned the ecological damage from obtaining the materials to make them.

 

[SparkyJJO]

And we haven’t even mentioned the ecological damage from obtaining the materials to make them.

This is a good point that seems to be forgotten.

Can talk about CO2 and carbon having been "sequestered" for millions of years (has it really?) but what about the mining process for all these materials needed for batteries and panels? Lithium mining is not exactly a "green" process. Let's face it, mining for ANYTHING is going to have side effects. Let's not get all twisted up in thinking that somehow just because we can harness power from the sun or wind means it is really that much "greener" than other stuff, when the entire picture is considered.

Solar definitely has its place (as does wind and other things) - I have it on my roof, and I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe it - but as already mentioned solar (and wind) are not the end all be all super environmentally friendly final thing or whatever. Most here can tell you that you get into December and January and solar just sucks. Too much clouds, not enough sun hours, etc.. .all during a time of year you need more energy to keep warm.

I got it though - just burn trees, plant trees, grow trees, burn them agan. Full perfect rotation of carbon. You're welcome

 

[OffGridForGood]

Lithium mining is not exactly a "green" process

very true, sodium may be a better option.
to the point, Lithium is not used for making solar panels.

 

[SparkyJJO]

very true, sodium may be a better option.
to the point, Lithium is not used for making solar panels.

But solar panels are useless at night, so you need either batteries or some other form of generation when dark/cloudy/etc.

 

[Sanwizard]

Oxygen levels from pre-industrial level to today have not doubled. in fact they are nearly identical.
CO2 levels are double. and rising.
Higher CO2 levels in the atmosphere increases heat retention and alter how heat moves around the globe. This ultimately affects climate.
The danger we may have set ourselves up for is unpredicatable weather, which will spell trouble for farming, and last time I checked, we need farms to feed everyone.

Nah, the WEF wants us to eat bugs. The globalists hate meat also. I think their goal is de-population anyway.

Its happening anyway with all the wars. I really dont thing CO2 is a priority at all. I am more worried about carjackings, gang robberies in the cities, inflation, energy prices due to crazy climate policies, cyberwar, nuclear war, millions of illegals and terrorists coming over the border, Antifa, BLM, a brain dead president starting WW3, and governments around the world becoming marxist communists removing freedoms from their citizens.

Sweden and San Francisco are perfect examples. They used to be a wonderful place to visit. They are now becoming crime ridden wastelands. CO2 is NOT the issue. The issue is the politicians and entitled grifters who want control and money scaring people about CO2.

 

[svetz]

...

View attachment 182440

On the graph, the "0" timescale doesn't reflect recent changes. This graph below is more recent from NASA in 2022 for CO2:

In terms of mankind, this image gives you an idea of what temperature for the last few million years has been (note each block is a very different timescale). So, the earth has been a lot warmer (e.g., time of the dinosaurs). Historically, most radical temperature shifts also mark extinction events.

​

Different places are warming at different rates, the poles for example are warming the fastest. Here are the North Atlantic temperatures:

LCOE
Solar and wind have both had the lowest LCOEs and yes it is in the interest of the Utility to build and control renewable power so they have something to sell. Note that this analysis from Lazard's removes subsidies:

​

LCOS But the wind doesn't always blow and the sun doesn't always shine. What's been holding renewables back is the cost of energy storage in some locations (e.g., hydro is cheap, but not available everywhere). Without space-based solar arrays, you'll always need energy storage for periods of no wind/sunshine. But that is changing as energy storage solutions become less expensive (e.g., lithium batteries are already cheaper than peaker plants). You can read more on the Levelized Cost of Storage here. With new recent battery innovations, prices are expected to fall again as they did in 2015. Fossil fuel prices are highly variable, but as they go up it just makes their proposition less favorable.

 

[Q-Dog]

This is a good point that seems to be forgotten.

Can talk about CO2 and carbon having been "sequestered" for millions of years (has it really?) but what about the mining process for all these materials needed for batteries and panels? Lithium mining is not exactly a "green" process. Let's face it, mining for ANYTHING is going to have side effects. Let's not get all twisted up in thinking that somehow just because we can harness power from the sun or wind means it is really that much "greener" than other stuff, when the entire picture is considered.

Solar definitely has its place (as does wind and other things) - I have it on my roof, and I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe it - but as already mentioned solar (and wind) are not the end all be all super environmentally friendly final thing or whatever. Most here can tell you that you get into December and January and solar just sucks. Too much clouds, not enough sun hours, etc.. .all during a time of year you need more energy to keep warm.

I got it though - just burn trees, plant trees, grow trees, burn them agan. Full perfect rotation of carbon. You're welcome

Right. Because mining coal is such an environmentally benign process? Have you ever seen an open pit coal mine? Or what happens to all the stuff that gets removed in mountain top removal mining?

And drilling holes for oil and gas production isn't exactly clean either. I've been on lots of oil rigs, on and offshore. They leak and dump stuff on the ground or into the water. I won't even get into all the rigs Ive been on in the middle of formerly pristine forests, bulldozed to make space for the rigs and pipelines. Or our eroding coast, sped up by cutting canals to expedite oil exploration, with spoil banks diverting natural water flow and allowing salt water intrusion that destroys the estuaries where much of our seafood comes from.

They say the gulf of Mexico will eventually recover from the BP/deepwater horizon spill. Eventually.

Citing mining as not green at this point in human development is laughable. We've been mining for thousands of years.

 

[svetz]

...And we can see for ourselves more extreme weather events, sea temps rising and glaciers melting.

One way to "see" it is by how much weather disasters cost us (note that the numbers are adjusted for inflation):

 

[svetz]

USGS Volcano Notice - DOI-USGS-HVO-2023-12-07T10:28:07-08:00

volcanoes.usgs.gov

And I suppose it is normal to measure ambient air pollution for a city right at the tailpipe of an automobile?

Its numbers match up with other observations and they're not unaware of the problems being on a volcano. You might be interested in: https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/about/co2_measurements.html

 

[SparkyJJO]

Right. Because mining coal is such an environmentally benign process? Have you ever seen an open pit coal mine? Or what happens to all the stuff that gets removed in mountain top removal mining?

And drilling holes for oil and gas production isn't exactly clean either. I've been on lots of oil rigs, on and offshore. They leak and dump stuff on the ground or into the water. I won't even get into all the rigs Ive been on in the middle of formerly pristine forests, bulldozed to make space for the rigs and pipelines. Or our eroding coast, sped up by cutting canals to expedite oil exploration, with spoil banks diverting natural water flow and allowing salt water intrusion that destroys the estuaries where much of our seafood comes from.

They say the gulf of Mexico will eventually recover from the BP/deepwater horizon spill. Eventually.

Citing mining as not green at this point in human development is laughable. We've been mining for thousands of years.

Read what I wrote again. Did I say mining coal is benign? No. I said ALL mining has its impacts. I was simply reminding that solar requires batteries to be useful (huge amounts of it too, particularly if talking grid scale), and batteries require lithium or other materials, and the mining process has its impacts, so pretending that solar is perfectly green and has no environmental impacts is phooey. Everything has an impact, some more than others. I don't know how more or less nasty lithium mining is compared to coal.

But if you want to talk bulldozing - large solar fields require tons of bulldozing if you want to put them in where there are forests too.

I think solar is great in the desert where not much lives anyway, and on private property for small scale stuff. But sticking a solar field in the middle of Ohio is a dumb idea.

 

[OPTIMALSOLAR]

If one really cares they can do a lot with a few relatively small changes.

1. Self garden organically. Plant diversely and smartly. Improves soil dramatically, increases diversity of life, especially good for pollinators. Sucks co2, delivers o2. While, shoot out Chem lawn and alike tires.

2. Decrease carbon production thru renewables and sensible usage practices. Aka don't be wasteful. What pollutes is generally bad for the planet. Consider that when making choices. Stop buying bottled water in any fashion a good place to start.

3. Do it yourself. If you expect polis to fix the woes of the environment you are far more optimistic than I.

 

[Checkthisout]

One way to "see" it is by how much weather disasters cost us (note that the numbers are adjusted for inflation):

Are they adjusted for population increases in areas where past disasters occurred?

A tornado passing through Arkansas forty years ago wouldn't have hit much.

 

[houseofancients]

Are they adjusted for population increases in areas where past disasters occurred?

A tornado passing through Arkansas forty years ago wouldn't have hit much.

really ?
we're down to tornado's now ?

i mean mass flooding, snow loads going wild in europe , forrest fires on an unseen scale...

i know it it all a bit scary, but putting ones head in the sand, and keep doing what we have been doing won't help here

 

[Q-Dog]

Read what I wrote again. Did I say mining coal is benign? No. I said ALL mining has its impacts. I was simply reminding that solar requires batteries to be useful (huge amounts of it too, particularly if talking grid scale), and batteries require lithium or other materials, and the mining process has its impacts, so pretending that solar is perfectly green and has no environmental impacts is phooey. Everything has an impact, some more than others. I don't know how more or less nasty lithium mining is compared to coal.

But if you want to talk bulldozing - large solar fields require tons of bulldozing if you want to put them in where there are forests too.

I think solar is great in the desert where not much lives anyway, and on private property for small scale stuff. But sticking a solar field in the middle of Ohio is a dumb idea.

So, we should stop all mining immediately? I guess I don't understand why coal mining is good, but lithium mining is bad.
We burn the coal and oil. We dont burn the lithium.

 

[Sanwizard]

This is a good point that seems to be forgotten.

Can talk about CO2 and carbon having been "sequestered" for millions of years (has it really?) but what about the mining process for all these materials needed for batteries and panels? Lithium mining is not exactly a "green" process. Let's face it, mining for ANYTHING is going to have side effects. Let's not get all twisted up in thinking that somehow just because we can harness power from the sun or wind means it is really that much "greener" than other stuff, when the entire picture is considered.

Solar definitely has its place (as does wind and other things) - I have it on my roof, and I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe it - but as already mentioned solar (and wind) are not the end all be all super environmentally friendly final thing or whatever. Most here can tell you that you get into December and January and solar just sucks. Too much clouds, not enough sun hours, etc.. .all during a time of year you need more energy to keep warm.

I got it though - just burn trees, plant trees, grow trees, burn them agan. Full perfect rotation of carbon. You're welcome

All the mining equipment burns fossil fuels, and all the EV's are charged with Coal. What if all the climate scientists were forced to actually use only non-fossil fuel energy and products? They would be in a cave burning trees for warmth, and walking barefoot.

Even bicycle tires are made from fossil fuels, as are the soles of most shoes and sneakers.

Just stop oil Nazis are just dim witted lemmings and useful idiots.

Please let me know what your life would be like if you had no access to anything in the enclosed list of products.