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diy solar

Stuck at first-time 2000W solar setup on boat

I think your later posts of 4 batteries groups is better with your choice of BMS’s. It will be easier to keep four batteries in sync and four will provide all the needed amps.
Okay, but what I mean is: as a principle, why is it generally better to have multiple smaller groups of batteries than one bigger group? You say 'in sync'. Do you mean that it will be easier for the system to keep the SoC over all the batteries at an equal level?
 
There are issues on both sides…

I think in principle it would be better to have one or two big battery groups. But, the issue is with your chosen bms, you need several battery groups to get enough amps for your inverter loads. (And yes I think you picked a good bms).

You don’t want too many battery groups, because trying to manage “too many” would be more difficult.
Some of the challenges will be - certain batteries groups will charge (and discharge) at different rates than other battery groups (due to slight differences in the resistance of the cables). Over time you will need to check and possibly correct that. You may find that one battery doesn’t get charged enough.

If you do a good job on your cables, it could be slight enough that it doesn’t matter, or every______ you may need to charge a certain battery to keep them all balanced and in sync.

Let us know your experience of what happens… we all learn from each other.
 
Right, so what you're saying is with one bank it's harder / impossible to draw as many amps than from smaller banks, correct? Is that due to resistance?

Regarding charging: is it okay / advisable to use the Multiplus to top balance the cells as well (while closely monitoring each cell's / battery's SoC of course) or is it better to just get a cheap battery charger for that instead before I connect the Multiplus?

And yes, I will most definitely share my findings when everything is up and running!
 
With one bank - with your bms- you could only get 150amps from that massive battery. However, with a Batrium, Orion, or Rec-bms with a contactor you are only limiting by the cells - not the bms. So with the right bus bar arrangement you could pull 1400 amps at 12v at a 1C rate with your cells ( I have no idea how big that wire would have to be…)

To top balance the cells you need a power supply - so you can set the voltage to 3.65v. Never charge your cells in series without a bms attached. What some people do is to put 4cells in series(w/bms) charge with Multiplus to something like 13.8v. Then put the cells in parallel and finish top balancing with the adjustable power supply. Then repeat for the next set of cells. It will be a long process. Read up on it more on this site.
 
With one bank - with your bms- you could only get 150amps from that massive battery. However, with a Batrium, Orion, or Rec-bms with a contactor you are only limiting by the cells - not the bms. So with the right bus bar arrangement you could pull 1400 amps at 12v at a 1C rate with your cells ( I have no idea how big that wire would have to be…)
Ah, right. I think there’s a misconception here. To reiterate: I have 14 BMS units, so one per 4 cells, i.e. per individual battery, not one for the entire bank/group. This means I should theoretically be able to pull 14 X 150A = 2100 amps, even if I build one bank, right?

To top balance the cells you need a power supply - so you can set the voltage to 3.65v. Never charge your cells in series without a bms attached. What some people do is to put 4cells in series(w/bms) charge with Multiplus to something like 13.8v. Then put the cells in parallel and finish top balancing with the adjustable power supply. Then repeat for the next set of cells. It will be a long process. Read up on it more on this site.
Ah yes, course. That was a fairly stupid question of mine, sorry ?
 
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The windlass, I still would run it from the engine battery.
The sheet winches, not much of a problem. If you see you BMS complaining about it - it shouldn't - just luff or bear away a little (depending on the situation), get a little slack on the sheet, pre-trim it. We lazies do that anyway ;·)

Whereas, if you get a BMS cutoff on the windlass... you might find yourself in a slightly hairy situation.

Come to think of it... you have two engines. You could have one charge the starter battery and the other charge the house bank(s).
Just a matter of getting the appropriate regulator for the alternator. I would consider it.
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Ah, right. I think there’s a misconception here. To reiterate: I have 1 4 BMS units, so one per 4 cells, i.e. per individual battery, not one for the entire bank/group. This means I should theoretically be able to pull 14 X 150A = 2100 amps, even if I build one bank, right?


Ah yes, course. That was a fairly stupid question of mine, sorry ?
Ok we are thinking of very different ways to wire the cells.

Your thoughts of fourteen different 12v batteries- each battery in a 4s - so you need 14 bms’s. 1p4s14p is how that would be written.

My thought. Take 4 cells and parallel them into a super cell. Then take four supercells into a 4s battery attach one bms then repeat three more times 4p4s4p. You would only use 4 bms’s - keep some for spares - sell the rest. You would have four 400ah batteries to parallel and keep the voltages in sync.

Either can be done - my opinion is fourteen will become unwieldy- you could also do a two cell supercell so 2p4s7p. Using seven bms’s. That will cut the sync work and cables in half.

When paralleling the batteries you need to use exactly the same length of battery cables to a bus bar. You need to make sure they charge and discharge at the same rate.

Good luck with whatever choice you make!
 
Ok we are thinking of very different ways to wire the cells.

Your thoughts of fourteen different 12v batteries- each battery in a 4s - so you need 14 bms’s. 1p4s14p is how that would be written.

My thought. Take 4 cells and parallel them into a super cell. Then take four supercells into a 4s battery attach one bms then repeat three more times 4p4s4p. You would only use 4 bms’s - keep some for spares - sell the rest. You would have four 400ah batteries to parallel and keep the voltages in sync.

Either can be done - my opinion is fourteen will become unwieldy- you could also do a two cell supercell so 2p4s7p. Using seven bms’s. That will cut the sync work and cables in half.

When paralleling the batteries you need to use exactly the same length of battery cables to a bus bar. You need to make sure they charge and discharge at the same rate.

Good luck with whatever choice you make!
At the risk of offending someone - and I really do not intend to - I think I need to try and provide some "translation" here.

I think people who have gone with REC BMS tend to believe that putting lots of cells in parallel in a battery is great. This has been especially prevalent on boats, where things like the Wakespeed WS500 and Victron Cerbo GX have reshaped how people do things. The reason is that (1) the Wakespeed can really only talk to the REC, and (2) the Cerbo GX can really only take a battery status from one "battery". So you put (potentially) a bunch of cells in parallel, and then put that in series with the likes. The result is a 4p4s or a 16p4s battery that is all managed by a single BMS, and that BMS is made by REC.

My observation is that there is a "REC BMS" zeal that sometimes shocks the rest of us. I'm not sure I understand it, but I don't think they are completely wrong. I just think we are looking at it from a different starting point. If you can only monitor / interface with one BMS, it should be one that works with what you want. If it is a potential sub-optimal config of your battery cells, well... that can be debated.

Many of us here (including me) don't think it is a good idea to put a bunch of cells in parallel. But we also don't deal with the issues on a boat. So our viewpoint is different, and neither is necessarily wrong.

In fairness, @Rocketman is suggesting a hybrid config, but I'm not sure it bridges the gap between the two camps. There isn't any real "complication" in having 7 or 14 BMS's, as long as you trust what they do and check on them periodically.

I have helped someone upgrade their boat for LFP, but don't live in that world. So I have seen the whole spectrum of discussion on REC, parallel cells, and REC vs everything that is cheaper than REC (which is almost everything). There is no right answer.
 
Wow, this is quite the plot twist! I have literally never heard of this concept. Thanks for the clarification @Rocketman and thanks for the further dissection @Horsefly.

2 things that come to mind directly when I'm reading this:

1. Is there really a difference in viewpoint on boats vs non-boat? Power is power, right? Except for the fact that boats use more DC power than RVs (or homes for that matter), but I don't see that fact being linked to this equation.
2. I don't have the REC BMS. I have the Overkill aka JBD BMS. How much does the suggestion / option of going the supercell route apply to my setup?
 
The windlass, I still would run it from the engine battery.
I'll see if that's still doable. Potential bottleneck here is that the windlass is on the front of the boat, and the batteries in the stern. That's mucho metros of high power 12VDC wiring that needs to be added / fed thru the boat, which is not an attractive idea.
The sheet winches, not much of a problem. If you see you BMS complaining about it - it shouldn't - just luff or bear away a little (depending on the situation), get a little slack on the sheet, pre-trim it. We lazies do that anyway ;·)
Lol makes sense.

Whereas, if you get a BMS cutoff on the windlass... you might find yourself in a slightly hairy situation.
So far so good on similar boats with similar setups, but it is indeed something to keep into consideration.

Come to think of it... you have two engines. You could have one charge the starter battery and the other charge the house bank(s).
Just a matter of getting the appropriate regulator for the alternator. I would consider it.
Yes and no. Most catamaran owners don't actually run both engines together if it's not really necessary. The fuel consumption is way higher than the speed you gain. So, for instance, if we have to motor for 3 hours, we'll do 1,5 on one engine and 1,5 on the other, which unfortunately makes your suggestion less practical. With that being said, I do intend to integrate alternator charing to both the starter batteries and house bank. I just don't know if my 115~130A stock alternators can handle that as-is (as mentioned before, I can't access my engine bays until the weekend). If they can, no problem. If they can't, modifications will be needed, which I don't want to invest time and effort (or money) into right now. We've had our boat for 1,5 years and it's been in refit since day one. We're splashing on March 15th and wanna get outta here ASAP.
 
Is there really a difference in viewpoint on boats vs non-boat? Power is power, right? Except for the fact that boats use more DC power than RVs (or homes for that matter), but I don't see that fact being linked to this equation.
Yes, that's it. There are a few 12VDC loads on a sailboat that are bigger than what you will likely see anywhere else. The bow thruster on the boat I was helping to upgrade draws just under 500A. I'm not sure why everything has stayed at 12V for all these years, but it seems like that is what people stick with.
 
the windlass is on the front of the boat, and the batteries in the stern

So what does it run off now? A separate battery at the bow?

Most catamaran owners don't actually run both engines together if it's not really necessary.

All the ones I know do :·)
It never occurred to me to run only one engine (I've captained a few), but I guess it makes sense.
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Wow, this is quite the plot twist! I have literally never heard of this concept. Thanks for the clarification @Rocketman and thanks for the further dissection @Horsefly.

2 things that come to mind directly when I'm reading this:

1. Is there really a difference in viewpoint on boats vs non-boat? Power is power, right? Except for the fact that boats use more DC power than RVs (or homes for that matter), but I don't see that fact being linked to this equation.
2. I don't have the REC BMS. I have the Overkill aka JBD BMS. How much does the suggestion / option of going the supercell route apply to my setup?

using supercells does not matter to the bms - it just sees a cell. So it you made a 2p supercell - that’s just like buying a 200ah cell instead of a 100ah cell. It’s one way to cut down on the bms costs.

You can make supercells with an Overkill battery. I wanted a 50ah portable 12v battery the cells that fit the box I wanted to use were 25ah fortune cells. I got eight of them put two cells into a supercell (super mini cell?) then 4 in series so 2p4s - attached the Overkill 12v bms and finished it. It works great!

The items you lose with supercells is the bms still balances with the same voltage- so it can take 2x as long. Also you are monitoring the average of the two cells - but they should be exactly the same. If one cell dies it can pull down the partner’s voltage- so the bms will notice there is a problem- but you will not know which cell until you test it.
 
So what does it run off now? A separate battery at the bow?
I'd have to check, but I believe it's now setup to be connected to the LFP bank. Either that or to the starter battery. Definitely no separate battery though (there is none).
using supercells does not matter to the bms - it just sees a cell. So it you made a 2p supercell - that’s just like buying a 200ah cell instead of a 100ah cell. It’s one way to cut down on the bms costs.
Makes sense indeed, although if I understand correctly, this will eliminate the option of monitoring every individual cell, right? How much of a disadvantage should that be considered?

You can make supercells with an Overkill battery. I wanted a 50ah portable 12v battery the cells that fit the box I wanted to use were 25ah fortune cells. I got eight of them put two cells into a supercell (super mini cell?) then 4 in series so 2p4s - attached the Overkill 12v bms and finished it. It works great!
Just to clarify - I don't have Overkill batteries, I have Fortune cells. Only the BMS is JBD (aka Overkill).

The items you lose with supercells is the bms still balances with the same voltage- so it can take 2x as long. Also you are monitoring the average of the two cells - but they should be exactly the same. If one cell dies it can pull down the partner’s voltage- so the bms will notice there is a problem- but you will not know which cell until you test it.
Right, this answers / confirms my first question. I'll have to think about what route I'll be taking. Tradeoff vs Tradeoff ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Meanwhile I can confirm that my (stock?) Mitsubishi alternators are indeed 115A each. Am I right to assume that those should be big / powerful enough to charge the LFP bank without adding too many complex safety measures? Currently, the engines have two alternators attached to them. One for the starter battery and one for the previous AGM service batteries. I'm considering ditching the one and just the keep the 115A ones, connect those to the starter batteries and then connect those to the MultiPlus. What do you think?
 
Just to clarify - I don't have Overkill batteries, I have Fortune cells. Only the BMS is JBD (aka Overkill).
I think what @Rocketman is referring to is a battery monitored by an Overkill BMS.
Meanwhile I can confirm that my (stock?) Mitsubishi alternators are indeed 115A each. Am I right to assume that those should be big / powerful enough to charge the LFP bank without adding too many complex safety measures? Currently, the engines have two alternators attached to them. One for the starter battery and one for the previous AGM service batteries. I'm considering ditching the one and just the keep the 115A ones, connect those to the starter batteries and then connect those to the MultiPlus. What do you think?
I'm pretty confused by this. You are talking about charging the LFP bank from the alternator, but you are talking about hooking the alternators to the starter battery. So is the alternator going to charge the starter battery, or the house battery? Also, you don't want your starter batteries connected to the Multiplus, unless you are doing something completely different than I can picture.

As for "complex safety measures" the main thing you need to be aware of is that directly charging LFP from an alternator presents some serious risks:
  1. If the BMS does an over-voltage disconnect while the alternator is charging, the alternator will suddenly have no load, which can cause it to burn out in a matter of seconds.
  2. A stock alternator may have a good voltage for AGMs, but not so much for LFP. What harm this may cause depends on how much different it is from what the LFP needs.
The answer to these problems is a good regulator attached to your alternator. There are several out there. My limited experience is with a Balmar regulator, and the Wakespeed WS500 regulator. As far as I know the Balmar doesn't speak LFP (and it is a real pain to program), but the Wakespeed WS500 is pretty awesome. It can manage a charge profile for your batteries, just like your SCCs and your Multiplus.
 
My idea was that the alternators charge the starter batteries, and when those are full, the charge continues to the house bank, which would also make the starter batteries work as a buffer to soften the sudden BMS cut-off.

As an alternative, instead of buying 2 Wakespeeds, I would probably go for the well respected Nordkyn VRC-200, because on its product page, it says:

"For the owners of Volvo Penta D-Series engines, it is a highly effective plug-in upgrade for improving the charging characteristics of the excellent stock 14V/115A Mitsubishi A003TR0091ZT and A003TR0093ZT alternators."

The one in bold is the exact model we have...
 
My idea was that the alternators charge the starter batteries, and when those are full, the charge continues to the house bank, which would also make the starter batteries work as a buffer to soften the sudden BMS cut-off.

As an alternative, instead of buying 2 Wakespeeds, I would probably go for the well respected Nordkyn VRC-200, because on its product page, it says:

"For the owners of Volvo Penta D-Series engines, it is a highly effective plug-in upgrade for improving the charging characteristics of the excellent stock 14V/115A Mitsubishi A003TR0091ZT and A003TR0093ZT alternators."

The one in bold is the exact model we have...
If you want to charge the LFP from AGM start batteries, add a good Victron DC-to-DC charger to your list, rather than just hooking the two together.

I don't know anything about the VRC-200, but skimming the product page they have a bolded statement that it is not a replacement for the regulator, but rather works with the existing regulator from Balmar or Mastervolt or whatever. I don't know exactly what that means, but you should make sure before you commit. Maybe someone here has used the VRC-200 with LFP.
 
If you want to charge the LFP from AGM start batteries, add a good Victron DC-to-DC charger to your list, rather than just hooking the two together.
Yes I forgot to mention that rather important little detail, lol.

I don't know anything about the VRC-200, but skimming the product page they have a bolded statement that it is not a replacement for the regulator, but rather works with the existing regulator from Balmar or Mastervolt or whatever. I don't know exactly what that means, but you should make sure before you commit. Maybe someone here has used the VRC-200 with LFP.
Yeah it's a bit vague, but I'm reading nothing but good feedback from users on it. From what I understand, it's initially designed for alternators with built-in regulators, which our alternators do have (although they only regulate down to 14V). Anyway, will contact them for further clarification. Thanks!
 
If you are only hooking the alternator to your AGM start battery, you may not need the addition of the VRC-200, as the existing regulator may already be fine for AGM. I was mentioning the Wakespeed because I figured you would want to use the 100+ Amps available to charge your house battery.
 
I don't know what I want because I don't know what I'm talking about ?

But the way I see it. My 2 most viable / practical options are:
  1. Only keep the 115A alternators and remove the other ones, then hook those up to the charger batteries -> DC-DC converter -> MultiPlus
  2. Keep both alternators, one connected to the starter batteries and one (the 115A ones) connected to the VRC-200s -> MultiPlus
Makes sense?
 
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