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Terminal Blocks and Class 6 (Extra Fine Stranded) Conductors

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silverstone

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I usually use WAGO and Phoenix Contact Terminal Blocks.

I must say however that it's a bit opaque on their product catalogs and online product viewers, since it mostly says that those terminal blocks accept:
- Solid Conductors (Class 1)
- Stranded Conductors (Class 2)
- Fine-Stranded Conductors - With and/or Without Ferrules (Class 5)

Nothing is however said about Extra Fine-Stranded Conductors (Class 6). The WAGO Terminal Blocks come with a Pictogram that is very cryptic (3 wire types you can connect and 1 that you cannot, but not sure which is which).

Specifically I am looking at:
- WAGO 2016-1301
- WAGO 285-135
- WAGO 285-150

1710434368280.png
1710434383183.png

I am wondering about this, because the JK BMS B2A24S20P comes with what I believe are AWG7 Class 6 (Extra Fine Stranded) Tinned Copper Conductors.
 
Daddy Tanuki said:
dude, want to help but lost, got a link to the terminal blocks?
Click to expand...
Do you mean where to buy them or for datasheet etc ?

Manufacturer WAGO:
- WAGO 2016-1301: https://www.wago.com/global/rail-mo...-conductor-through-terminal-block/p/2016-1301
- WAGO 285-135: https://www.wago.com/global/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/2-conductor-through-terminal-block/p/285-135
- WAGO 285-150: https://www.wago.com/global/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/2-conductor-through-terminal-block/p/285-150

Retailer in Germany:
- WAGO 2016-1301: https://www.elektromax24.de/Wago-3-Leiter-Durchgangsklemme-2016-1301-TOPJOB-S-grau-16qmm
- WAGO 285-135: https://www.elektromax24.de/wago-2-leiter-durchgangsklemme-285-135-35qmm-grau
- WAGO 285-150: https://www.elektromax24.de/wago-2-leiter-durchgangsklemme-285-150-50qmm-grau

Just found recently this ferrule. 10mm2 and 32mm long. A bit on the expensive side and I'm always a bit skeptical with spring terminal and ferrules ... Whether they make things better or worse, especially if the spring/cage clamp doesn't have as much force as a screw terminal.

Phoenix Contact A 10-32
www.elektromax24.de

500 St. Phoenix Aderendhülse A 10 -32

Aderendhülse, Länge: 32 mm, Farbe: silberfarben
www.elektromax24.de www.elektromax24.de
 
ok not what I was thinking. is this low amperage? I was looking for other types of connectors for my SCC outputs and these even with ferules would not handle 50+ amps.
 
Daddy Tanuki said:
ok not what I was thinking. is this low amperage? I was looking for other types of connectors for my SCC outputs and these even with ferules would not handle 50+ amps.
Click to expand...
WAGO 285-150 can handle 150A.

Although, as a rule of thumb, I would NOT use any terminal block above say 66% of the rating :) .
 
You also have their bigger brothers:
- WAGO 285-195 up to 95mm2 and 232A: https://www.elektromax24.de/wago-2-leiter-durchgangsklemme-285-195-95qmm-grau
- WAGO 285-1185 up to 185 mm2 and 353A: https://www.elektromax24.de/Wago-2-Leiter-Durchgangsklemme-285-1185-grau-185qmm

I use the WAGO 285-1185 for some temporary cabling between my inverter main disconnector and some ad-hoc supply where I'm currently feed in/out of the battery (DC bus). 120mm2 and up to 250A (nowhere near that at the moment though) :) .

Be careful with your allen key though .... These have a lot of spring force and if you lose your allen key ... it's going to fly high !
 
By the way, @Daddy Tanuki , if you are interested you also get those from Phoenix Contact for instance, although the actuation mechanism is quite different and personally I trust more the WAGO one (it also depends on the accessibility, an allen key extension might be easier than to reach with a flat screwdriver at an angle etc) ...

Phoenix Contact is 10%-20% cheaper though :)

- https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-pc/products/high-current-terminal-block-ptpower-35-3212064
- https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-pc/products/high-current-terminal-block-ptpower-50-3260050
- https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-pc/products/high-current-terminal-block-ptpower-95-3260100
- https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-pc/products/high-current-terminal-block-ptpower-185-1054722
 
Why are you trying to use high flex cable - very fine stranded cable?
Unless you need to move it frequently, or its subject to high vibration you really don't need that.
High flex cable is expensive to make, and buy and generally used where it is necessary.

Nothing wrong with spring connectors. They are fast to terminate if you have a lot of them to do.
But its hard to beat screw driven "cage clamp" or even set screw type connectors on a ferrule for security with stranded wire.
Might be a lot cheaper as well.

For example:
 
Dave911 said:
Why are you trying to use high flex cable - very fine stranded cable?
Unless you need to move it frequently, or its subject to high vibration you really don't need that.
High flex cable is expensive to make, and buy and generally used where it is necessary.

Nothing wrong with spring connectors. They are fast to terminate if you have a lot of them to do.
But its hard to beat screw driven "cage clamp" or even set screw type connectors on a ferrule for security with stranded wire.
Might be a lot cheaper as well.

For example:
Click to expand...
I am not trying to use high flex cables. They come WITH the JK BMS (old version, not the JK "Inverter" BMS) ...
1710695742464.png

I'd swap them out if I could, but I don't really want to disassemble the BMS to do that.
 
I get it.
Ferrules aren't that expensive.


The pro grade tools are pricy if you only need to do a few. But I see they have some cheaper ones on Amazon. If you go with a highly rated one and you read the reviews to make sure its decent, you should be ok.

Ferrules do a great job of compressing all of the strands into a neat package that you can put into a terminal strip.
Once you use them you will wonder why they aren't more common in the US.

Have you considered using Stakon type crimp connectors? If you crimp on ring terminals you could land them on a bolted connection on a bus bar or? They make insulated terminal blocks with studs. Then there is no need for fancier ($$) terminal blocks.
Make sure you use a good crimper. But you can pickup ring terminals at many locations. You pretty much get what you pay for though.
Although I was able to buy some very nice copper ring terminals for #1 copper wire on Amazon for a lot less than what was available at Menards, etc. They weren't cheap by any means, but some of the good terminals at Menards etc are very expensive. But you can buy them 2 at a time, etc.
 
Dave911 said:
I get it.
Ferrules aren't that expensive.


The pro grade tools are pricy if you only need to do a few. But I see they have some cheaper ones on Amazon. If you go with a highly rated one and you read the reviews to make sure its decent, you should be ok.
Click to expand...
The ferrule I would need for the WAGO 285-150 (or WAGO 285-135) needs to be approx. 30mm long (pin length !) which is quite uncommon. The Phoenix Contact I listed is one of the few I could find.

Although ferrules aren't really needed with those specific terminal blocks, reason for having ferrules would be the VERY fine (class 6) strands of the JK BMS wires. I am just concerned that the pressure of the spring / cage clamp will chop them off ...


Dave911 said:
Ferrules do a great job of compressing all of the strands into a neat package that you can put into a terminal strip.
Once you use them you will wonder why they aren't more common in the US.
Click to expand...
Probably because in the US everything needs to be validated and UL approved. A specific ferrule used with a specific crimping tool and a specific terminal with a specific operating tool etc. That's what I quickly read at least.

That's not to say that in Europe / IEC it's a jungle. Every manufacturer recommends their own tool for crimping ferrule (or cable lug etc), as that is what they use in their validation process. However, from what I understand (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), it's not enforced / needed to follow the complete chain during the serial production process. So an OEM might use the crimping tool from a given company which is NOT the one that the ferrule / cable lug company used to validate their design, process, etc.

Dave911 said:
Have you considered using Stakon type crimp connectors? If you crimp on ring terminals you could land them on a bolted connection on a bus bar or? They make insulated terminal blocks with studs. Then there is no need for fancier ($$) terminal blocks.
Make sure you use a good crimper. But you can pickup ring terminals at many locations. You pretty much get what you pay for though.
Although I was able to buy some very nice copper ring terminals for #1 copper wire on Amazon for a lot less than what was available at Menards, etc. They weren't cheap by any means, but some of the good terminals at Menards etc are very expensive. But you can buy them 2 at a time, etc.
Click to expand...
The whole point is to avoid crimping. It's an absolute pain. Especially when wires are short, cable lugs are not the proper size (as said AWG 7 is rare, I tried 10mm2 cable lug, but no way, I had to use 16 mm2 cable lug which I had to crimp a LOT with the 10mm2 die set). Plus the busbars that are unaccessible, impossible to hold the back nut with the second wrench, etc.

I get it, busbar are (much) cheaper. But the TIME and DIFFICULTY in some tight spaces it's just something I don't want to deal with. Heck if I ever have to do maintenance on my Battery v1 I might as well transplant the cells into another box. The DC- BMS Busbar is totally inaccessible and holding the nut behind it will most likely be impossible. I had to assemble everything on the busbar first, then mount the busbar on a pair of insulators.

And threads in copper busbars are not really recommended (copper is quite soft, drilling/tapping properly is a bit hit or miss, if you overtorque your connection will get loose over time, ...).
 
Ive been working with electrical circuits for 40+ years. Ive never seen a ferrule as long as you describe on similar sized wire. I could take a picture Monday of an electrical box that has about 6 gauge ferruled connections into spring terminals.

99 percent of the panels I work in are not UL approved. Many of the components are but not all. European standards are much more strict than US standards. Of course if no one is enforcing standards, it's all moot anyway. I think Chicago is the only place UL is required for everything. But UL is based in Chicago. Chicago is a crazy place standards wise.

Crimping on ferrules or Sta kon connectors is no big deal. You just need the tools and parts. I dont know your exact situation space wise. If the terminal maker doesnt specify your stranding to be acceptable, you need to find another solution.
If you think it might work, call them and talk to tech support. Most companies have decent tech support in the industrial world.
 
Dave911 said:
Ive been working with electrical circuits for 40+ years. Ive never seen a ferrule as long as you describe on similar sized wire. I could take a picture Monday of an electrical box that has about 6 gauge ferruled connections into spring terminals.

99 percent of the panels I work in are not UL approved. Many of the components are but not all. European standards are much more strict than US standards. Of course if no one is enforcing standards, it's all moot anyway. I think Chicago is the only place UL is required for everything. But UL is based in Chicago. Chicago is a crazy place standards wise.

Crimping on ferrules or Sta kon connectors is no big deal. You just need the tools and parts. I dont know your exact situation space wise. If the terminal maker doesnt specify your stranding to be acceptable, you need to find another solution.
If you think it might work, call them and talk to tech support. Most companies have decent tech support in the industrial world.
Click to expand...
Here in Europe as a Private Customer if you call the Manufacturer they will just ignore you or tell you "Talk to the Retailer".

And the Retailer has zero clue about what they are selling, so you end up never getting any reply.

Sure, I got the Ferrule Crimper (multiple actually - still think that square crimps are best because I got quite a few loose HEX crimps), as well as the Cable Lug Hydraulic Crimper up to 240 mm2. I just think that in some places cable lugs are really complicated to work with. You can argue that's personal preference.

I'm also used to Industrial Panels / Converters at work. But there the wire gauge and cable lugs are slighly bigger ... up to 300mm2 and M12 Cable Lugs. A bit unwieldy :) . And there is more free space than in my garage ...
 
I didnt realize you were in Europe. If you have a specific question about one of those terminals, let me know your exact question regarding part number, cable stranding etc and I will get it to an industrial distributor here in the US who should be able to get it answered in a couple of days. They are very responsive to my requests for business reasons.
 
silverstone said:
I usually use WAGO and Phoenix Contact Terminal Blocks.

I must say however that it's a bit opaque on their product catalogs and online product viewers, since it mostly says that those terminal blocks accept:
- Solid Conductors (Class 1)
- Stranded Conductors (Class 2)
- Fine-Stranded Conductors - With and/or Without Ferrules (Class 5)

Nothing is however said about Extra Fine-Stranded Conductors (Class 6). The WAGO Terminal Blocks come with a Pictogram that is very cryptic (3 wire types you can connect and 1 that you cannot, but not sure which is which).

Specifically I am looking at:
- WAGO 2016-1301
- WAGO 285-135
- WAGO 285-150

View attachment 202061
View attachment 202062

I am wondering about this, because the JK BMS B2A24S20P comes with what I believe are AWG7 Class 6 (Extra Fine Stranded) Tinned Copper Conductors.
Click to expand...
The "cryptic-do not connect" may have been referring to a twisted end. It is very important to not twist the ends of the wire when using cage style clamps. The clamping surfaces are not sharp so there is little risk of cutting very fine wire. The ferrule is not necessary, it only insures the strands stay together until the connection is made. You can visually check for that condition by looking down the hole you just put the wire in.
 
Last edited:
NIFE said:
The "cryptic-do not connect" may have been referring to a twisted end. It is very important to not twist the ends of the wire when using cage style clamps. The clamping surfaces are not sharp so there is little risk of cutting very fine wire. The ferrule is not necessary, it only insures the strands stay together until the connection is made. You can visually check for that condition by looking down the hole you just put the wire in.
Click to expand...
That's also why I (sometimes) twist the wires... Otherwise if you are not dead center of the hole, the strands will go in all directions when hitting the terminal block.

Why is it very bad to twist the wire ends? Some people say also that when putting ferrule or cable lug in. But why is that?

I get it, especially at high current levels (> 100 A ?), it's bad to twist the wire with your greasy/oily hands, because it increases contact resistance ... I was guilty of this the first times I did it :confused: ... But why the twist "per se" ?

And about the greasy/oily hands and bad contact ... I'm not so sure how it really is a problem in real life. At work we require cleaning of all busbars before assembly, since it does make a difference, but particularly above 1000 A. And with greasy hands ... isn't that the same principle as when putting dielectric grease between 2 conductors in order to prevent corrosion ? It is said that the tightening torque will spread the grease away and the electrical contact is better than without (although I doubt that a few traces of oil from my hands would work in the same way) ...
 
Last edited:
Dave911 said:
I didnt realize you were in Europe. If you have a specific question about one of those terminals, let me know your exact question regarding part number, cable stranding etc and I will get it to an industrial distributor here in the US who should be able to get it answered in a couple of days. They are very responsive to my requests for business reasons.
Click to expand...
The specific question, as stated in the original post, would be for WAGO 285-150 and class 6 conductors. Can they accept these class of wires, and do they need a ferrule?

Thanks for your help 👍.
 
NIFE said:
The "cryptic-do not connect" may have been referring to a twisted end. It is very important to not twist the ends of the wire when using cage style clamps. The clamping surfaces are not sharp so there is little risk of cutting very fine wire. The ferrule is not necessary, it only insures the strands stay together until the connection is made. You can visually check for that condition by looking down the hole you just put the wire in.
Click to expand...
The cryptic pictogram is this (WAGO 2016-1301 and other I believe)
1710740972457.png

What I can imagine decrypting, from top to bottom:
Figure A:
- Use the screwdriver-like tool to get the wire OUT

Figure B:
- Fine Stranded Wires without Ferrule / Class 5 Wires without Ferrule CANNOT be directly inserted without tool
- Stranded Wires / Class 2 Wires CANNOT be directly inserted without tool
- Solid Wires / Class 1 Wires (???) can be directly inserted without tool
- Fine Stranded Wires with Ferrule / Class 5 Wires with Ferrule can be directly inserted without tool

Figure C:
- Stranded Wires / Class 2 Wires CANNOT be inserted even with a tool
- Solid Wires / Class 1 Wires (???) can be inserted with a tool
- Fine Stranded Wires with Ferrule / Class 5 Wires with Ferrule can be inserted with a tool
- Fine Stranded Wires without Ferrule / Class 5 Wires without Ferrule can be inserted with a tool

Is it correct my understanding that they are referring to stranded / Class 2 wires here ?
1710741237595.png

I guess this is consistent to what is listed on the product page, where solid and fine-stranded wires (the latter with and without ferrules) are listed, while the stranded (Class 2) wire is NOT listed:
1710741348515.png
 
silverstone said:
The specific question, as stated in the original post, would be for WAGO 285-150 and class 6 conductors. Can they accept these class of wires, and do they need a ferrule?

Thanks for your help 👍.
Click to expand...
The 285-150 is a much different design. It requires an operating tool to insert and remove the wire. No ferrule is needed. The reason you should not twist the wires is the number of strands that contact the clamping point will be less resulting in more heat being generated at the contact point. If you remove the wire, you will notice the strands are flared out like an artist's paint brush. It won't do this well if you twist them too tightly.
 
silverstone said:
The cryptic pictogram is this (WAGO 2016-1301 and other I believe)
View attachment 202767

What I can imagine decrypting, from top to bottom:
Figure A:
- Use the screwdriver-like tool to get the wire OUT

Figure B:
- Fine Stranded Wires without Ferrule / Class 5 Wires without Ferrule CANNOT be directly inserted without tool
- Stranded Wires / Class 2 Wires CANNOT be directly inserted without tool
- Solid Wires / Class 1 Wires (???) can be directly inserted without tool
- Fine Stranded Wires with Ferrule / Class 5 Wires with Ferrule can be directly inserted without tool

Figure C:
- Stranded Wires / Class 2 Wires CANNOT be inserted even with a tool
- Solid Wires / Class 1 Wires (???) can be inserted with a tool
- Fine Stranded Wires with Ferrule / Class 5 Wires with Ferrule can be inserted with a tool
- Fine Stranded Wires without Ferrule / Class 5 Wires without Ferrule can be inserted with a tool

Is it correct my understanding that they are referring to stranded / Class 2 wires here ?
View attachment 202768

I guess this is consistent to what is listed on the product page, where solid and fine-stranded wires (the latter with and without ferrules) are listed, while the stranded (Class 2) wire is NOT listed:
View attachment 202769
Click to expand...
I wonder if they don't list fine stranded bare because where the wire goes in is so recessed you could have some wires bending back "out"? Even though they wouldn't necessarily be exposed. Seems like adding ferrules is the simple solution.
 
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