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Terminal Blocks and Class 6 (Extra Fine Stranded) Conductors

NIFE said:
The 285-150 is a much different design. It requires an operating tool to insert and remove the wire. No ferrule is needed. The reason you should not twist the wires is the number of strands that contact the clamping point will be less resulting in more heat being generated at the contact point. If you remove the wire, you will notice the strands are flared out like an artist's paint brush. It won't do this well if you twist them too tightly.
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I hope I don't have to rework all that I've done until now since I twisted them somewhat :confused: . Especially when you're at the maximum conductor cross-section for that terminal block, it's a bit tricky to get all the strands in if you are not perfectly aligned. Hit the "wall" of the entrance and you got to pull out, straighten all of the strands out, and try again.

But you think the WAGO 285-150 won't crush the Class 6 conductor ? I mean these JK BMS Class 6 strands are like 10-20 times SMALLER than a human hair ...

I can follow you with e.g. 50mm2 Class 5 ... those are still relatively big individual strands and should surive mechanically.
 
@NIFE i guess the main issue is if it's twisted and the "last strand" is doing an extra turn over everything. So basically instead of a flat surface contact it becomes more like a "point contact" just using this last strand.

And while the WAGO 285-150 has quite a bit of force required to open it, I can see that if it's only a point contact instead of a full surface contact it could be a problem. Even though copper is a good thermal conductor, I don't think it makes up for that...

But for a 50mm2 wire used at 100A maximum when the terminal block is rated 150A... How much of a problem do you think it is? If I have to disassemble that battery I'm going to fix it but otherwise it's more of a "don't touch it if it works" situation.
 
I wonder how this compares to those spring terminals Victron uses in the Multiplus units.

I noted there are multiple stickers that seem after the fact stating ferules are needed to be used, yet doesn’t say anything about fine strand or solid conductor unlike the SCC units.
 
740GLE said:
I wonder how this compares to those spring terminals Victron uses in the Multiplus units.

I noted there are multiple stickers that seem after the fact stating ferules are needed to be used, yet doesn’t say anything about fine strand or solid conductor unlike the SCC units.
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Apples to purple bananas I'd say ...

Are you talking about these ? https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/136624/multiplus-ll-burnt-terminal-block.html

Basically from https://www.wago.com/global/electrical-interconnections/connection-technology or https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-pc/technologies/connection-technologies you can see the differences.


- WAGO "small" terminal block (I'm not too fond of these without ferrules, as you can see the bottom part of the strands are sitting on a very narrow edge, which might be somewhat sharp and "cut" them - ferrule would provide some protection against that)
1710774782104.png
- Similarly with Phoenix Contact Spring Connection Terminal Block - Basically same as WAGO cage clamp ...
1710774918585.png

- Phoenix Contact Push-In Terminal Block - This I like somewhat better, it doesn't give me this feeling of sharp blade pulling/pushing the wire strands. Less vibration resistant though (still OK if you are not on a train or something like that I guess) ...
1710775018793.png

- WAGO "Power Cage Clamp" (WAGO 285-xxx) - These I like much better, flat plate pushed against flat plate basically
1710774751878.png
 
I personally distrust "push" in connections, in general. I'll use them for low current stuff but nothing high current. I've seen enough UL listed outlets and switches using the push-in connections on the back be charred from contact failure under normal usage over time. Most recent was in our house, I changed out the switch for our disposal and the switch was burnt and came apart when I loosened it from the box (it still worked but for how much longer?). The house was built 20 years prior.

I stick with stuff I can clamp down (screw terminals, lugs, etc).
 
silverstone said:
Apples to purple bananas I'd say ...

Are you talking about these ? https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/136624/multiplus-ll-burnt-terminal-block.html

- WAGO "small" terminal block (I'm not too fond of these without ferrules, as you can see the bottom part of the strands are sitting on a very narrow edge, which might be somewhat sharp and "cut" them - ferrule would provide some protection against that)
View attachment 202817
- Similarly with Phoenix Contact Spring Connection Terminal Block - Basically same as WAGO cage clamp ...
View attachment 202819

- Phoenix Contact Push-In Terminal Block - This I like somewhat better, it doesn't give me this feeling of sharp blade pulling/pushing the wire strands. Less vibration resistant though (still OK if you are not on a train or something like that I guess) ...
View attachment 202820

- WAGO "Power Cage Clamp" (WAGO 285-xxx) - These I like much better, flat plate pushed against flat plate basically
View attachment 202816
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I just see it as a spring connection vs another spring connection. I guess one rule of thumb can’t be applied to them all.
 
SparkyJJO said:
I personally distrust "push" in connections, in general. I'll use them for low current stuff but nothing high current. I've seen enough UL listed outlets and switches using the push-in connections on the back be charred from contact failure under normal usage over time. Most recent was in our house, I changed out the switch for our disposal and the switch was burnt and came apart when I loosened it from the box (it still worked but for how much longer?). The house was built 20 years prior.

I stick with stuff I can clamp down (screw terminals, lugs, etc).
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I'd say that a spring / cage clamp up to ~ 60% of its stated rating should be fine ...

The problem might be related to the Switch or Outlet "Rating"

About Outlets and Switches ... Not sure how it is in the US, but here in Europe we typically have Switches and Outlets "Rated" typically 10A-16A.
The "Rated" Value is typically for only one hour or few hours.

This is for Denmark for instance ...
1710775723673.png

So for long-term use basically up to 50% reduction (13A "Rated" Socket should not be used long-term above 7A).

That's why, for long-term appliances (100% duty + possible overload) you should use a CEE Rated Plug
1710775804100.png

Not necessarily a Spring / Cage Clamp only issue.
More like Manufacturers "Cheating" or "Twisting" the Rules of what a "Rating" is.
 
740GLE said:
I just see it as a spring connection vs another spring connection. I guess one rule of thumb can’t be applied to them all.
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To be fair I always check the manufacturer instructions. Sometimes you MUST use ferrule. Sometimes you MUST NOT use ferrule. Depends on the terminal (and/or how they did their validation).

Note that there are different subtypes of spring connection (as outlined above). I'm personally more concerned of the clamp damaging the individual strands, hence the reason to use a ferrule. But it must be properly crimped ...
 
Dave911 said:
I think this likely answers the question.

POWER CAGE CLAMP feedthrough terminal block (285-150) | WAGO USA

POWER CAGE CLAMP feedthrough terminal block; DIN 35 x 15 rail mount; 2-conductor; 2/0 AWG fine-stranded, 1/0 AWG solid/stranded; 20 mm wide; gray (4045454507411) Online at WAGO USA!
www.wago.com www.wago.com

Look at "Conductor termination". Thats very finely stranded cable without a ferrule.
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Where exactly do you see VERY fine stranded? I see fine stranded (class 5), NOT very fine stranded (class 6)

EDIT: from the picture it looks very fine stranded indeed ... But in the "Connection Data" Section it only lists "fine stranded" (class 5)
 
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silverstone said:
Where exactly do you see VERY fine stranded? I see fine stranded (class 5), NOT very fine stranded (class 6)

EDIT: from the picture it looks very fine stranded indeed ... But in the "Connection Data" Section it only lists "fine stranded" (class 5)
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Seeing that they used very fine wire as an example indicates to me that you should have no issue using that same wire in that terminal block.
I can't imagine you would have an issue with that terminal block. Look how much area you have in contact with the strands. That is very good! But for $22.00 US dollars per terminal it should be "really good". If you are still concerned, run max current through that connection and use an IR temp gun to check on the temperature of the terminal.
But honestly, IMO, that terminal block is an overkill. I would have crimped on ring terminals and used quality stud terminals. That would be cheaper and as long as it stays cool, you are set.
 
Dave911 said:
Seeing that they used very fine wire as an example indicates to me that you should have no issue using that same wire in that terminal block.
I can't imagine you would have an issue with that terminal block. Look how much area you have in contact with the strands. That is very good! But for $22.00 US dollars per terminal it should be "really good". If you are still concerned, run max current through that connection and use an IR temp gun to check on the temperature of the terminal.
But honestly, IMO, that terminal block is an overkill. I would have crimped on ring terminals and used quality stud terminals. That would be cheaper and as long as it stays cool, you are set.
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Alright (y) .

Yeah, as I said, I wasn't too keen on crimping, both for simplicity, time and reliability (especially those JK BMS leads) though.
 
Dave911 said:
I sent a note to the distributor. They handle Wago. I'll see what they say.
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Many thanks (y) . I just hope they know what class 6 conductors / very fine stranded conductors are. I guess this is more a IEC thing than UL, although I guess UL should have something similar.
 
silverstone said:
Alright (y) .

Yeah, as I said, I wasn't too keen on crimping, both for simplicity, time and reliability (especially those JK BMS leads) though.
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Don't you have to crimp the ring terminals on the cell end of the sense wires? With the other ends being on the harness plugs?
 
Brucey said:
Don't you have to crimp the ring terminals on the cell end of the sense wires? With the other ends being on the harness plugs?
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Yeah true but you know... 2A instead of 100A...
And crimping those long leads (I actually use an extension via fused Termin blocks) Is quite easier compared to a Hydraulic crimper 😉.
 
silverstone said:
Many thanks (y) . I just hope they know what class 6 conductors / very fine stranded conductors are. I guess this is more a IEC thing than UL, although I guess UL should have something similar.
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IEC standards are commonly discussed in the US since a lot of equipment is imported to the US from Europe. And a lot of OEMs here ship to Europe as well. Parts of the system I'm working on right now are German. Other parts of it were made in the US.
 
Dave911 said:
IEC standards are commonly discussed in the US since a lot of equipment is imported to the US from Europe. And a lot of OEMs here ship to Europe as well. Parts of the system I'm working on right now are German. Other parts of it were made in the US.
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I also wish sometimes these standards were more aligned.

For many products (like these terminal blocks) they are qualified for both set of standards. Sine item sold worldwide makes the logistics easy.

Other products E. G. MCCB are typically sold in "iec" and "ul" variant (e. G. ABB products, I guess other manufacturers do the same).
 
silverstone said:
I also wish sometimes these standards were more aligned.

For many products (like these terminal blocks) they are qualified for both set of standards. Sine item sold worldwide makes the logistics easy.

Other products E. G. MCCB are typically sold in "iec" and "ul" variant (e. G. ABB products, I guess other manufacturers do the same).
Click to expand...

I agree! I just heard back from the distributor and they said they can't find anything either way. They found the "fine strand" info as well.

They recommended I call Wago directly and they gave me a contact number.

Have you tried calling Wago directly?

I found this as well. Interesting and I think you're set.

 
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