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Wiring diagram

Boomerang Mike

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Jul 29, 2020
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7
I am looking for a wiring schematic showing cable gauges for the following set up....

100Ah 12v LiFePO4 Battery (Hitch mounted on my TT).
2200W Pure Sine Wave Inverter (Mounted inside TT as close to Battery as possible to keep voltage drop < 0.25v?).
ANL Fuse 250A? Connect to the Battery +ve terminal?
Battery isolation switch (Which side should this be installed?)
Battery Monitor w/DC Shunt.
2/0 cables to connect inverter to battery (again to keep voltage drop to min).

What is recommended method of grounding the inverter? To -ve battery post or TT chassis?
Max load at any time will be either 1000W microwave or wife's 1100W hair dryer.
I know that the Shunt must be the only component connected to the -ve Battery terminal.

Battery is charged from 200W Renogy Suitcase with built in Voyager 20A Solar Charge Controller (Set to LiFePO4 mode) when boondocking.
When connected to shore power or generator, I will turn off the inverter since it will not be needed & is essentially a stand alone system.

Let me know if I have left out any info/specs. Appreciate help from anyone who is familiar with this basic set up.
 
I am looking for a wiring schematic showing cable gauges for the following set up....

100Ah 12v LiFePO4 Battery (Hitch mounted on my TT).
(1)2200W Pure Sine Wave Inverter (Mounted inside TT as close to Battery as possible to keep voltage drop < 0.25v?).
(2)ANL Fuse 250A? Connect to the Battery +ve terminal?
(3)Battery isolation switch (Which side should this be installed?)
(4)Battery Monitor w/DC Shunt.
(5)2/0 cables to connect inverter to battery (again to keep voltage drop to min).

(6)What is recommended method of grounding the inverter? To -ve battery post or TT chassis?
(7)Max load at any time will be either 1000W microwave or wife's 1100W hair dryer.
I know that the Shunt must be the only component connected to the -ve Battery terminal.

(8)Battery is charged from 200W Renogy Suitcase with built in Voyager 20A Solar Charge Controller (Set to LiFePO4 mode) when boondocking.
When connected to shore power or generator, I will turn off the inverter since it will not be needed & is essentially a stand alone system.

Let me know if I have left out any info/specs. Appreciate help from anyone who is familiar with this basic set up.

(1) code is 5%, so .25V is good.
(2) Yes
(3) (+)
(4) good
(5) nice.
(6) I don't. Might be a bad idea, but I hate the idea of the AC and DC grounds in common (even though they likely end up that way anyway).
(7) If your microwave is rated for 1000W, the actual consumption is closer to 1500-1600W. If your inverter is a good one, it should be fine. The surge of a microwave is massive but only for a half cycle.
(8) With optimal facing and tilt, you'll be get rated output for about 5 hours assuming a sunny area, so you have an upper limit of about 1kWh.

Handy references:

https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/ (wiring and concepts)

https://diysolarforum.com/resources/wiring-unlimited.2/ (everything wiring, compliments of Victron)

https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html (V drop without having to think about it much)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge (awg charts and currents)
 
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Unsafe ANL Fuse Failure from : marinehowto
21-LiFePO4-On-Boats.jpg

During the course of our testing & experimentation with LFP battery banks I blew approximately $400.00 worth of MRBF, ANL and Class-T fuses.

The only unsafe failures we had were off-brand el-cheapo car stereo type ANL fuses. As can be seen here the windows literally exploded out of the fuse when it tripped. I did not have a single unsafe failure of a Cooper Bussmann/Blue Sea Ignition Protected ANL fuse but I only blew about 10 of them. I suppose if you blew 100 you may have an unsafe failure on an LFP bank..

Still, I would strongly urge Class-T as the bare minimum for LFP bank main over-current protection.

NOTE: Class T fuses do not have an ignition protection rating. As near as I can tell, from speaking with Blue Sea Systems, as well as Cooper Bussmann, they have not been specifically tested for this. This only means that they’ve not been tested, not that they would necessarily be unsafe.

Remember an ANL IP rated fuse has an AIC of 6000A and a Class-T non IP fuse has a 20,000A interrupt rating.. If you have a gasoline powered vessel, which requires ignition protected devices, consider this when engineering the over current protection for your LFP system..
 
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For a 2200 watt sinewave inverter on 12v you will have about 2200/0.80 / 11.5v = 240 amps max. At 0.25v drop that is 60 watts of heating. That is some very warm wires. Don't know what 'close as possible' means but a distance of 6' for two 2/0 lines @ 240 amps would be 0.24v drop, 9.8 watts per pair foot, 58 watts of total heating. Ratio that based on your actual length.

Your biggest issue is going to be BMS switch voltage drop and heating. This is a good reason that more then 1200-1500 watts should be run on 24v.
 
(1) code is 5%, so .25V is good.
(2) Yes
(3) (+)
(4) good
(5) nice.
(6) I don't. Might be a bad idea, but I hate the idea of the AC and DC grounds in common (even though they likely end up that way anyway).
(7) If your microwave is rated for 1000W, the actual consumption is closer to 1500-1600W. If your inverter is a good one, it should be fine. The surge of a microwave is massive but only for a half cycle.
(8) With optimal facing and tilt, you'll be get rated output for about 5 hours assuming a sunny area, so you have an upper limit of about 1kWh.

Handy references:

https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/ (wiring and concepts)

https://diysolarforum.com/resources/wiring-unlimited.2/ (everything wiring, compliments of Victron)

https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html (V drop without having to think about it much)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge (awg charts and currents)
Thanks for your help & the references...I am learning with every reply.
A few Q's come to mind.
In #1 you reference a 5% code for calculating V.D..... 5% of what? Someone quoted a 0.06v threshold, but the widely accepted max is 0.25v as you have mentioned.
In #7 you mention microwave surge for a 1/2 cycle....can you elaborate on that & why actual consumption is 1.5 times higher than rated wattage?
The inverter was recommended by Will Prowse...Giandel PS-2200 KAR.
Total 2/0 cable run length (+ve & -ve) will be approx 5-6 ft.
Battery Isolation Switch & 250A ANL fuse on +ve leg & 500A shunt on -ve leg.
All hammer crimped/heat shrinked tinned copper lugs in a weather tight junction box. Need to mount J/box near hitch mounted battery to minimize cable length & provide access to fuse & isolation switch.
Does the brand/cost/type of Isolation Switch matter? If so, can you recommend one?
One reply calculated for a 2200w inverter on 12v will have approx 2200 / 0.80 / 11.v = 240 Amps Max. @ 0.25v drop = 60w of cable heating.
This looks to be assuming a Max continuous inverter load of 2200w.
If I kept heavy loads at approx 50% Max inverter rating (1100w) for very short time (2-5 mins of either microwave or hair dryer), will I avoid cable heating or BMS switch voltage drop issues? Does it help to shade any exposed cables (or cover for UV protection) & does it make sense to add passive ventilation to storage area where inverter is mounted (it has 2 built in fans if temp >104F or load > 880W).
DC loads (directly from battery) will be...LED lights, water pump,slide out, phone charging, hitch jack, ceiling fan, portable fridge/freezer (3.8A).
These will be operating intermittently & since I don't know Amp draw for most, I will just have to keep an eye on the Battery Monitor & adjust usage accordingly.
 
(1) Does the brand/cost/type of Isolation Switch matter? If so, can you recommend one?
(2) One reply calculated for a 2200w inverter on 12v will have approx 2200 / 0.80 / 11.v = 240 Amps Max. @ 0.25v drop = 60w of cable heating.
This looks to be assuming a Max continuous inverter load of 2200w.
(3) If I kept heavy loads at approx 50% Max inverter rating (1100w) for very short time (2-5 mins of either microwave or hair dryer), will I avoid cable heating or BMS switch voltage drop issues?
(4)Does it help to shade any exposed cables (or cover for UV protection) & does it make sense to add passive ventilation to storage area where inverter is mounted (it has 2 built in fans if temp >104F or load > 880W).
(5)DC loads (directly from battery) will be...LED lights, water pump,slide out, phone charging, hitch jack, ceiling fan, portable fridge/freezer (3.8A).
These will be operating intermittently & since I don't know Amp draw for most, I will just have to keep an eye on the Battery Monitor & adjust usage accordingly.

#7 Ratings are for OUTPUT. A 1/2hp pump gives 1/2hp of pumping power, but it consumes MUCH more than 1/2hp of electricity (1/2 hp is about 375W). My 3/4hp (560W) water pump would overload my 2kW inverter due to the massive surge associated with the initial start of the pump motor. When it was running (from a bigger inverter), it consumes about 900W. A microwave is similar inefficient.

The microwaves are generated by the magnetron. When the circuit closes to allow the electron juice to flow, there is almost no resistance. Once current starts flowing through the magnetron, the magnetic field resists the incoming current until it reaches steady state. There are massive losses converting input electricity to water molecule excitation in the heated substance. You can get a better idea looking at the specs on your microwave or on the electrical label. They will publish a current. That current multiplied by 120VAC gives you the MAX power consumed. Here's an example for a 900W microwave:


In specifications, electrical:

Amperpage 15
Voltage 120

15 * 120 = 1900W - this accounts for the initial surge (sorta, it's actually much higher, but it last for only 1/60th of a second, it's not an issue for grid power, but it can be for an inverter). Once this surge passes, it will settle on about 1500W.

If you're in the habit of using lower power settings on your microwave, get out of that habit. Standard microwaves only operate at 100% or 0%. If you operate at 50%, it's on 100% for 50% of the time, so you're getting a bunch of surges during your cook time due to the magnetron cycling on and off. Panasonic makes a full size INVERTER microwave you can find on Amazone for around $180 that actually does cook at 50% when you specify 50% (or whatever). They still are still very inefficient overall, but they are a little more efficient than a standard one, and a nice option for off-grid power. I've only seen them in full size models though.

(1) A lot of marine isolation switches can handle very high continuous amps. LOL... was looking for that brand name when Zil swooped in and posted. Yeah. That!
(2-3) Hmmm... I actually checked the awg chart instead of relying on my shite memory. 2/0 is a under spec. IMHO, if you've already bought the 2/0 for the inverter feed, and you have the space on the terminals, add a 2awg to it to get you in between 3/0 and 4/0 if you really anticipate operating near max for several minutes at a time. If not, the 2/0 can handle intermittent 240A.
(4) if sun is shining directly on a black cable, it can contribute to cable heating.
(5) A DC clamp ammeter is a little spendy, but if you want to know your DC loads, it's worth it.

LED lights are rated in Watts, so 4W uses 4/12 = 0.3A
Water pumps usually have an amp rating and are likely less than 100W.
Slide out is a decent size motor, but you're running it for 2-3 minutes? Probably not a concern. If you can see the dataplate on the motor, it should list amps. Online lookup of the brand/model too.
Phone charging is typically 10-15W for 2-3 hours for one 0-100% complete charge.
Hitch jack likely a small motor.
Ceiling fan - these are generally low power, BUT they are an off-grid nightmare. People don't turn these off when they leave a room, and it can really tap a lot of juice if left on all day. A FANtastic type of fan for ventilation uses about 40W on max speed.
Portable fridge/freezer (3.8A) - 50W, and it's one of the best options for efficient food storing if it meets your needs. An absorption (12V/120VAC/Propane) type of fridge is HORRIBLY inefficient on electricity - about 5-6X MORE energy use than a same-sized residential fridge.

You can estimate all the Wh of those devices and see what % of your battery capacity they will consume rather than just "watching" it. If I have to watch something, it usually does something I don't want it to do when I'm not looking.. :)
 
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Unsafe ANL Fuse Failure
21-LiFePO4-On-Boats.jpg


During the course of our testing & experimentation with LFP battery banks I blew approximately $400.00 worth of MRBF, ANL and Class-T fuses.

The only unsafe failures we had were off-brand el-cheapo car stereo type ANL fuses. As can be seen here the windows literally exploded out of the fuse when it tripped. I did not have a single unsafe failure of a Cooper Bussmann/Blue Sea Ignition Protected ANL fuse but I only blew about 10 of them. I suppose if you blew 100 you may have an unsafe failure on an LFP bank..

Still, I would strongly urge Class-T as the bare minimum for LFP bank main over-current protection.

NOTE: Class T fuses do not have an ignition protection rating. As near as I can tell, from speaking with Blue Sea Systems, as well as Cooper Bussmann, they have not been specifically tested for this. This only means that they’ve not been tested, not that they would necessarily be unsafe.

Remember an ANL IP rated fuse has an AIC of 6000A and a Class-T non IP fuse has a 20,000A interrupt rating.. If you have a gasoline powered vessel, which requires ignition protected devices, consider this when engineering the over current protection for your LFP system..
Are you the author of this Wikipedia post?

The source for this information should be cited. This is a copy/paste from https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/ with no clear reference to where the info came from.
 
Yes, if you need to stay at 12v, I would use 4/0 wire if you can truly get to > 200 amps to the inverter.
 
It does say marinehowto.com in the listed name. that is where it is from. a well known and respected source. well, it should be well known by anyone involved with dc current. I am sorry to offend you and will not do it again.
 
For the OP. my 1000W microwave uses 150 amps at 12 volts. It doesn't seem to have any or very little starting surge.
 
It does say marinehowto.com in the listed name. that is where it is from. a well known and respected source. well, it should be well known by anyone involved with dc current. I am sorry to offend you and will not do it again.

Don't be defensive because someone identifies a questionable practice. No one is offended. Your post does not clearly identify the source. No instance of "marine" occurs in your post, or at least my computer isn't able to find one with ctrl-F. When reading the post, I had the impression that it was your work. Granted, I only read the first half of it.

For the OP. my 1000W microwave uses 150 amps at 12 volts. It doesn't seem to have any or very little starting surge.

All microwaves have a massive surge, but you need an oscilloscope to measure it as it's typically limited to a single cycle of the AC sine wave. Typical consumer hardware can't detect it. In most cases, it isn't an issue, but it can take out a cheap inverter that seems like it should be able to handle it, spec-wise.
 
It does say marinehowto.com in the listed name. that is where it is from. a well known and respected source. well, it should be well known by anyone involved with dc current. I am sorry to offend you and will not do it again.
Using info from other sources is fine, But, the sources need to be cited. I edited your post to show where the info is from.
 
The dc fuse on my inverter is sized to protect the wire. I use 250 amp. Ratings on Type-T fuse will allow 600 amps for 50 seconds. The microwave will draw that only when it is failed microwave and then it is new microwave. Fuses protect wire. Size fuses to the ampacity of the wire. The start-up surges will take care of them selves. Not talking about a large load like a stalled wrench.
 
Seems from my research that AC inverter ground can be connected to trailer chassis with #8 gauge wire (or smaller).
Not sure if/how DC inverter ground should be done. I have seen wiring diagrams showing shunt load terminal connected to trailer chassis with same gauge cable (2/0) as inverter through a 300Amp ANL fuse.
The trailer battery -VE terminal came factory grounded to chassis with #4 gauge. Should I add another ground for the DC side of inverter & should that cable gauge match the inverter wire gauge?
I will be installing a 250Amp ANL fuse on the +VE battery terminal (after the cut off switch). Is it advisable to also fuse the -VE side? If so. should it match the +VE side?
 
Does an absorption fridge (3 cu ft Norcold) use any/much power when operating on propane?
Toying with the idea of replacing it with residential (compressor) fridge. Magic Chef has a 4.8 cu ft with a draw of 1.5 Amps.
Has anyone gone this route? Results?
 
The 12V control circuit requires a very small amount of power. It is on the data plate. IIRC, they're around 5W.

I have a 7.Xcuft dometic in the 5th wheel. On 120VAC, it's a 325W beast that can use as much as 5kWh/day. I have already sourced a couple of "residential" options about 9-10cuft at 0.9kWh/day.

1.5A*120VAC is 180W. That would be brutal running full time. Not sure what the ratio is. If it has the yellow energy label with annual kWh usage, I'd use that. Given the approximate 1/2 size, your 4.8cuft unit would likely use 0.4-0.5kWh/day.

If you want to go full time AC and eliminate the propane option, it makes sense. A lot of folks do it.
 
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Did you mean to say 180 Wh (not 180KWh)?
So if running on a 100Ah Lithium battery through a 2200W sine wave inverter, it should run for approx 12 hrs if that was the only load?
I understand that electrical inefficiencies would lower running time & the battery BMS low voltage shut off may kick in at some point.
 
Nope. I meant WATTS only. :)

12V * 100Ah = 1200Wh / 180W = 6.7 hours.

This assumes the unit is running the entire time, and it won't.

The more reasonable estimate is the 400-500Wh per day, which factors in cycling on and off.

Should run 2-3 days.
 
I have installed a 2200W in my TT. It is a stand alone unit (not connected to TT inverter charger).
Does anyone have any advice on whether the DC -ve side of an inverter should be grounded to TT chassis?
I have already grounded the AC lug on the front of the inverter.
 

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