CATL 271Ah cell issues.

[MrM1]

Hit refresh, I just edited the above. And I stand open to correction and will edit corrections as others more knowledgeable members critique my comment

 

[Brewman]

Hoping for some good news today.

 

[Michael B Caro]

Ok, the initial response was not what I had hoped for but after some more pictures of their cells and packing, as well as the packing that should be used, I got the following series of messages when I checked this morning:

Michael, we have updated the package this month, and each package is 4 pcs not 8 pcs,

also could you collect pictures of the leaking battery, information? We will appeal to the forwarder

corner protection will be added next time

could you ask these guys to check the battery voltage?

We will evaluate the leaky and sunken batteries and send you new ones for replacement.

 

[p40whk]

Ok, the initial response was not what I had hoped for but after some more pictures of their cells and packing, as well as the packing that should be used, I got the following series of messages when I checked this morning:

Michael, we have updated the package this month, and each package is 4 pcs not 8 pcs,

also could you collect pictures of the leaking battery, information? We will appeal to the forwarder

corner protection will be added next time

could you ask these guys to check the battery voltage?

We will evaluate the leaky and sunken batteries and send you new ones for replacement.

I did check the voltage on the 4 I received; two at 3.296V and two at 3.297V but is that really the only indication that the batteries are any good?

 

[Michael B Caro]

I'll wait and read the responses of people more knowledgeable.

But from what little I know, there are at least 2 types of Grade A, then B
A+ = new stock factory spec. Orders place direct to the factory to meet a buyers spec
A- = new but old stock. Possibly commodity cells
B = may be new but have some kind of factory defect. Did not meet spec
- OR possibly B might be used pull from some large lot of EVs, but still deemed usable for energy storage (but not sure)

I would suspect there are some blurring of the lines above where a supplier might cross those lines in promoting cells to boost sales.

C = (If there is such a thing) is still further down the food chain

Here is something I have prepared for my website on cell grades. I see that I neglected to include discussion of the QR code and so I will be doing that and try to add it here tonight. The short version is that QR codes are often deleted or scratched out by the manufacturer so that people can not buy on the "gray" market and then try to have the factory honor any warranty or get a refund. Some companies are more strict on this than others....with CATL being the most strict by far. Lack of the original QR code is not necessarily an indication that the cell is of poor quality.
I have had 3 suppliers read this, and all thought it was a pretty stab at trying to sum up cell grades.

LIFEPO4 CELL GRADES​

There is no standardized grading scale, or list of grading labels, of LifePo4 cells. Although there is some commonality, suppliers each grade as they see fit. Some are more honest than others of course, and so one has to be careful.

The following is a guide as to the grades I put on cells are. They may, or may not, be the same as any particular Chinese supplier would put on the same cell. My grading is based on the specifics given to me by the suppliers about the cells, unless they are cells that I have had shipped to me in the past from the same supplier, and so have hands on knowledge of the cells. I deal with only suppliers that I think I can trust, but as time goes on some are dropped based on my experience with them, and some others added to the list on a trial basis when/if someone wants cells that my more trusted suppliers do not have in stock. I try to indicate when cells listed are from a supplier that is new to me. I will list them in what, to me, is an ascending order in terms of quality/desirability.

The closer cells are matched, the better/more efficiently they work together in a pack.

The fact that a cells has some dust on it, scratches, an air bubble (or many air bubbles) under the pvc wrap, small dents, and even some slight swelling, does not mean that those cells are used cells. Commodity cells in particular will often have some, or all of these things. By the time they get to you these cells may have passed from the manufacturer to a large distributor, to a supplier, and then shipped to you. Obviously, if Big Boss Battery receives them and then ships them to you, that adds one more step in which they could be scratched or suffer a dent (although we will be as careful as possible to not blemish the cells in any way). Along the way they may have been wrapped (or re-wrapped) in pvc film, had studs laser welded on, or been handled in any of a number of other ways that could cause these blemishes. Unless there is very severe denting, or swelling, these things will not normally effect the performance of the cells. Big Boss Battery will do it's best to advise you of these blemishes before hand but, unless we have received and inspected the cells, we will not always know of these conditions.

USED CELLS​

I will not, generally, knowingly order cells that are truly used cells. I try to say “never”, or “always”, and so I leave it open as to if there may be some instances in which I will. But, if/when that happens I will give all of the information I can possibly get on those cells. If someone is looking for used cells to save money on a particular installation, I will try to locate what they are after.

NEW GRADE A (OR A-) COMMODITY CELLS​

These are generally cells may be from the same manufacturing batch, but in most cases are not. These are what is typically sold on the market. These cells are routinely called Grade A by the suppliers but, usually, are in fact A- cells. A- cells are often cells that are not quite up to what it takes to be used in EV packs, but are perfectly good for solar storage and any other uses they are put to by DIY guys. Most suppliers will just call A- cells A cells, and so will not differentiate between the two.

CELLS FROM EV PACKS​

Cells from EV packs. These cells were top quality cells that made the cut to be used in EV packs for Electric Cars, Bus or Truck . But, the packs sat in the warehouse a bit too long, or became obsolete when a design change was made . The packs were then disassembled, and the cells thoroughly tested and have the highest grade in matching like (IR , Voltage per battery pack. and with discharge effect >95% of the typical capacity. They are wrapped in PVC wrap and studs welded on. They are technically “used” cells due to being made into EV packs, but have never actually been used. Many (most) suppliers will just sell them as new cells. I actually rate these cells higher than the typical A grade commodity cells and, all other things being equal, would prefer the EV pack cells.

TRUE GRADE A CELLS​

True Grade A Cells. I consider a true grade A cell to be one that was good enough to go into an EV pack and all of the cells shipped in an order are from the same manufacturing batch. The chemistry of these cells varies a little from batch to batch, but is very consistent within the same manufacturing batch. The closer cells are matched, the better they will perform together in a pack. So it is preferable to have all of the cells from the same manufacturing batch. Weather being from the same manufacturing batch makes a significant difference in the performance of a pack for our uses, is debatable I am sure. So, everyone must decide for themselves if the cost difference is justifiable.

TRUE GRADE A+ CELLS​

True Grade A+ Cells. These are true grade A cells that are not not only all from the same manufacturing batch, but were also matched and batched at the factory. So, the factory tested all of the cells in that batch and separated them as into groups (usually of 16 cells) that were the most closely matched for voltage, resistance, and capacity from within that batch. These cells will usually come with the factory test report of the actual cells shipped to you. Most suppliers will say that there is no such thing as a grade A+ cell, but I think that it is worth separating these cells into a category of their own. As with true grade A cells, everyone must decide for themselves if the performance of a pack made from these cells is really going to be enough to justify the extra cost.

 

[Brewman]

Does this mean we only get a partial replacement? I don't trust the cells with big dents

 

[Michael B Caro]

I did check the voltage on the 4 I received; two at 3.296V and two at 3.297V but is that really the only indication that the batteries are any good?

Small dents and such do not effect the usability of longevity of the cells. Nearly every supplier has told me that and guys that have used dented cells have confirmed it....at least to the degree possible.
Voltage is the quickest and easiest way to see if the cell is junk, but no the only thing that can be looked at. Generally, if a cell has the proper voltage, resistance, and capacity, it will be fine. That said, once you put them in a pack you may find one that is a "runner" (charges and discharges way faster than the other cells and so effects the capacity of the pack) and needs to be replaced. The bms does not necessarily show true state of the cell in real time. So you can see them go out of balance when charging or discharging when there is not really a problem....but if that is the case they should return to a balanced state very shortly after the charge/discharge is ended. Much faster than the bms could actually balance them again.

In this case, the packing and packaging is so over the top crappy that I really do not think that the voltage matters much at all. But I am sure that is a battle I will have to fight with then. I would dare say that most of the cells you guys received, other than the one leaking, are probably very usable with no problems.....but the way they were shipped in inexcusable and they certainly did not show up being what you paid for. So, I will fight the battles with them as they come up and hope for an appropriate outcome.

The mere fact that they had been shipping 8 of these large cells in a box at some point is ridiculous.

 

[Michael B Caro]

Does this mean we only get a partial replacement? I don't trust the cells with big dents

I showed you what they said. From there it will be a process of clarifying and battling them to do the right thing. So I can not say that it will be full or partial replacements right at the minute. All I can say is that I will be pushing for them to do what I would do if I were them and hope to get to that point in the end.

 

[acacia987]

I showed you what they said. From there it will be a process of clarifying and battling them to do the right thing. So I can not say that it will be full or partial replacements right at the minute. All I can say is that I will be pushing for them to do what I would do if I were them and hope to get to that point in the end.

I am under the assumption you will contact us (those affected) through PM if additional information is required?

 

[MrM1]

Ok, the initial response was not what I had hoped for but after some more pictures of their cells and packing, as well as the packing that should be used, I got the following series of messages when I checked this morning:

Michael, we have updated the package this month, and each package is 4 pcs not 8 pcs,

also could you collect pictures of the leaking battery, information? We will appeal to the forwarder

corner protection will be added next time

could you ask these guys to check the battery voltage?

We will evaluate the leaky and sunken batteries and send you new ones for replacement.

So are u needing more pics? I hesitate to even touch the partial shipment I received because of the electrolyte leak. But even if I get an acceptable voltage, a cell at rest is no indication of how it will preform under load.

Some cells were leaking
Most were dented
Some ( all? ) had damage to posts and black top cover
And most all were deformed from swelling to a lesser or greater degree
None had labels to indicate capacity or IR ETC

And I only received 12 out of 16

With no labels on what we have, if only a few are replaced how do we even know the capacity of what we have (unless we cap test - some of us do. Some don't). The sell can say they are 271ah, but how do we know? And based on the shipping conditions I have trust issues

My intention was to make a battery bank of 8s2p. I really have no interest in making up a bank of hodge podge cells with just a few replacements of possibly different cell types.

 

[Umatillab24]

Michael, The fact that they want “more pictures” after having seen what we have all seen and that they are going to “appeal to the forwarder” (who should have had no hand in packaging) tells me that they are going to try deflect blame and need more info. as a stall tactic.
Could you please state it to them simply send new replacement cells for ALL the ones received regardless of the amount of damage or this will be the end of buying from them?
Thanks for your work on this.

 

[Rob Cameron]

Small dents and such do not effect the usability of longevity of the cells. Nearly every supplier has told me that and guys that have used dented cells have confirmed it....at least to the degree possible.
Voltage is the quickest and easiest way to see if the cell is junk, but no the only thing that can be looked at. Generally, if a cell has the proper voltage, resistance, and capacity, it will be fine. That said, once you put them in a pack you may find one that is a "runner" (charges and discharges way faster than the other cells and so effects the capacity of the pack) and needs to be replaced. The bms does not necessarily show true state of the cell in real time. So you can see them go out of balance when charging or discharging when there is not really a problem....but if that is the case they should return to a balanced state very shortly after the charge/discharge is ended. Much faster than the bms could actually balance them again.

In this case, the packing and packaging is so over the top crappy that I really do not think that the voltage matters much at all. But I am sure that is a battle I will have to fight with then. I would dare say that most of the cells you guys received, other than the one leaking, are probably very usable with no problems.....but the way they were shipped in inexcusable and they certainly did not show up being what you paid for. So, I will fight the battles with them as they come up and hope for an appropriate outcome.

The mere fact that they had been shipping 8 of these large cells in a box at some point is ridiculous.

Regardless of the voltage, I don't trust any of these cells as they are badly dented and are bloated....not what I paid for. Also, the QR Codes are missing (looks like they were pulled off). I don't trust them and just want a new shipment sent with the cells I ordered.

 

[Brewman]

With no labels or QR codes, how will we know that any replacement we get will match.

 

[Kevox]

I intend to pick mine up at the first UPS location after arrival at the port. If I have the same supplier and crappy packaging, it might help to determine whether they are getting damaged during the UPS part of the journey. Even if the damage is happening during UPS transport, the fundament issue is the totally inadequate packaging. I wonder if I need to wait for them to arrive Stateside to ask UPS to hold them there for me? I have 8 shipping labels dated 6/29.

 

[rhino]

With no labels or QR codes, how will we know that any replacement we get will match.

What do you mean by "match"? Paying for matching cells costs considerably more. I just payed $125/cell for batched and matched EVE LF280K cells.

 

[Horsefly]

What do you mean by "match"? Paying for matching cells costs considerably more. I just payed $125/cell for batched and matched EVE LF280K cells.

I was just typing a similar comment. I think people are putting too much on the QR codes on these cells. I think if you want legit QR codes and really grade A, you need to pay Michael or Amy the extra $$. For the ones most of us get, if there is a QR code I'm pretty sure it is bogus, just pasted on there because they've heard that we out here like to see them.

 

[Kevox]

From Michael's quote "free capacity testing and matching prior to shipping"

 

[Horsefly]

From Michael's quote "free capacity testing and matching prior to shipping"

Lots of ambiguity there. I think for these commodity cells, "match" means the voltages are all the same. I think when you by "matched" cells from the EVE factory I would bet the cells are from the same batch, have the same internal resistance, and the same capacity.

And of course, some number of these seller (even the ones Michael works with) lie.

 

[MrM1]

With no labels or QR codes, how will we know that any replacement we get will match.

What do you mean by "match"? Paying for matching cells costs considerably more. I just payed $125/cell for batched and matched EVE LF280K cells.

I fully understand the concept of matched and batched. And I realize this costs more.

I think the concern here is not so much that each cell is exactly the same, but rather, is each cell (in our case from the original shipment and some partial replacement)...

... Are the cells even the same. That is, are they the same manufacturer, same physical Size, same capacity, etc. How do we even know any of these are CATL cells at all ?

These cells that many of us received were sold as 271ah. BUT... There are no labels on the cells or boxes and there is no supporting documentation.

Are these cells 270? 271? 280? Who knows. If we only get a partial replacement of cells , the cells may not "match" ... As in may not even be the same brand or Ah. If we could not trust the supplier to securely ship the cells, I don't think we can take their word on "yes this partial replacement of cells is the same as what you have"

Many of us planed to build battery banks of configurations like 8s2p. Cells of different sizes, in different conditions, different capacities, etc are not a good idea IMHO.

 

[MrM1]

Here is something I have prepared for my website on cell grades. I see that I neglected to include discussion of the QR code and so I will be doing that and try to add it here tonight. The short version is that QR codes are often deleted or scratched out by the manufacturer so that people can not buy on the "gray" market and then try to have the factory honor any warranty or get a refund. Some companies are more strict on this than others....with CATL being the most strict by far. Lack of the original QR code is not necessarily an indication that the cell is of poor quality.
I have had 3 suppliers read this, and all thought it was a pretty stab at trying to sum up cell grades.

LIFEPO4 CELL GRADES​

There is no standardized grading scale, or list of grading labels, of LifePo4 cells. Although there is some commonality, suppliers each grade as they see fit. Some are more honest than others of course, and so one has to be careful.

The following is a guide as to the grades I put on cells are. They may, or may not, be the same as any particular Chinese supplier would put on the same cell. My grading is based on the specifics given to me by the suppliers about the cells, unless they are cells that I have had shipped to me in the past from the same supplier, and so have hands on knowledge of the cells. I deal with only suppliers that I think I can trust, but as time goes on some are dropped based on my experience with them, and some others added to the list on a trial basis when/if someone wants cells that my more trusted suppliers do not have in stock. I try to indicate when cells listed are from a supplier that is new to me. I will list them in what, to me, is an ascending order in terms of quality/desirability.

The closer cells are matched, the better/more efficiently they work together in a pack.

The fact that a cells has some dust on it, scratches, an air bubble (or many air bubbles) under the pvc wrap, small dents, and even some slight swelling, does not mean that those cells are used cells. Commodity cells in particular will often have some, or all of these things. By the time they get to you these cells may have passed from the manufacturer to a large distributor, to a supplier, and then shipped to you. Obviously, if Big Boss Battery receives them and then ships them to you, that adds one more step in which they could be scratched or suffer a dent (although we will be as careful as possible to not blemish the cells in any way). Along the way they may have been wrapped (or re-wrapped) in pvc film, had studs laser welded on, or been handled in any of a number of other ways that could cause these blemishes. Unless there is very severe denting, or swelling, these things will not normally effect the performance of the cells. Big Boss Battery will do it's best to advise you of these blemishes before hand but, unless we have received and inspected the cells, we will not always know of these conditions.

USED CELLS​

I will not, generally, knowingly order cells that are truly used cells. I try to say “never”, or “always”, and so I leave it open as to if there may be some instances in which I will. But, if/when that happens I will give all of the information I can possibly get on those cells. If someone is looking for used cells to save money on a particular installation, I will try to locate what they are after.

NEW GRADE A (OR A-) COMMODITY CELLS​

These are generally cells may be from the same manufacturing batch, but in most cases are not. These are what is typically sold on the market. These cells are routinely called Grade A by the suppliers but, usually, are in fact A- cells. A- cells are often cells that are not quite up to what it takes to be used in EV packs, but are perfectly good for solar storage and any other uses they are put to by DIY guys. Most suppliers will just call A- cells A cells, and so will not differentiate between the two.

CELLS FROM EV PACKS​

Cells from EV packs. These cells were top quality cells that made the cut to be used in EV packs for Electric Cars, Bus or Truck . But, the packs sat in the warehouse a bit too long, or became obsolete when a design change was made . The packs were then disassembled, and the cells thoroughly tested and have the highest grade in matching like (IR , Voltage per battery pack. and with discharge effect >95% of the typical capacity. They are wrapped in PVC wrap and studs welded on. They are technically “used” cells due to being made into EV packs, but have never actually been used. Many (most) suppliers will just sell them as new cells. I actually rate these cells higher than the typical A grade commodity cells and, all other things being equal, would prefer the EV pack cells.

TRUE GRADE A CELLS​

True Grade A Cells. I consider a true grade A cell to be one that was good enough to go into an EV pack and all of the cells shipped in an order are from the same manufacturing batch. The chemistry of these cells varies a little from batch to batch, but is very consistent within the same manufacturing batch. The closer cells are matched, the better they will perform together in a pack. So it is preferable to have all of the cells from the same manufacturing batch. Weather being from the same manufacturing batch makes a significant difference in the performance of a pack for our uses, is debatable I am sure. So, everyone must decide for themselves if the cost difference is justifiable.

TRUE GRADE A+ CELLS​

True Grade A+ Cells. These are true grade A cells that are not not only all from the same manufacturing batch, but were also matched and batched at the factory. So, the factory tested all of the cells in that batch and separated them as into groups (usually of 16 cells) that were the most closely matched for voltage, resistance, and capacity from within that batch. These cells will usually come with the factory test report of the actual cells shipped to you. Most suppliers will say that there is no such thing as a grade A+ cell, but I think that it is worth separating these cells into a category of their own. As with true grade A cells, everyone must decide for themselves if the performance of a pack made from these cells is really going to be enough to justify the extra cost.

^^ What he said ^^