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Possible increase of heart attack risk after mRNA vaccine.

Shale MacGregor said:
No, of course you didn't. You pointed out what you thought was evidence of 1223 deaths from the Pfizer covid vaccine, then on a completely unrelated random note , said that swine flu vaccine was discontinued after 25 deaths. It was completely unreasonable of me to think you mentioned those two things together because you thought they were related. Copy and pasting from antivax sites can be confusing when you don't research what you are pasting.
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I just read Bob’s post above that said he was leaving this thread again. Bob is better than some here but he does post bad information. What was really ironic was that he said he was leaving because people don’t read things! Good grief! The entire discussion yesterday was over things he posted without reading and then being forced to defend indefensible conclusions.
 
Dhasper said:
Samsonite reread your post. You view this as a choice between living in fear and living life. Two things: 1. Your focus is completely on yourself. What of your neighbors. You speak of your creator. What did he command of how you care for your neighbor. 2. Getting a shot takes 20-30 minutes tops and it is free. How is that not living? Such a simple thing to do? And if you won’t get the shot. Why? Is it fear? You said above you did not fear being disabled or dying. Those things won’t happen from the vaccine.
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Actually, I've thought about this a lot. I had been on the fence about whether I had wanted to go ahead and get a vaccine or not. I am not afraid of the vaccine per se. I don't know enough about how this newer vaccine design technology works. There are folks in the world who dispute it. There is no 'undo' button on it. Even in making prudent decisions, it does not indicate a fear in trying to ensure you are doing the best thing or not for yourself and others.

But at the end of the day, the deciding factor for me to skip the vaccine came down to freedom for me. When Joe Biden stood behind his administration and said to the American people that their patience is wearing thin, this came to me as a huge red flag. When you are trying to work with your fellow brothers, one should use love to work and convince others who aren't convinced of something, you can't do this through fear and scare tactics.

Sometimes it takes time for me to make a prudent decision on a topic (when my default answer is to not to something rather than to do something), and when someone or an organization is attempting to force me into something which comes with a time-based deadline attached to it, feeling boxed into a corner and I will push back. I will make a decision based on my own time. But since this whole fiasco of vaccine mandate involves fear tactics, and pressure of forcing me to quickly decide, I now simply decide, no, won't do it. My freedom is more important to me than complying with a new norm because those other people say it's right for me.

It may be sad that I could get another person sick and they might die as a result from me not getting vaccinated, but the current administration should've thought of that before they decided their patience was wearing thin. Of course I will do my best to not infect anyone as a matter of respect toward others. I did quarantine myself when I got Covid-19. I make every effort to keep it to myself.
 
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time2roll said:
And for me after the shot I felt like I had regained my freedom. Freedom to move around and interact without covid worries. Politics has nothing to do with covid as far as I am concerned.
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For me, getting Covid-19 for myself and making the natural antibodies for fighting Covid-19 in the future was very liberating. I feel I made it through the storm in victory. I too, can move around and interact with a smile...
 
If ones main decision to getting vaccinated is to protect oneself, you're doing the right thing. But because this is an imperfect "leaky" vaccine, the benefits mostly stop with yourself (aside from hospitilization) as one can still contract and spread the virus. Dont be naive and think you're protecting (except for staying out of the hospital) others by not being a carrier. Great care should still be taken as there will ALWAYS be people around you who wont, cant, or shouldn't, get the vaccine, for there own reasons. Shouldn't that be respected too?
I have people I am required to be in close contact with weekly, and still take great care (distancing, daily self symptom check awareness, etc) before interacting with them.
 
Samsonite801 said:
But at the end of the day, the deciding factor for me to skip the vaccine came down to freedom for me. When Joe Biden stood behind his administration and said to the American people that their patience is wearing thin, this came to me as a huge red flag. When you are trying to work with your fellow brothers, one should use love to work and convince others who aren't convinced of something, you can't do this through fear and scare tactics.
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Actually, all three work.. although fear and scare tactics do work best. This is why we have laws that carry penalties for breaking them, why we include burning in a lake of fire for the religious, and why police wear black gear. Fear tactics are amazingly effective.

Samsonite801 said:
Sometimes it takes time for me to make a prudent decision on a topic (when my default answer is to not to something rather than to do something), and when someone or an organization is attempting to force me into something with comes with a time-based deadline attached to it, feeling boxed into a corner and I will push back. I will make a decision based on my own time. But since this whole fiasco of vaccine mandate involves fear tactics, and pressure of forcing me to quickly decide, I now simply decide, no, won't do it. My freedom is more important to me than complying with a new norm because those other people say it's right for me.
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People make irrational choices every day.. sometimes the irrational choice is the right one, sometimes its the wrong one, but their reasoning is still irrational. You have no control over the attitudes of others, so making choices based on their mindset and attitudes it is not a wise way to decide something.

Samsonite801 said:
It may be sad that I could get another person sick and they might die as a result from me not getting vaccinated,
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No, actually that's not true. The vaccine doesn't stop you from getting covid, nor does it stop you from spreading it, it only makes the affects on you less severe.. in most cases...

Samsonite801 said:
but the current administration should've thought of that before they decided their patience was wearing thin. Of course I will do my best to not infect anyone as a matter of respect toward others. I did quarantine myself when I got Covid-19. I make every effort to keep it to myself.
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If you're making health decisions based on what a politician says, you should really reevaluate your decision making tree.

If a hurricane was on its way and the Biden administration said you need to leave your home immediately and issued "mandatory evacuations" because its going to be really bad, would you stay or leave your home?

What if the Biden administration said the same category 5 storm was going to hit, but "don't worry, the 180mph winds and 25ft storm surge is nothing to worry about" ?? What decision would you make then?

The fewer irrational choices you make in life, the better life is from every perspective.
 
MurphyGuy said:
Actually, all three work.. although fear and scare tactics do work best. This is why we have laws that carry penalties for breaking them, why we include burning in a lake of fire for the religious, and why police wear black gear. Fear tactics are amazingly effective.


People make irrational choices every day.. sometimes the irrational choice is the right one, sometimes its the wrong one, but their reasoning is still irrational. You have no control over the attitudes of others, so making choices based on their mindset and attitudes it is not a wise way to decide something.


No, actually that's not true. The vaccine doesn't stop you from getting covid, nor does it stop you from spreading it, it only makes the affects on you less severe.. in most cases...


If you're making health decisions based on what a politician says, you should really reevaluate your decision making tree.

If a hurricane was on its way and the Biden administration said you need to leave your home immediately and issued "mandatory evacuations" because its going to be really bad, would you stay or leave your home?

What if the Biden administration said the same category 5 storm was going to hit, but "don't worry, the 180mph winds and 25ft storm surge is nothing to worry about" ?? What decision would you make then?

The fewer irrational choices you make in life, the better life is from every perspective.
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Let's see if I can address these comments a bit...

1. I should rephrase this to 'with me, you shouldn't do this through fear and scare tactics.'

2. I don't claim to be the wisest man in the world, but my freedom (rock,paper,scissors), trumps all other things, as being the most important.

3. Great to know, so then why is everyone saying I need to vaccinate with such high urgency as to cease the spread of this virus? So this is more reason why it really doesn't matter to the collective, it more benefits the individual. So why are they so worried, if they're all protected?

4. There are lots of reasons I was 'for' and 'against', I was on the fence in many ways, however I have a lot of faith in my natural ability to fight off a virus, but the freedom thing just kind of sealed the deal. BTW, this is not political, this is about freedom. I may still decide to get vaccinated 10 years down the road say, but it would be based on my choice.

If someone says I need to evacuate for a storm, I will look around at the signs and evidences, make my own observations and decide for myself if that is a prudent decision for me. I am more the type that would not evacuate necessarily, I have been in some nasty storms and they are indeed fun to watch and experience when you're in the center of it (as long as you feel like you're not going to fly away with it hehe). I ultimately decide on my own fate though, and will make decisions based on information I collect, I am a proponent of free-agency, if a man wants to do something foolish and dangerous, then that is his choice. Ask Evel Knievel about this...
 
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Why does anyone put faith in what the government says ? They are all corrupt and paid off by their favorite business.

They only "recommend" what is beneficial to them. If the vaccine messes up your heart, too bad.
That's why they had you sign that waiver !

I am currently trapped in a nightmare dealing with these idiots.
I need Medicare Part B so I can get the correct insurance before I retire, which is any day now.
They want me to provide proof that I've had health insurance constantly for the past few years. Easy enough ?
I contact them online. They said to go to the local Social Security Office and they will handle it.

So I drove 30 miles and the office is locked up. Not a soul there. It's been locked up for months because of Covid.
A sign says " Call this number and make an appointment."
I called. Several times. Multiple menus and no one ever picks up.

So I go online. I have forms proving I had insurance. They have no one to send them to.

This is what Government is. A bunch of corrupt, lazy and worthless idiots that will rule over you
if you are dumb enough to vote people like this president into office.
 
Samsonite801 said:
I don't claim to be the wisest man in the world, but my freedom (rock,paper,scissors), trumps all other things, as being the most important.
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You are dealing with a half-dozen atheists on this thread who don't believe in God-given individual rights.
The socialist religion decides what's best for the group and screw what you think is best for you.
They will decide for you and you need to shut up. :)
 
BMcL said:
You are dealing with a half-dozen atheists on this thread who don't believe in God-given individual rights.
The socialist religion decides what's best for the group and screw what you think is best for you.
They will decide for you and you need to shut up. :)
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Rational and thoughtful as usual (Yes sarcasm).
 
MurphyGuy said:
Actually, all three work.. although fear and scare tactics do work best. This is why we have laws that carry penalties for breaking them, why we include burning in a lake of fire for the religious, and why police wear black gear. Fear tactics are amazingly effective.
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Didn't work so well in Iraq or Afghanistan, now did it?
Nor the "War on Drugs"

Similarly, one political party's attempt to maintain subjugation of a particular ethnic group.

Full frontal attacks result in a call to arms and bringing people together for a common cause.

Instead, pretending to be their friend and "helping" them has proven far more effective.
 
BMcL said:
Why does anyone put faith in what the government says ? They are all corrupt and paid off by their favorite business.

They only "recommend" what is beneficial to them. If the vaccine messes up your heart, too bad.
That's why they had you sign that waiver !

I am currently trapped in a nightmare dealing with these idiots.
I need Medicare Part B so I can get the correct insurance before I retire, which is any day now.
They want me to provide proof that I've had health insurance constantly for the past few years. Easy enough ?
I contact them online. They said to go to the local Social Security Office and they will handle it.

So I drove 30 miles and the office is locked up. Not a soul there. It's been locked up for months because of Covid.
A sign says " Call this number and make an appointment."
I called. Several times. Multiple menus and no one ever picks up.

So I go online. I have forms proving I had insurance. They have no one to send them to.

This is what Government is. A bunch of corrupt, lazy and worthless idiots that will rule over you
if you are dumb enough to vote people like this president into office.
Click to expand...

Don't forget, there is also a fairly large size group of people who will contend that this president wasn't legitimately voted into this position.

But even if we operate under the idea that he had been legitimately voted into position, his approval ratings are lower than ever now, with even many democrats having buyer's remorse.
 
BMcL said:
You are dealing with a half-dozen atheists on this thread who don't believe in God-given individual rights.
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Atheists believe in individual rights too. Just not that they are God-given.
 
BMcL said:
Why does anyone put faith in what the government says ? They are all corrupt and paid off by their favorite business.

They only "recommend" what is beneficial to them. If the vaccine messes up your heart, too bad.
That's why they had you sign that waiver !

I am currently trapped in a nightmare dealing with these idiots.
I need Medicare Part B so I can get the correct insurance before I retire, which is any day now.
They want me to provide proof that I've had health insurance constantly for the past few years. Easy enough ?
I contact them online. They said to go to the local Social Security Office and they will handle it.

So I drove 30 miles and the office is locked up. Not a soul there. It's been locked up for months because of Covid.
A sign says " Call this number and make an appointment."
I called. Several times. Multiple menus and no one ever picks up.

So I go online. I have forms proving I had insurance. They have no one to send them to.

This is what Government is. A bunch of corrupt, lazy and worthless idiots that will rule over you
if you are dumb enough to vote people like this president into office.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you need to re think your game plan here If the entity you so despise, also happens to be the one you need/want/contract services with...
 
Hedges said:
Atheists believe in individual rights too. Just not that they are God-given.
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It's just another red herring. Many atheists are also humanists. I support all freedoms that don't impose on others. Most conservatives are against many drugs, I am against drugs when they can affect others. I own a lot of guns, I hate social program waste, I disagree with limitations on freedom for my own protection, but I will get branded a leftist liberal because I realize that social structures exist and require some thought.
 
BuffaloTrace said:
Sounds like you need to re think your game plan here If the entity you so despise, also happens to be the one you need/want/contract services with...
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You mean, the one (entity) he paid a decent share of his wages from every paycheck into, seen on his W-2 form for many years of his life (the entity that is supposed to be in service to him)...
 
Samsonite801 said:
You mean, the one (entity) he paid a decent share of his wages from every paycheck into, seen on his W-2 form for many years of his life (the entity that is supposed to be in service to him)...
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Social Security Administration, everything is spelled out for you when applying for said benefits, even the fact that benefits/liabilities can be changed at any time. Like I said, for someone who despises them so much, also wanted and sought the services of that particular agency....or were you also "forced" to sign.
 
Samsonite801 said:
3. Great to know, so then why is everyone saying I need to vaccinate with such high urgency as to cease the spread of this virus? So this is more reason why it really doesn't matter to the collective, it more benefits the individual. So why are they so worried, if they're all protected?
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I will take a swing at this and respectfully disagree with the earlier statements.

We need to look at this question on two fronts: (1) how the vaccine works on an individual basis and (2) how vaccination works on a population basis.

I will need a while to come up with citations as this is ongoing research but, on an individual level, it is not accurate to say the vaccine does not reduce transmission. It does. The vaccine was not created for Delta, it was over 90% effective against early Covid. What we have now in the immune response to the vaccine and Delta looks like a sliding scale due to Delta diminishing the impact of the antibodies produced by the vaccine. The highest percentage of effectiveness remains against hospitalization and death but then we see the diminished strength as it relates to preventing symptomatic infection and asymptomatic infection. However, the vaccine still reduces both transmission and length of infection. These two factors then work in tandem to protect others. However, this response diminishes with natural infection immunity and vaccine-induced immunity over six months (whether this happens with the booster remains to be seen). Clearly, an individual shortly after vaccination or natural infection is highly unlikely to get infected. As the immunity diminishes that changes.

Second, from a public health perspective, vaccines really are not viewed as an individual protection measure (although that is how marketed) but a population-based measure. Here, we are not only focused on individual health but also on protecting our infrastructure and economy for the long-term health of the population. This gets us more in line with the herd immunity line of thinking than the individual. It is also wrong to think of herd immunity as being all or nothing as often done in the press. Herd immunity is also on a sliding scale. The impact of the US campaigns against polio and measles, do relate to individual protection but are mostly due to robbing these of their ability to get established. Think of Covid, Measles, and Polio with their extremely high transmissibility as fire and all of us as the forest. View the vaccine as water. A wildfire will destroy the entire forest but a water-soaked forest can significantly slow, or stop, the spread. Yes, individual trees will still get burnt and damaged but the fire will die out or become manageable. Fires die without fuel and viruses die without fuel. We are the fuel and vaccine is our water.
 
Hedges said:
Atheists believe in individual rights too. Just not that they are God-given.
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Yes, what if we did this throughout the board. Here is my comment on this solar panel or circuit and then BMcl jumps in to say "Hey that guy is an atheist"?
 
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