SMA sunny island settings for signature solar EG4ll batteries

[Louiesun]

I have got my system working now. I had to put the SI battery settings as a 46V system instead of 48V. I haven't had a trip on the BMS sense and the SOC finally is close to the same on BMS and SI. The BMS SOC drops faster than the SI SOC which is better than the otter way around. As for communication with SI and BMS I have found no way to get that to work, both companies say they are not compatible yet but may offer firmware updates in the future to offer compatibility.

I find myself in a similar boat. May I ask how you were able to reduce nominal voltage to 46 from 48V? Thanks very much!

 

[Hedges]

Either in quick configuration, or parameter direct access from menu.

The following parameters must be set when "New Battery" is selected:
– Battery type (VRLA, FLA, NiCd), default setting: "VRLA"
– Nominal voltage of the battery (42 V to 52 V in 2 V steps for FLA and VRLA, 43.2 V to 48 V
in 1.2 V steps for NiCd), default setting: "48.0 V"

19.2.2 Battery Settings (220#)
221# Battery Property

BatVtgNom Nominal battery voltage
VRLA 48 V
FLA 48 V
NiCd 45.6 V

 

[carlsonultimate]

I have the same situation; I would like to go w/ the lifepower eg4 LL ($1499/$1599) and want to get at least 30kw, possibly upwards of 40kw. These still qualify for 30% tax breaks in 2022 and my accountant says go for it since I live in California and we pay an ungodly amount of taxes here as a business owner. I may go w/ SOK but I can get more like 40kw of lifepower for the price of 30 kw of SOK. I do own an EV (Tesla MSP85) and want to charge off-peak w/ the bank 2-3 times per week.

I have an existing 8000 watt solar system w/ sunny boy SB7000US inverter grid-tied. Its been working perfectly for 7 years now - I installed it and permitted it myself - had $9k total invested into it. Even w/ all this power being generated, we still have a true-up of $3k per year on PG&E. I would like to reduce that down to less than $500.

We produce between 30kwh per day in the winter and 55-60kwh per day in the summer in Northern California. I bought a bundle of sunny islands (5048's) - two of them from 2011 for a little over $2k. They were functional from a working setup. I also got another SB6000US w/ the rs485 card the previous owner used in off-grid mode to work with the setup. The previous owners installers had problems w/ the settings on the sunny islands (they upgraded the software) but had issues w/ the generator start feature when using lithium on the homegrid stack'd batteries - this was probably installer error. The previous company got fired by the customer and the new company put in a sol-ark for the customer and that was the end of his problems.

So basically I want 30-40kw of storage using lithium (the agm's and lead acid batteries are crap for daily cycling) and I'm going to spend $10-15k to accomplish this and don't want to mess with them for a decade, similar to how my existing grid-tied solar has functioned so far.

Does anyone have the EG4 LL / Lifepower settings to work w/ sunny islands successfully? My goal is to also get another 2 sunny islands as slaves so I can run my 5hp well pump when power is out; the existing two units may do the job but it will be marginal.

I'm an EE/ Programmer and design automotive microcontroller add-ons for a living, so I am ok to do some mods w/ a raspberry pi or arduino w/ canbus. Not sure how installers these days are successfully doing these - on the forums there is a barrage of posts but not a lot of clear solutions. I have an arduino board now we use in automotive w/ canbus modules which might be able to talk to everything over can or rs485.

If lifepower cannot do closed loop but open loop can be done properly; i'll go that route. Otherwise i'll give up 5-10kw of storage to get SOK on the sunny islands and call it a day. I also have a 16kw generac that will be hooked up to the SI's in this setup and have a 100a transfer switch that can be used w/ the islands. The 16kw generac barely starts the 5hp well pump and I don't really want to use it any longer in that situation. I was told by a well service company I would really need more like 20kw for 3 seconds to start the 5hp well pump. It works but may cause premature failure of the generator, inverters and the 5hp motor without extra headroom.

Thanks

Brock

I have had my setup working for the last 5 months or so. Its not perfect but it is functional. had to set it as a 46V system instead of 48V. The main problem is the SOC doesn't match up. The Battery BMS SOC drops faster than the SMA so I don't the system shutting off when there's still juice left.

 

[carlsonultimate]

I find myself in a similar boat. May I ask how you were able to reduce nominal voltage to 46 from 48V? Thanks very much!

You do it in new battery set up.

 

[BigPines]

I just got off the phone with Current Connected. They say SMA support was discontinued because it never really worked correctly. The Sunny Island couldn't trigger the charge / stop charge fast enough. Also, the state of charge was consistently registering wrong (low). They said they tried to work with SMA because they felt the issue was on the SMA side (so then how to other supported batteries do it?) but SMA refused. Since SMA is now discontinuing the Sunny Island line, this is now a dead end. I asked if source code for the BMS was available to develop custom firmware for the BMS but I was told no - and again that the problem is on the SMA side - which I have a hard time accepting.

For those with batteries previously programmed with the SMA protocol, they said we can just use those as the master battery and all the slave batteries will continue to operate based on the master instructions. For those without previously programmed batteries for SMA, the protocol can still be changed to SMA using the RS232 cable. Again, we can expect the glitches mentioned above if we use that protocol since apparently it was only half baked. Perhaps someone will figure out how to make this work correctly some day. Maybe we need an intermediary device which can interpret between the BMS and the SMA Sunny Island. I hope so.

Overall, a pretty crappy situation for those who invested in this battery specifically because of the advertised SMA support. I am very disappointed. I hope this is able to help someone else.

 

[Hedges]

Since SMA is now discontinuing the Sunny Island line, this is now a dead end.

Any links or references to that?

A newer model Sunny Island is sold in Europe. Do you know if that is also being discontinued, or if it will come to the US?
I noticed it had a different list of compatible 48V batteries.

We've heard Sunny Boy is being discontinued, replaced with Hybrid Smart Energy. But that isn't going to hold a candle to Sunny Island and all its split phase, 3 phase, multi-cluster capabilities.

But I can imagine them going to all HF designs, so much lighter and cheaper.

 

[BigPines]

Sorry, I don't have any personal knowledge about SMA's plans for the Sunny Island. This is just what Current Connected told me. I don't even know if it is true or not - I actually hope it isn't true. These are amazing inverters. It would be a shame if they were to discontinue them and replace them with cheaper / lighter high frequency designs.

 

[rem_electric]

I've just completed an install with 2 SMA Sunny Island 6048's split phase using EG4-LL V2 batteries, using their closed loop option. It works. Mostly. Something weird is going on where the backup generator starts randomly. The inverters start and stop the generator based on SOC exclusively. So maybe this is a similar issue that SOK was having. So far I can't get support from Signature solar or EG4. I talked with SMA, they said it's the unsupported battery manufacturers issue and talk to them. A total cop out if you ask me. There's a lot missing from EG4 documentation. I also spoke to another SMA sales representative. No plans of discontinuing SI, but the Sunny boys are gone, which really sucks. I'll be doing a bit of reverse engineering if I get no answers from EG4. I plan to sniff the CAN bus and do some data logging. Will let everyone know if.i come up with a solution, because I service and maintain numerous SI inverters and would love a solid option.

 

[Hedges]

Smart Energy should do everything Sunny Boy does, plus has battery input.
Maybe it will also work with ABU, as SBS does, to provide backup power.
Replacing Sunny Boy, I assume it will be priced similarly.

I expect it will ramp down power for frequency-watts. Would want it to ramp down invert from battery first, before it ramps down PV production. But what I'm really curious about is whether it would also ramp up battery charging at frequencies between those two. (I would like to used it on a Sunny Island system, keeping SI's lead-acid batteries at float while cycling Smart Energy or SBS lithium battery.)

Have you seen SI display SoC that matches the generator starting?

Can you use an external circuit to start generator when battery voltage dips to the lower knee? Or, does BMS offer any SoC based switching?

Of course, bad SoC data in SI also messes up load-shed.

 

[rem_electric]

Smart Energy should do everything Sunny Boy does, plus has battery input.
Maybe it will also work with ABU, as SBS does, to provide backup power.
Replacing Sunny Boy, I assume it will be priced similarly.

I expect it will ramp down power for frequency-watts. Would want it to ramp down invert from battery first, before it ramps down PV production. But what I'm really curious about is whether it would also ramp up battery charging at frequencies between those two. (I would like to used it on a Sunny Island system, keeping SI's lead-acid batteries at float while cycling Smart Energy or SBS lithium battery.)

Have you seen SI display SoC that matches the generator starting?

Can you use an external circuit to start generator when battery voltage dips to the lower knee? Or, does BMS offer any SoC based switching?

Of course, bad SoC data in SI also messes up load-shed.

According to my sales rep the Smart energy will cost nearly double the Sunny boys. However it will work with SI and can add more storage capacity to the microgrid.
I've seen the gen start when the SI and BMS both read 100% soc. It only runs for the minimum cycle (warmup and cool down) I have some ideas what might be happening. I can make a workaround for the gen control, but my concern is that there are other issues in the closed loop control that havent been revealed yet. It should just work, or EG4 should figure it out. They can't even write a decent user manual or answer emails, so my confidence is low.

 

[SilverbackMP]

According to my sales rep the Smart energy will cost nearly double the Sunny boys. However it will work with SI and can add more storage capacity to the microgrid.
I've seen the gen start when the SI and BMS both read 100% soc. It only runs for the minimum cycle (warmup and cool down) I have some ideas what might be happening. I can make a workaround for the gen control, but my concern is that there are other issues in the closed loop control that havent been revealed yet. It should just work, or EG4 should figure it out. They can't even write a decent user manual or answer emails, so my confidence is low.

Shit. That isn’t good news. Guess it’s time to order as many Sunny Boys as I think I will ever need.

I wonder how/if REC BMS will function with Smart Energy. Or maybe they contain the battery? I really haven’t paid much attention to them as they looked like they were more of a grid back up system and not really positioned for off grid.

I suspect they aren’t discontinuing the Sunny Boys world wide as SMA was positioned as a whole village type of product when scaled. Shame they are doing away with at least the US version.

Something told me that this EG4 product would be half assed.

Might have to go with Schneider or Victron for my next setup. I don’t really want to though.

 

[Hedges]

Double ?? Ouch! As in $5000? For something 1/4 the weight of Sunny Island?

SB was about $2500 list, $1800 street price. Bringing out a product that costs more isn't a way to win market share, but if for some reason it doesn't impact sales, then it could make sense.

Now if the 11.4kW model was double the 7.7kW, that would be OK. I'm not sure that SBS has any hardware costs SB doesn't have, and Smart Energy should just have a couple more inputs.

Great news if it works downstream of SI while managing its battery appropriately. Of course, as a GT PV inverter it is expected to; the question is how battery is managed. I didn't think people would be interested in a hierarchy of batteries, however. I just wanted that to keep SI's lead-acid at float.

REC BMS? That works for US model SI. European model SI has a different list of supported batteries. SBS has a list of HV batteries, and I haven't been able to find out what BMS that needs. REC of course supports up to 128s, although I don't know if that works with REC-SI BMS.

Discover the Sunny Boy Smart Energy | SMA America

The hybrid inverter at the heart of the SMA Energy System, with three backup options: Sunny Boy Smart Energy ► Discover now!

www.sma-america.com

SB Secure Power provided 120V up to 2000W direct from PV panels.
SBS Secure Power provided 120V up to 2000W from battery.
Dumb Energy "Backup Insecure" provides 120V up to 1920W ... only while the sun shines??
... and let me guess, it won't recharge battery from PV, either, with grid down.
I sure hope it supports ABU. With 11.4kW, they could have something here.

 

[SilverbackMP]

Double ?? Ouch! As in $5000? For something 1/4 the weight of Sunny Island?

SB was about $2500 list, $1800 street price. Bringing out a product that costs more isn't a way to win market share, but if for some reason it doesn't impact sales, then it could make sense.

Now if the 11.4kW model was double the 7.7kW, that would be OK. I'm not sure that SBS has any hardware costs SB doesn't have, and Smart Energy should just have a couple more inputs.

Great news if it works downstream of SI while managing its battery appropriately. Of course, as a GT PV inverter it is expected to; the question is how battery is managed. I didn't think people would be interested in a hierarchy of batteries, however. I just wanted that to keep SI's lead-acid at float.

REC BMS? That works for US model SI. European model SI has a different list of supported batteries. SBS has a list of HV batteries, and I haven't been able to find out what BMS that needs. REC of course supports up to 128s, although I don't know if that works with REC-SI BMS.

Discover the Sunny Boy Smart Energy | SMA America

The hybrid inverter at the heart of the SMA Energy System, with three backup options: Sunny Boy Smart Energy ► Discover now!

www.sma-america.com

SB Secure Power provided 120V up to 2000W direct from PV panels.
SBS Secure Power provided 120V up to 2000W from battery.
Dumb Energy "Backup Insecure" provides 120V up to 1920W ... only while the sun shines??
... and let me guess, it won't recharge battery from PV, either, with grid down.
I sure hope it supports ABU. With 11.4kW, they could have something here.

RECs work world wide. Not sure if the firmware is different. Toms is in Australia for example. And there’s a French based YouTube channel that uses REC and SMA (forget the name, blackberry farm or something, he’s not a pro YouTuber). Both him and Toms use bigger batteries than I do. 3p16s or 4p16s type of setups. Mine are simple 16s setups with a BMS each (plus a master) and then going to a combiner box

 

[SilverbackMP]

Af f$$$$&k! It seems Sunny Boys are out of stock everywhere except for a few that are selling at full list. Thanks for the warning SMA!

Yeah, next system will not be from them. Might as well install the Chinesium with six month long product windows at this rate.

I bet they are trying to bend over those that are buying Solar World trailers in this post Covid wave of auctions.

 

[Hedges]

REC has a couple firmware versions, one to support SI.
Europe used to have SI similar to the US model (it was there first, of course). Now Europe has the 8.0H model.
Do you know which REC model works with that 8.0H?

I expect to use LiFePO4 with REC for SI one of these days. I could see moving my AGM bank to new NEM 2.0 reservation system and putting lithium on my older system when it gets bumped to NEM 3.0. Except, I don't know how to get SI to do the time shifting desired for gaming the time of use and export rates.

I would expect SBS and SB-SE to do what's needed to not get screwed over by NEM 3.0, so downstream of SI might be the thing to do.

So you have 2x REC-SI 16s, and those are combined in parallel with a master?
Do you know if that's the same master that would be used to make a 32s or longer string? I hadn't seen reference to use of a master for parallel string BMS.

Af f$$$$&k! It seems Sunny Boys are out of stock everywhere except for a few that are selling at full list. Thanks for the warning SMA!

Yeah, next system will not be from them. Might as well install the Chinesium with six month long product windows at this rate.

Are you doing grid-tied systems with export, so you need the latest features?
I stocked up on 5000US, so I'm all set for off-grid systems. Or if I can figure out how to do zero-export (grid as generator?)

 

[SilverbackMP]

Of

REC has a couple firmware versions, one to support SI.
Europe used to have SI similar to the US model (it was there first, of course). Now Europe has the 8.0H model.
Do you know which REC model works with that 8.0H?

I expect to use LiFePO4 with REC for SI one of these days. I could see moving my AGM bank to new NEM 2.0 reservation system and putting lithium on my older system when it gets bumped to NEM 3.0. Except, I don't know how to get SI to do the time shifting desired for gaming the time of use and export rates.

I would expect SBS and SB-SE to do what's needed to not get screwed over by NEM 3.0, so downstream of SI might be the thing to do.

So you have 2x REC-SI 16s, and those are combined in parallel with a master?
Do you know if that's the same master that would be used to make a 32s or longer string? I hadn't seen reference to use of a master for parallel string BMS.



Are you doing grid-tied systems with export, so you need the latest features?
I stocked up on 5000US, so I'm all set for off-grid systems. Or if I can figure out how to do zero-export (grid as generator?)

Offgrid with 8x 16s (not all are installed in the photo below).


Feeding into a MidNite Solar 2000 amp combiner box using MidNite 250 amp DC breakers (also fused in the boxes with 300 amp blue sea fuses after the Rec Contactors).

And then to the SIs:

 

[SilverbackMP]

Side note : Two of my SIs were new ones and two were trailer takeoffs (not by me). It’s worth buying at least one new one as a master just so one doesn’t have to jack around with firmware updating. One less thing to worry about when commissioning.

 

[SilverbackMP]

I am beyond pissed and disappointed with SMA. Absolutely no warning. I do have that extra 7.7 mounted on the bottom there. But I was considering expanding with more panels. And the way I have the panels wired, I can’t use anything other than a 7.7 as I have a 280 foot run from the panels and packed the wires with as much voltage as I could. The wiring was still $2-3k not including paying folks to help me with the conduit install and pull.

 

[Hedges]

Unless you want old firmware. So you can use Sunny Island Charger or Midnight Classic and have them talk to SI.

Haven't seen your inside pictures before, only the inverters.
Are those 100 Ah or 280 Ah batteries?

I suppose REC master requests reduced voltage and/or current to avoid runner cells in all batteries, slowing down charging so the worst balanced can equalize?

Conduit - are we supposed to have plastic bushings on all? Or some rounded enough they're not a problem, and only reamed pipe is sharp enough to be an issue? Often I have romex clamps which I don't worry about; that has jacket. But I also pull wires through conduit. And large gauge is more difficult to bend as desired so would bear on those edges.

Offgrid, keep your eye open for new old stock. There are both transformer type and transformerless with wattage spanning range above/below 7.7kW. Some are less flexible on MPPT range (I think the higher wattage ones didn't support lower voltage?)

I would think you might consider 3-phase and multi-cluster if off-grid and building new systems. Although Multi-cluster box costs a lot, and single cluster is only 18kW.

 

[Hedges]

If rest of world models still available, might they work for you? Off-grid so US listings less important. Data sheet covers voltage and frequency you need. of course, firmware may not actually do what is expected. (I understand US model SI, set for 50 Hz, doesn't work as desired for 120V 50 Hz markets.)

Otherwise, there are used ones out there. Most recently I saw a 7.7kW -40 model on eBay. Now there is a -41 model "open box"