Stalling Issue on turbine

The chart had windspeeds up to 30 mph when I was testing. It will start unloaded in 7 mph. Only way I see is bigger swept area (more and larger blades, I could go to 80"), or taller tower (working on that). I had no problem with the old car batteries, but these new AGM's seem different, thats why I added a solar component, to keep the batteries as full as possible.

Hogheavenfarm said:

but these new AGM's seem different

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Those damn sparrows probably stuffed an old boot into your turbine.

I just completed a jumper cable with MC 4 connectors and a ceramic light bulb outlet, and found a working 40 watt appliance bulb, will be trying the lightbulb trick as soon as the wind cooperates, meanwhile I will scrounge a few more different wattage bulbs. At least that option is cheaper than new blades. Didnt see an old boot yet, but it is probably there. Quite the pile of chicken feathers and straw came out. Didnt find any bird in there when I came home today at least, maybe the screen is covering enough. I also unpinned the rotation so it can move with the wind anywhere from NNW to SSW.

Hogheavenfarm said:

I just completed a jumper cable with MC 4 connectors and a ceramic light bulb outlet, and found a working 40 watt appliance bulb, will be trying the lightbulb trick as soon as the wind cooperates, meanwhile I will scrounge a few more different wattage bulbs. At least that option is cheaper than new blades. Didnt see an old boot yet, but it is probably there. Quite the pile of chicken feathers and straw came out. Didnt find any bird in there when I came home today at least, maybe the screen is covering enough. I also unpinned the rotation so it can move with the wind anywhere from NNW to SSW.

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I am curious to know the results. It's hard to believe the agm batteries made that much difference.

Hogheavenfarm said:

I just completed a jumper cable with MC 4 connectors and a ceramic light bulb outlet, and found a working 40 watt appliance bulb, will be trying the lightbulb trick as soon as the wind cooperates, meanwhile I will scrounge a few more different wattage bulbs. At least that option is cheaper than new blades. Didnt see an old boot yet, but it is probably there. Quite the pile of chicken feathers and straw came out. Didnt find any bird in there when I came home today at least, maybe the screen is covering enough. I also unpinned the rotation so it can move with the wind anywhere from NNW to SSW.

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Thank's for the update. Let me know if I am reading your graph correctly. The left vertical column is no load rotor rpm. Top horizontal row is no load DC output voltage. Referring to the blue polynomial line, I interpret the DC output to be approximately 2.5 volts @ 90 rpm and 10.3 volts @ 210 rpm. If that is correct, I am still confused what the brown line represents. Using the same logic, I interpret the brown polynomial line to indicate 10 volts at 45 rpm. It looks like the MPH line is sharing the numbers used for rotor rpm. If that is the case, are you not achieving 12 volts no load until a 30 mph wind?

The upper axis line is simply the test number, or reading number. Not all readings obtained all the data, you can see the inflection points if you draw lines down vertically from the test number. For instance the gray line (wind speed) only captured results at test 3, 10,12, and 13. I graphed all results against the left axis numbers.

As a followup to the bulb test, I went out this morning in the dark and hooked the jumper line into the positive turbine feed with the bulb "on". Then I got to work and was thinking will this drain my batteries? The turbine lines are directly hooked to the batteries. The turbine is not spinning at the moment (no wind before dawn), today is not supposed to be much wind, maybe 5 mph from the north, so I dont expect it to be running all day, so nothing being generated at the generator, so I assume no current flow to drain anything. Be a problem if I get home to dead batteries! I am thinking not an issue though.

Raw data attached for reference -

Ok, now I get it. Nice work on the graph. Your batteries are fine. The diodes in the generator keep that from happening.

yup, confirmed that the batteries were ok when I got home. No wind today, but I did scrounge up a 65 watt halogen bulb and an old but working 100 watt bulb, to add to my 40w appliance bulb. Not likely I have anything smaller, and getting them is near impossible now. So waiting for a decent wind to run some tests.
Graph was done very early on, as soon as I had rewired the stator. Tests were done exactly where it is now, so no new variables introduced, except for the batteries, I had an old car battery in it last year. I didnt decog this one as these early tests showed no issues starting up, but cogging is barely noticeable when spun by hand.

When you try this, do you have a meter to put in series with the battery? With a 120 volt bulb in series, I would not expect much current flow at all.
Just a wild guess, somewhere between 100 milliamps and maybe 1 amp. What I hope happens is the rotor turns and you get some current flow.
After that, you can start looking at something along the lines of what High Desert recommended, a cube relay with maybe a voltage divider circuit. Below is a solid state relay I used to fix a similar problem. I have solar panels directly hooked to a DC motor driving an AC compressor. The motor was bogging partially because it was starting at too low of a sun level. I put a small 5 watt/12 Volt panel across the 3-32 VDC input with a variable resistor in series to adjust the on/off based on sun intensity. Works very well. I found it on Amazon.

Hogheavenfarm said:

4X3 Star pattern, 36 pole F&P motor, 3 phase into rectifier at the motor, 2 wire DC out. Enters the building and goes to dist block which feeds the batteries and the dumpload on the controller. Wind controller on the left side of pic (w /voltmeters) is run directly from batteries. Wind controller will activate dumpload at 14.8v. Solar controller is a separate system on the right side.
Designed to give 50v at 10 mph wind at 180 rpm, startup at 7 mph (unloaded).

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How many ohms and what is the wattage rating of the blue load dump resistor on the right in your photo?

There are two 300w dump loads, the second one can be switched out of circuit in case its too much. Dont have Ohm info available ATM. (at work)
As for the voltmeter, yes, I have one to put in series but having tried that before I just get battery voltage (in the pic it sits right above the wind controller), unless of course you mean inserting it between the bulb and the turbine? Or that with the bulb in the circuit I would get a different reading than battery voltage (as it is trying to flow through the bulb?) Ahh, I see, in series on the positive feed, got it. Sorry, had a stroke a couple of months ago and my brain is moving very slowly. Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I think I can do that. Again, just waiting for some wind now.

The SSR looks interseting but I know the turbine will put out more than 60v. something like this maybe better? 250VDC at 40 amps? I know its a bit overkill, but since this imported stuff has a high failure rate, staying away from full scale operation might make it last longer?
What would I trigger the relay with? I could parallel the turbine feed, but that would kick it in too low (3v?) The minimum voltage doesnt seem to be adjustable. I could use a solar panel (I have some 100w panels around) that would kick in around 20v or so, but only during the day.
An old school centrifugal rev limiter would work well, very steampunk.

Hogheavenfarm said:

What would I trigger the relay with?

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Check out this link VOLTAGE DIVIDER when you have a chance. Once you have the resistance values calculated, the divider will send the necessary 3v to the ssr once the pma output reaches "X".
You could also use a variable resistor in place of r1 to tweak the actual cut in.

OK, so I could use this to trigger the SSR as it would supply a fraction of the PMA feed rather than the full amount. I need the resistance values to determine where the cut in voltage will be. A variable resistor is a good idea. So I split off a parallel feed to this reducer, convert it to a lower voltage that will trigger the relay to close at a higher voltage than I am getting now. I havent played with electronics since the 70's, but I was decent back then. Thanks for all the help in this forum, I think I can get this up and spinning away again. So next step is to determine resistance values, which I assume is what the lightbulb will help me do.

Hogheavenfarm said:

OK, so I could use this to trigger the SSR as it would supply a fraction of the PMA feed rather than the full amount. I need the resistance values to determine where the cut in voltage will be. A variable resistor is a good idea. So I split off a parallel feed to this reducer, convert it to a lower voltage that will trigger the relay to close at a higher voltage than I am getting now. I havent played with electronics since the 70's, but I was decent back then. Thanks for all the help in this forum, I think I can get this up and spinning away again. So next step is to determine resistance values, which I assume is what the lightbulb will help me do.

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Yessir. Exactly.

Hogheavenfarm said:

The SSR looks interseting but I know the turbine will put out more than 60v. something like this maybe better? 250VDC at 40 amps? I know its a bit overkill, but since this imported stuff has a high failure rate, staying away from full scale operation might make it last longer?
What would I trigger the relay with? I could parallel the turbine feed, but that would kick it in too low (3v?) The minimum voltage doesnt seem to be adjustable. I could use a solar panel (I have some 100w panels around) that would kick in around 20v or so, but only during the day.
An old school centrifugal rev limiter would work well, very steampunk.

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That high unloaded voltage might be problematic for the solid state relay across terminals 4 and 3.
This is a rough draft of a circuit if you want to sketch it up. I would test it on a bench not using the generator or your AGM cells to confirm polarity's are correct and the circuit functions correctly.
I've used alligator clip leads and 9 volt batteries, small chargers etc. in the past to test things.

Remove the turbine positive wire from the battery and connect to SSR terminal 2.
Connect new wire (same size) between SSR terminal 1 and the battery positive terminal.
Run small light gage wire between SSR terminal 4 and battery negative terminal. (insert 1 amp or less fuse)
The control circuitry (voltage divider or variable resistor) would connect between terminal 2 and 3.
Terminal 3 and 4 is internally optically isolated. I wish the milliamps thru it at 30 volts were listed.
This would make the resistor calculation easier. If the sun shines here on Saturday, I will measure the one I am using.
The SSR is designed so that terminals 4-3 and 1-2 are isolated from each other by separate voltages. I am not sure they have to be as the input is optical. They would not be isolated when connecting terminals 2 and 3 (and resistors) to make this work. The potential for over 30 volts being applied across terminals 1 and 2 is there, but it might never get to that level if terminals 1-2 internal switching happens fast enough. One possibility is to set that dump load controller to around 25 volts and connect it across the turbine terminals but... I don't know if your dump load controller can take that voltage and if the dump load solenoid can act fast enough. Since there is a risk of the SSR being damage during trial runs, I suggest putting a small 1 amp or less fuse in the wire between the battery negative and terminal 4 in case the SSR fails. Also heat sink the SSR. Some come with them. The faster they switch the hotter they get.

Permanent magnet generators can generate deadly voltage if they becomes open circuit or under loaded for any reason. Always use
caution, wear insulated gloves, don't ground yourself etc. and meters and leads rated for that voltage.

You might not need to try the above. After completing the light bulb test, replace it with the 2nd dump load resistor you have.
Not the most efficient but nice and simple. There is some value of resistor out there that will make this work. You might even consider nichrome wire from Amazon. You can buy it by the roll. I've made high wattage resistors to load test batteries in the past at specific current values.

Just waiting on some wind. Very still here last few days, but storm approaching up the coast will probably hit me with medium SE winds, so I have made sure the turbine has that quadrant covered. Normally it is pinned NW for the winter season as that is where our prevailing winds originate.

Well, after no wind for a few days, a quik front came through (at night in the rain of course), I got some video, definitely spun up quick and started really humming, wind didnt last long, but much better action than before. This was with the 40w bulb in the line. Couldnt get a read on the voltage, I need to disconnect some feed lines for that. Will make that connection tomorrow. Will process the video monday and see what the rpm was, but it was spinning like it did during testing. I would guess about 100-120 rpm, but we will see. No idea on the wind speed, it was running about 4 mph today, not enough to start it until that front blew in.
If I splice in a digital volt gage will it (the wire) handle the voltage? Its only small gage wire as opposed to the 10mm feed, no idea of amp levels.

Hogheavenfarm said:

If I splice in a digital volt gage will it (the wire) handle the voltage? Its only small gage wire as opposed to the 10mm feed, no idea of amp levels.

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Yes.
Voltage is the rating of the insulation not the conductor. The current your meter draws should be in the milliamps range. As long as the meter can handle the voltage that should be fine.

Great ! Don't worry what the voltage value is at this point. Only need to confirm some current is flowing. I think it will be 1 amp or less.
Set the meter to amps first and put the meter leads in series with either the positive or negative charging wire. In your photo, it looks easy to do at the terminal block or battery . If you have an ohm meter, see what the resistance of one of your dump load resistors is. Might try that instead of the bulb next. Disconnect wire from one end of the resistor before measuring.

Good, thanks guys, will set up something today. Stll predawn at the moment, but looks like a low wind day ahead.
Also of note, I fixed one of the solar panels that feed those batteries and hooked it back up, so batteries were fully charged by nightfall, that may have also been a contributing factor, although the single panel had been keeping the voltage in the 13's during the day, (float), but adding the other panel back in brought it into absorption at 14.4 for awhile.
Will check the ohms on the dump as well today.

Could I use this meter (blue digital volt display) by jumping it parallel to feed line? The red jumper with alligator clip is on the feed from the turbine to the block, I could move the white jumper from the negative side to the other side of the block opposite the red jumper, this would be in parallel with the feed. I assume this would show voltage once voltage is flowing, although probably not until it exceeds battery voltage. Or does it really need to be a serial connection?
Getting to the amps after this.
Dump load ohm is 1.1 with feed turned off at breaker for that load. (the add-on dump load)
Amperage would have to be read with feed disconnected and turbine spinning, this will take some engineering as I have no disconnects on the feed side, and unloading the turbine in the wind is dicey. Will dig around and see what I have in the spare parts bin. I do have a clamp meter, couldnt I just read the amps directly with that?

Hogheavenfarm said:

Could I use this meter (blue digital volt display) by jumping it parallel to feed line? The red jumper with alligator clip is on the feed from the turbine to the block, I could move the white jumper from the negative side to the other side of the block opposite the red jumper, this would be in parallel with the feed. I assume this would show voltage once voltage is flowing, although probably not until it exceeds battery voltage. Or does it really need to be a serial connection?
Getting to the amps after this.
Dump load ohm is 1.1 with feed turned off at breaker for that load. (the add-on dump load)
Amperage would have to be read with feed disconnected and turbine spinning, this will take some engineering as I have no disconnects on the feed side, and unloading the turbine in the wind is dicey. Will dig around and see what I have in the spare parts bin. I do have a clamp meter, couldnt I just read the amps directly with that?

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I should have asked earlier if you had one of those. Clamp meter is better as long at it can read low values.

Hogheavenfarm said:

Could I use this meter (blue digital volt display) by jumping it parallel to feed line?

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I see no reason to move those leads.

Hogheavenfarm said:

Amperage would have to be read with feed disconnected and turbine spinning,

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You will have no current flow (amps) with leads disconnected. If light bulb in series allows turbine to spin you should see voltage and current at battery.