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This Might Be The Fastest Way to Double U.S. Grid Capacity

Our grid was overstressed and collapsed 25 years ago on the west coast.

Other than large solar farms (which need a feed in like any other generator), how do renewables, e.g. rooftop PV, require infrastructure upgrade?

It seems to me they reduce the power draw.
If generators don’t run they don’t make money to turn over into maintenance costs. The lowest price always wins.

Take a look at the issues that causes the Ercot black out a couple years ago. NERC has a nice 300 page public document.

Sure you can blame old school nat gas plants breaking, but it IMO the natural gas plants have been beaten up trying to compete with cheap renewables. Costs get cut maintenance gets deferred and bad stuff happens.
 
Yes, tubes. So braid aluminum wires around steel cable.



I think ionization isn't due to voltage, rather voltage gradient. Larger diameter should help with that.

3GW is a lot of power to step up/down.
ACSS is replacing ACSR, least for med transmission voltages around here.
 
This popped up on another forum, interesting concept.
  • The U.S.' aging infrastructure is struggling to keep pace with the rapid growth of renewable energy.
  • IEEE: improvements and replacements to the grid’s 8,000 power-generation units; 600,000 circuit miles of AC transmission lines and 70,000 substations to support increased renewable energy and battery storage could cost $2.5 trillion.
  • Upgrading existing lines using advanced conductors actually costs less than half what a new power line would cost because it does away with much of the construction spending.
Read more: -https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/This-Might-Be-The-Fastest-Way-to-Double-US-Grid-Capacity.html

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Not sure in your neck of the woods but reconductoring around here is pretty much just as invasive as a new line, only difference is you already have an existing ROW and easement.

Roads need to be built (last time heavy equipment was in the ROW was 60-70 years ago when the line was constructed) and wetlands permits are needed. Also new conductor or larger conductor usually requires brand new towers/structures put in the ground to carry additional weight.

I’m sure cost and impact is a fraction out in the mid west corn fields, not so much in the North East.
 
How about doing it the way we do, boost voltage and reduce current.

Assuming the towers are sound (not about to collapse due to pigeon poop like our bridges), evaluate each run to see if longer or otherwise higher voltage insulators can be used (or if other clearances are limiting factor.)

Change transformers for double voltage to allow 4x power transmission.

Maybe add some smarts for arcing detection, GFCI, which wasn't available when originally built.
Boost voltage? So taking a 115kv line and straight up converting it to a 345kv line actually will cause the need of a second conductor be strung per phase (not to mention each insulator needs to be changed out to protect the higher voltage) soon as you get to higher voltages not only does skin effect play a factor but so does corona emissions, simplest way to do that is dual conductor per phase.

So now you have twice the conductor in the air that requires twice the structural support. Twice the structural support prob needs wider ROW as spacing of conductors at 345 sure ain’t the same as 115. Right back to rebuilding a line plus a whole lot more.

Let alone all the 115kv breakers/busses and transformers then need to be converted at that station, you’re rebuilding the grid one station line at a time.

But it sure sounded easy to just say convert to higher voltages 😂
 
Boost voltage? So taking a 115kv line and straight up converting it to a 345kv line actually will cause the need of a second conductor be strung per phase (not to mention each insulator needs to be changed out to protect the higher voltage) soon as you get to higher voltages not only does skin effect play a factor but so does corona emissions, simplest way to do that is dual conductor per phase.

So now you have twice the conductor in the air that requires twice the structural support. Twice the structural support prob needs wider ROW as spacing of conductors at 345 sure ain’t the same as 115. Right back to rebuilding a line plus a whole lot more.

Let alone all the 115kv breakers/busses and transformers then need to be converted at that station, you’re rebuilding the grid one station line at a time.

But it sure sounded easy to just say convert to higher voltages 😂

I'm missing something here. Why would boosting the voltage require a 2nd conductor?

So we have voltage based breakers on the grid? Sounds odd.
 
If generators don’t run they don’t make money to turn over into maintenance costs. The lowest price always wins.
Depends upon what agreements you have. Any "utility" with an obligation to delivery power upon demand has to demonstrate firm and reserve power to support the contracts it has.

Pre-deregulation, that would be your local utility has to have enough generating capacity available for its customers. In a deregulated environment, that obligation flows to whichever firm you have an agreement to buy their power (local utility only has an obligation to distribute the power delivered, but you can usually buy your power from them).

A generator can get a fee to provide firm and/or reserve power to a utility with an obligation to deliver power to a customer.
 
Our grid was overstressed and collapsed 25 years ago on the west coast.

Other than large solar farms (which need a feed in like any other generator), how do renewables, e.g. rooftop PV, require infrastructure upgrade?

It seems to me they reduce the power draw.
1) it is the solar and wind farms that need the additional transmission capacity.
2) The addition of solar has led to the "duck curve", which requires a different type of generation. Transmission lines were built to serve the current power plants. If new on-demand plants are being built to match the Duck Curve needs, transmission lines are needed for those new plants.
 
Not sure in your neck of the woods but reconductoring around here is pretty much just as invasive as a new line, only difference is you already have an existing ROW and easement.

It is those ROW and easements that add years and costs to the process of building new lines.

Roads need to be built (last time heavy equipment was in the ROW was 60-70 years ago when the line was constructed) and wetlands permits are needed.

Less of an environmental issue if those roads are "temporary". In any case, new towers would be even worse.

Also new conductor or larger conductor usually requires brand new towers/structures put in the ground to carry additional weight.

According to the article, the new conductors are lighter, so no need for new structures. You might be able to add more lines in the process - 2 or more conductors where there used to be one.
 
1) it is the solar and wind farms that need the additional transmission capacity.
2) The addition of solar has led to the "duck curve", which requires a different type of generation. Transmission lines were built to serve the current power plants. If new on-demand plants are being built to match the Duck Curve needs, transmission lines are needed for those new plants.
This makes the assumption the solar production is not distributed. No additional infrastructure was required, nor needed an upgrade when I put panels on my roof. Of course it does not protect the power generation / corporate interest either. Same reason we don't want to put in micro-nuke plants. The closer the generation is to the load, the less grid you need.
 
I'm missing something here. Why would boosting the voltage require a 2nd conductor?

So we have voltage based breakers on the grid? Sounds odd.
It’s science, corona losses (ionized air) is a real thing.

345kv is dual conductors, 765kv (majority of Hydro Quebec massive system) uses 6 conductors per phase.


And yeah bushings on breakers is def voltage based, those breakers housing and inerupters (what break current flow and arching) are grounded, higher voltage bigger insulators. Bushings on 345kv breakers are 8’ tall, 115 is more like 3-4’.
 
Depends upon what agreements you have. Any "utility" with an obligation to delivery power upon demand has to demonstrate firm and reserve power to support the contracts it has.

Pre-deregulation, that would be your local utility has to have enough generating capacity available for its customers. In a deregulated environment, that obligation flows to whichever firm you have an agreement to buy their power (local utility only has an obligation to distribute the power delivered, but you can usually buy your power from them).

A generator can get a fee to provide firm and/or reserve power to a utility with an obligation to deliver power to a customer.
Agreed there are forward capacity markets but even then those can only do so much, older more traditional dispatchable units don’t clear more and more. Yet the new wind units get their slice of the pie.


Utilities that are deregulated usually only buy 6mo blocks per local regulatory rules in the hope prices will always be cheaper.
 
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I would have thought the bundle was just to reduce resistance,

(Oops, I didn't see those electromagnetic fields clearly.)
 
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I would have thought the multiple conductors was just to reduce resistance, but these four wires held in a square or more for hex etc. bundle approximate a larger diameter conductor, probably reduces voltage gradient to reduce corona discharge. Field from the wires merge into one.
Lets wind through better than a large pipe.

Obviously not a field I've worked in before, but now that it has been brought up, makes sense.

1709250481755.png 1709250566720.png
 
I would have thought the bundle was just to reduce resistance,

There’s dual 230kv lines they fly over a local grocery store parking lot, it’s single conductor, when it’s humid (or even worse raining) you can hear the crackling of the corona it’s kinda cool. If it was dual conductors it’d be silent.

I always am curious at how many people notice it as the walk right underneath.
 
I would have thought the multiple conductors was just to reduce resistance, but these four wires held in a square or more for hex etc. bundle approximate a larger diameter conductor, probably reduces voltage gradient to reduce corona discharge. Field from the wires merge into one.
Lets wind through better than a large pipe.

Obviously not a field I've worked in before, but now that it has been brought up, makes sense.

View attachment 199189 View attachment 199190
This is prob the coolest ROW I’ve stopped underneath and admired. Wife wasn’t as impressed.

 
I've spent a bit of time collecting fossils underneath the DC intertie.

IMG_0001.jpg
Spent quite a lot of time under some of the AC lines too.

IMG_0118.jpg
 
I'm going to make a long and maybe too-comprehensive reply.

Solar farms, large-scale battery-based storage facilities, and wind farms would all prefer to interface to an HVDC "grid" - but no such grid exists in the USA. (As far as I know, the only multi-point DC interconnect on this continent is in Canada, with just 3 shared endpoints). All other HVDC power distribution in the USA is point-to-point, generally converted to 60-Hz AC at the "consumer" endpoint.

The biggest of these HVDC distribtuion lines is the "Pacific DC Intertie", AKA "Path 65", providing about half of the Los Angeles power demand peak in summer. That's when Air Conditioning causes high demand in southern california. In winter, power transmission is actually reversed - supporting higher consumption in the North, for heating and lighting.).

When transmitting DC current, metallic electic cable wires do not suffer from a "surface" effect - the entire cross-section (diamater) of the cable is in use. Cables are more durable and cheaper to build. The cost issues arise at the endpoints, where power converters must either modify DC voltage between source and destination, or convert to AC (as 2-phase or 3-phase Inverters).

Altrhough AC transformer prices have been increasing in recent years, 'power converters' are vastly more expensive. The power converters are also less reliable, and generally have shorter lifespans. (Even though the lifespan, safety, and reliability of AC transformers has been an issue in man outages, both large and small.)

Although the paper referenced by the starting post was focused on AC Voltage "upgrades" rqdes to only 500Kv, newer and better-researched papers have shown voltages greater than 700Kv to be more cost effective for lengthy paths within the two more comepetent Intercoonects (Western and Eastern, excluding Texas - which is both non-cooperative and incompetent.). Lower voltages remain popular because power companies like staying with more familliar, less reliasble and less cost-effective products. In my own neighborhood, NV Energy is planning to build a new power line for energy exchange (primarily sales from growing Solar generation) into California, - but they propose only 500kV, again as an AC power line, even though the distance is fairly long and the fire/weather risks along the route are very high.

I have a fairly good understanding of current high-power electrical procution and distribution technologies (Path 65 runs North-South, about 40 miles East of my house, and my brother is an expert in large-scale grid outage prevention and blackout recovery.) The superior reliability, efficiency, and compatibility with increasing generaration from lower-carbon production methods (solar, wind, and perhaps others) makes the choice of adding new transmission capacity as a multi-point HVDC backbone better (for numerous obvious reasons, both technically and financially - but the political power of entrenched "AC-only" electric operators, and their enormous existing investments makes it hard to create, Their close relationships with wealthy and powerful cabon-based energy compaines adds more challenges, on both political and fiancial fronts.

An HVDC backbone would not have the phase-matching problems of current interconnects. Use of smaller AC distribution areas would also provide easier backout recovery processes. It would probably not induce high rates of cancer in people and animals living near power lines and voltage converters -- and AC problem (relating to rapidly shifting mageantic fields) which has not been adequately studied or documented - because the results would almost definitely offend the rich and powerful, perhaps even creating panic among homeowners living near transformers.

The USA suffers from low reliability, too many companies fighting aganst the public interest, and each other for maximum profits. The companies have great political power and they are regulated poorly, with frequent "revolving door" job changes between regulating commissions and the supposedly regulated companies. We have the slowest approval process in the world for adding new power lines, with no policieis favoring the construction of safer DC power lines. Unfortunately, I do not see any reason to anticipate a lot of improvements in any of these areas soon.
 
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It's a real shame so many "under-regulated" power companies would prefer not to toss their existing investments. I think what we need to do is just shut them down cold, and re-start all the underlying processes and build out new grid infrastructure. This will surely cut the capital costs to the point that rates will fall several orders of magnitude. While we are at it, we should just let the government just take it over completely. This will likely make it a drastically more efficiently run organization, since decisions made by committees of elected people are always superior, and will ensure everything is done fairly.

This is somewhat silly. I can assure you, if HVDC was dramatically better, and reduced operating costs significantly the utility companies would be falling all over themselves to implement it. If it's better, then it will gradually get adopted where and when it makes sense both financially and physically.
 
I'm going to make a long and maybe too-comprehensive reply.

Solar farms, large-scale battery-based storage facilities, and wind farms would all prefer to interface to an HVDC "grid" - but no such grid exists in the USA. (As far as I know, the only multi-point DC interconnect on this continent is in Canada, with just 3 shared endpoints). All other HVDC power distribution in the USA is point-to-point, generally converted to 60-Hz AC at the "consumer" endpoint.

The biggest of these HVDC distribtuion lines is the "Pacific DC Intertie", AKA "Path 65", providing about half of the Los Angeles power demand peak in summer. That's when Air Conditioning causes high demand in southern california. In winter, power transmission is actually reversed - supporting higher consumption in the North, for heating and lighting.).

When transmitting DC current, metallic electic cable wires do not suffer from a "surface" effect - the entire cross-section (diamater) of the cable is in use. Cables are more durable and cheaper to build. The cost issues arise at the endpoints, where power converters must either modify DC voltage between source and destination, or convert to AC (as 2-phase or 3-phase Inverters).

Altrhough AC transformer prices have been increasing in recent years, 'power converters' are vastly more expensive. The power converters are also less reliable, and generally have shorter lifespans. (Even though the lifespan, safety, and reliability of AC transformers has been an issue in man outages, both large and small.)

Although the paper referenced by the starting post was focused on AC Voltage "upgrades" rqdes to only 500Kv, newer and better-researched papers have shown voltages greater than 700Kv to be more cost effective for lengthy paths within the two more comepetent Intercoonects (Western and Eastern, excluding Texas - which is both non-cooperative and incompetent.). Lower voltages remain popular because power companies like staying with more familliar, less reliasble and less cost-effective products. In my own neighborhood, NV Energy is planning to build a new power line for energy exchange (primarily sales from growing Solar generation) into California, - but they propose only 500kV, again as an AC power line, even though the distance is fairly long and the fire/weather risks along the route are very high.

I have a fairly good understanding of current high-power electrical procution and distribution technologies (Path 65 runs North-South, about 40 miles East of my house, and my brother is an expert in large-scale grid outage prevention and blackout recovery.) The superior reliability, efficiency, and compatibility with increasing generaration from lower-carbon production methods (solar, wind, and perhaps others) makes the choice of adding new transmission capacity as a multi-point HVDC backbone better (for numerous obvious reasons, both technically and financially - but the political power of entrenched "AC-only" electric operators, and their enormous existing investments makes it hard to create, Their close relationships with wealthy and powerful cabon-based energy compaines adds more challenges, on both political and fiancial fronts.

An HVDC backbone would not have the phase-matching problems of current interconnects. Use of smaller AC distribution areas would also provide easier backout recovery processes. It would probably not induce high rates of cancer in people and animals living near power lines and voltage converters -- and AC problem (relating to rapidly shifting mageantic fields) which has not been adequately studied or documented - because the results would almost definitely offend the rich and powerful, perhaps even creating panic among homeowners living near transformers.

The USA suffers from low reliability, too many companies fighting aganst the public interest, and each other for maximum profits. The companies have great political power and they are regulated poorly, with frequent "revolving door" job changes between regulating commissions and the supposedly regulated companies. We have the slowest approval process in the world for adding new power lines, with no policieis favoring the construction of safer DC power lines. Unfortunately, I do not see any reason to anticipate a lot of improvements in any of these areas soon.
There are 4-5 new HVDC ties being proposed by investor owned utilities (in agreement with HQ) in the Northeast, each of them giant cash cows for the utilities, its local opposition (including many NIMBY environmentalists) a old fossil that’s fighting the forward progress.
 
It's a real shame so many "under-regulated" power companies would prefer not to toss their existing investments. I think what we need to do is just shut them down cold, and re-start all the underlying processes and build out new grid infrastructure. This will surely cut the capital costs to the point that rates will fall several orders of magnitude. While we are at it, we should just let the government just take it over completely. This will likely make it a drastically more efficiently run organization, since decisions made by committees of elected people are always superior, and will ensure everything is done fairly.

This is somewhat silly. I can assure you, if HVDC was dramatically better, and reduced operating costs significantly the utility companies would be falling all over themselves to implement it. If it's better, then it will gradually get adopted where and when it makes sense both financially and physically.
It works for Hydro Quebec, compare their rates with yours. Profits for the people!!!
 
Who paid for the dam?
Project owned by Hydro Quebec which is owned by the gov of Quebec. Largest such project in the world - size of NY state!
Built by Bechtel and $billions borrowed from investors. (For more info, google "James Bay power project")
 

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