I've (actually) done full home rehabs - including plumbing and electrical work (full wiring install, including panel). But, I'm busy these days, and I live 3 hours away from the site, so I don't have the bandwidth to attend to it regularly. I plan on - someday - snow birding from the property (it has a huge waterfall on it, so it will be a great place to retire). But until then, I will have issues getting back and forth is something happens.
Reality Check on Building a Family-Sized Home Off-Grid
- Thread starter djparnell
- Start date
You're right (I think) - don't the EG4s have charge controllers? Also, this will be a ground mount. B/c I am not up there in the winter, I need to be able to adjust them to 60degress to help with snow displacement. Also, the way the home will be built - facing South - the roof pitches will be facing East and West.
cs1234
Solar Wizard
- Joined
- May 9, 2022
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Really seems like the utility companies try to use people who live out in the boonies to subsidize their power line spread/growth. Are they going to kick some money back your way when they add more people onto those lines they run over time?
No - no one to share it with, unfortunately. It will be renting through Air BnB, as it is on the River and has a large waterfall, so it will definitely be rentable. That said, accounting may come into play, which could make the on-grid tie in less painful.
Ha. Good question. I have to verify this, but I believe that I get something if someone ties in within 5 years. After that, nothing. Plz don't quote me though - I have to verify that.
Super expensive - I'd have to do a 500 ft. well - and, b/c it's not my primary, I wouldn't get incentives. That said, again, as far as I can tell based on research, it's electricity-hungry to pump that fluid through hundreds of feet of lines. It is very energy efficient on a per KW basis, but used enough Kws to run the system to be a problem...
I bought a 5 Ton water to air furnace for $2000. Doing a horizontal layout for pipes. Coiled arrangement about 100 feet out, 6 to 7 feet deep. Outside of the digging, less than $5K (duct was work already in place).
I’m doing the digging myself with my backhoe, but if you’re doing new construction, you might already have the equipment there to do the digging for the trenches.
I’m doing the digging myself with my backhoe, but if you’re doing new construction, you might already have the equipment there to do the digging for the trenches.
Bluedog225
Solar Wizard
I’d be tempted to get the septic and fresh water sorted and rent it as a primitive glamping deal. Get some experience with the site. See how it rents.
Nobodybusiness
Solar Sponge.
Do you physically have them yet?
280ah server rack battery price too good to be true?
I received an instant message from an Alibaba supplier asking if I would be interested in a 51.2v 280ah server rack battery for only $950. Not sure what the shipping would cost but this seems crazy cheap?diysolarforum.com
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
18kpv has 3 mppts, 500+voc, 2x15a 1x25a, up to well 18000 watts of PV. SolArk is similar.
I hear you. I have a shed with east and west facing roof but I threw 2.4kw up there for cheap. Right now I'm getting up to 13kwh a day. In winter will be much less
The aio inverters already have charge controllers built in.
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Snaketzu
New Member
I kind of assumed some kind of heat pump/condenser combo would be standard with propane secondary, when I said "no electric heat" I meant resistive heat strips, I should have been more specific.
I absolutely agree the problem is simultaneous maximum demand which is why I recommended staying away from resistive cooking and hot water heating. A countertop inductive cooktop for light cooking is OK but a full size resistive range with oven not so much.
If you are going to have the propane tank sitting there to power the standby generator anyway, then gas appliances make a lot of sense. Here is why: 95%+ of the time the average all electric home doesn't use more than 90A of 240V power (22kW) and well more than 50% of the time it doesn't use more than 12kW. The reason that 200A main panel is there is for that small fraction of time when almost all of the big electrical loads (heat/AC, hot water, dryer, range) are all on at the same time. To equal this you would need 4x 12k inverters in parallel, increasing your upfront system cost, your idle system draw, and system inefficiency. Large resistive loads and batteries don't go together very well because at higher rates of discharge the battery efficiency goes way down and now all of the calculations are out the window.
If instead you go with propane appliances you remove all of these resistive loads from the electrical system entirely and you can now run the entire structure on a 100A electrical panel with ease. The money you save paying the electrician for upfront building and install cost will go a long way towards paying for the more expensive appliances, and the cost of two additional 12k inverters can instead be applied to more battery storage.
I have a different philosophy on solar than a lot of people I guess. Most of my customers don't have $100k to drop on the solar system so they are looking for another way.
The best way in my opinion is like my retirement home design, passive solar with minimal energy inputs needed for climate control and DC refrigeration, lighting, and cooling. That house will run year around on 12kW of solar and 60kWh of batteries and very little generator time, but it represents a massive lifestyle change that most people don't want to go through.
Snaketzu
New Member
For offgrid, look at different building designs than the typical "thermos bottle" sealed timber frame wall, even if it has a masonry veneer.
Look instead at some form of high thermal mass construction with a passive solar design (this just means it has lots of windows on the south and an overhang that limits sun penetration in the summer and maximizes it in the winter). If you can make the structure less energy intensive to heat and cool up front then everything gets easier... and cheaper.
Nobodybusiness
Solar Sponge.
My experience says little different.
Have a 400 amp service, all electric home.
Run pretty much whatever we need with 2 x Sol-Ark 15k in parallel which battery only provides 24kw max.
Haven’t changed lifestyle that much although I ask the wife to do laundry during the day ( which she ignores) , haven’t maxed out the inverters yet.
When doing laundry the washer, well pump, water heater and dryer are running plus AC or heat depending on season plus regular household loads.
Maybe if she tried to cook at the same time might be an issue but so far none..
jpwhit
Solar Enthusiast
Some of the comments in here about heating and efficiency make me laugh. With the current cost of propane, it's the most expensive way to heat a house currently. Natural gas is next. The latest air source heat pumps are the cheapest way to heat a house at the moment. Air source heat pumps are now efficient enough, even down to around -5F that it's pretty hard to justify the extra cost of ground source heat pumps.
But with that said, because PV productions is so low in the winter, heating with just a heat pump is pretty hard to do off-grid. If I were building the house you're proposing, I would install very efficient variable speed compressor heat pumps with propane furnace / air handler. When you have the electrical power available and especially when the outside temp is 32F or above, use the heat pump for heat. Otherwise, use the propane. There are plenty of thermostats that will automate that for you.
In terms of the actual heat pumps, I would most likely use either Trane XR20i or XR19 units.
If you don't care at all about heating costs, then just go straight propane, but the variable speed compressor units will also save you lots of power on AC and with the variable speed compressors, you won't have the compressor startup surge issues that often cause havoc with inverters. Also, with variable speed units, they will run almost all the time at a low speed without using a lot of wattage. So you may actually be able to reduce the total kw of inverter capacity needed.
But with that said, because PV productions is so low in the winter, heating with just a heat pump is pretty hard to do off-grid. If I were building the house you're proposing, I would install very efficient variable speed compressor heat pumps with propane furnace / air handler. When you have the electrical power available and especially when the outside temp is 32F or above, use the heat pump for heat. Otherwise, use the propane. There are plenty of thermostats that will automate that for you.
In terms of the actual heat pumps, I would most likely use either Trane XR20i or XR19 units.
If you don't care at all about heating costs, then just go straight propane, but the variable speed compressor units will also save you lots of power on AC and with the variable speed compressors, you won't have the compressor startup surge issues that often cause havoc with inverters. Also, with variable speed units, they will run almost all the time at a low speed without using a lot of wattage. So you may actually be able to reduce the total kw of inverter capacity needed.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
If you can make mini-splits work, they can be had to work down to like -20F or something. (As I was informed making the same argument about temps a while back). You can put them in without digging wells or trenches or .... If you have a problem the local HVAC guy can work on it, and it's easy to just swap it out. I've seen a lot of alternative heating and cooling systems, they get installed work just peachy for 10 years or so. The problem is after 10 years you have a problem, slab leak on your in-floor, bad well for the water to air, broken pipe, bad pumps, and now any savings you got is going to get eaten up with the cost of repairing the system. Replacing an air-to-air or mini-split component is trivial, and generally not that expensive. The ideas behind these other systems are interesting, but the larger and more complex you make a system, the greater the likelihood you will have a problem, and the more expensive it gets to fix.
Same reason I'd go all / mostly electric for the dwelling. In particular if you are renting it, and you are not next door, you need stuff you can send the average electrician or HVAC guy out to work on. It's simplification, no gas lines in the house, just wire it up. Have a problem? check the breaker panel, call the electrician. You need to make sure your outbuilding is configured so that a competent local electrician should be able to understand the basics of your setup, and you should have him out there for a walk-thru / understanding discussion before you rent anything.
The nice thing about rolling your own solar, is you never need to 'winterize' and shut down the property to save money. Just make sure you have Starnet or something, and keep an eye on things when no one is there.
Same reason I'd go all / mostly electric for the dwelling. In particular if you are renting it, and you are not next door, you need stuff you can send the average electrician or HVAC guy out to work on. It's simplification, no gas lines in the house, just wire it up. Have a problem? check the breaker panel, call the electrician. You need to make sure your outbuilding is configured so that a competent local electrician should be able to understand the basics of your setup, and you should have him out there for a walk-thru / understanding discussion before you rent anything.
The nice thing about rolling your own solar, is you never need to 'winterize' and shut down the property to save money. Just make sure you have Starnet or something, and keep an eye on things when no one is there.
Brucey
Solar Wizard
But aren’t you just running pass through with the grid?
It rents pretty well at $100 a night, as raw land. I am very confident that it will rent for a premium with a quality building on it.
As far as I can tell, I'd need 300 ft. for horizontal, and while i have 30 acres, it is almost all forest, and I can't/wouldn't clear a trench like that into the woods. I did look hard at it, though - it's a great way to heat/cool if you have the right set up.
Nobodybusiness
Solar Sponge.
D
Nobodybusiness
Solar Sponge.
Not currently.
Grid breaker has been off since March.
I turn it on in Mid November but not because of peak shaving but because I can’t generate enough solar from Mid-November- Mid January.
Never had an issue of maxing out inverters just a lack of solar..
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I've thought very hard about this as a solution, too. I like having an air handler, for circulation purposes. That's one of the major downsides to infloor heating, IMO: there is no circulation.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
I'm not and my situation is similar, 2x18KPV's. However if I was RENTING my place out and did not have the grid as a backup I would want three inverters (150A) just for the sake of "can't happen even if something weird happens". For example, the ability to operate in the event of a single inverter failure I can pull it out (that friendly electrician) and still run normally until I can get it replaced/repaired. And not change my lifestyle. The last thing you want to do is have to start managing your electrical load for a week because of a stupid equipment failure. Moreover paying a premium because you need to expedite delivery of the replacement gear, because you are crying and dying.
Fine and dandy if it's just me with a small vacation cabin in the woods, shut it all up, head home for a week. Not so great if the family is with you. Even worse if it's a primary residence, problematic if you are renting it out.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
They break too. My sister lived in Juneau for 10 years, friends with stories. The only way to do infloor is with multiple loops and zones with bypass points. It actually isn't that expensive to engineer, but still no guarantee. Bottom line is you have a water pipe under a slab, if it ruptures for any reason you can't easily get to it. It is generally pretty efficient, but you need ceiling fans to keep the air moving.
That’s the best way, but you can also coil them and be less than 100 feet horizontal.
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