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6000XP Cooling Fan Observations

Madcodger said:
Respectfully disagree. Idle consumption is definitely a concern.

A big problem is that there's still a good-sized gulf between the price demanded by higher-end suppliers such as Victron compared to lower priced units with great features but some build/quality issues, such as this fan issue with the EG4 units. I would gladly pay $25-$100 more per unit for the EG4 devices if this fan issue didn't exist. There's a market opportunity for EG4 to continue moving up market, addressing issues such as idle consumption and fan noise, at somewhat higher price points.
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I guess there’s a difference between concern or deal breaker, seems like people love to just add another panel or two to make up for the idle consumption.

For me it was a dealbreaker, for a true off grid small solar only install.

Agreed that there is always a fine of adding upscale features but at a cost, and the bean counters and price point will win.

At least there is a creative solution for these fans that just takes some DIY skill.
 
Can anyone let me know how much noise 6000XP produces if used only as SCC for 48V battery (with AC out not being used). With 2-2.5kW or PV input.
Thank you!
 
fmeili1 said:
Yes, it's completely not understandable why temperature controlled fans are not standard. I may understand why the EG4-6500EX does not have it because it's a pretty old design (based on the Voltronix Axpert Max MKS2-8000 series). But what it makes even more crazy is that even the new AIOs like EG4-6000XP, EG4-18kPV and EG4-12kPV do not implemented such a feature.

I think this should be standard these days. There are a lot of people who install the units in conditioned space and they don't get any benefit in terms of noise level without temperature controlled fan control.
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the eg4 12kPV is rated much quieter than the 18kpv and 6000xp so either they've improved the firmware or the actual hardware design.
 
Offgrid Jungle said:
Back on topic...here is the data for the fans in the EG4 6000XP:
View attachment 227720

...and here is a Noctua 120mm fan that closely matches the performance of the stock fan:View attachment 227722


Just 3D print this adapter and you are good to go as long as the cabinet is 5 inches wide:
View attachment 227723
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@Offgrid Jungle -- I really like this idea, and I'm in the process of printing 3 of these adapters in black PETG. I have one concern though that might be a showstopper for me. In general, I don't see how one fan can achieve similar static pressures at 1200 RPM as another can at 7000 RPM, I don't care how good your fin and bearing design is. ;)

Unless I'm missing something basic these NF-S12A fans don't have MORE static pressure, they actually have about 6% of the rating of the stock fans. Notice that the Noctua specs are in mm H20 while the stock fans are rated in Inch-H20. So if you convert to common units then the comparison is 1.19 mm H20 for the NF-12A versus 18.03 mm H20 for stock.

-A
 
Ambrotos said:
@Offgrid Jungle -- I really like this idea, and I'm in the process of printing 3 of these adapters in black PETG. I have one concern though that might be a showstopper for me. In general, I don't see how one fan can achieve similar static pressures at 1200 RPM as another can at 7000 RPM, I don't care how good your fin and bearing design is. ;)

Unless I'm missing something basic these NF-S12A fans don't have MORE static pressure, they actually have about 6% of the rating of the stock fans. Notice that the Noctua specs are in mm H20 while the stock fans are rated in Inch-H20. So if you convert to common units then the comparison is 1.19 mm H20 for the NF-12A versus 18.03 mm H20 for stock.

-A
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Good catch. The static capability is lower. It all depends on what the intake grill backpressure is...

I have also designed an adapter for the stock fan that provides a 2 1/2 hose fitting to route the air (and noise) away. Until I get my 6000XP installed and running, I can't verify that it will work either. Are you interested in my trying my files? I sent you a private message.
 
So, Is it possible these fans can ramp speed vs temperature? I haven't seen an answer about that yet. Maybe a future FW upgrade can unlock it. Like what is that fan 'slope' setting on the app.
 
kampto said:
So, Is it possible these fans can ramp speed vs temperature? I haven't seen an answer about that yet. Maybe a future FW upgrade can unlock it. Like what is that fan 'slope' setting on the app PWM fans can ramp up and down.
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PWM fans can be speed controlled if they are sent the pwm signal. It might be a hardware control board issue so don’t get your hopes up just yet.
 
@Offgrid Jungle I'm also still mid installation. My inverter and batteries are installed and running, but I'm still building my PV ground mount. My understanding is that the bigger noise culprit are the 2 fans dedicated to the PV charge controller, so I can't test those yet without PV input. But I'm game for a couple test prints to see if I can minimize noise, and I can at least test the impact on the single inverter fan as I can place loads on my batteries already.

@kampto It sounds dumb, but my understanding is that the fan curve of the 6000XP is not based on temperature, but on wattage. So irrespective of its current temperature, the two fans used for cooling the MPPT charge controllers will have a certain PWM duty cycle for PV input @ 1000 watts, and another duty cycle for PV input @ 2000 watts, etc. There's a similar fan curve based on the wattage load placed on the AC inverters.

A temperature based fan curve would make a hell of a lot more sense, but this is my understanding. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I would love to be mistaken here ;) .

-A
 
Ambrotos said:
@Offgrid Jungle I'm also still mid installation. My inverter and batteries are installed and running, but I'm still building my PV ground mount. My understanding is that the bigger noise culprit are the 2 fans dedicated to the PV charge controller, so I can't test those yet without PV input. But I'm game for a couple test prints to see if I can minimize noise, and I can at least test the impact on the single inverter fan as I can place loads on my batteries already.

@kampto It sounds dumb, but my understanding is that the fan curve of the 6000XP is not based on temperature, but on wattage. So irrespective of its current temperature, the two fans used for cooling the MPPT charge controllers will have a certain PWM duty cycle for PV input @ 1000 watts, and another duty cycle for PV input @ 2000 watts, etc. There's a similar fan curve based on the wattage load placed on the AC inverters.

A temperature based fan curve would make a hell of a lot more sense, but this is my understanding. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I would love to be mistaken here ;) .

-A
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In a way, more wattage = more inverter component temp. The real answer is to use different fans to quiet them down. At some load based on temp, they will still be squealing at 100%. I gather that the noise is objectionable at 100% fan speed. On 3D printers, we set the max speed to 80% without any degradation in performance. If you have the ability to control the fan steps according to wattage, perhaps a max setting of 80% would be a good test to try.
 
Just to confirm, it is the PV fan (bottom) that has no user control and will go full hair dryer mode above 2~3kW of PV.
The other two fans which ramp based on load DO have user controls. I set them to 50% (you have to select "new slope" for it to work) and they are much quieter and manage temps adequately even under moderate load. Do your own testing.

The lack of temperature-based PWM fan control is disappointing and something EG4 should really consider. At the very least, I hope there are temperature based alarms and shutdown logic in case a fan breaks or the inlet gets clogged or whatever.

I really like the 120mm adapter idea and a Noctua for the PV fan. But, given the difference in static pressure capability, I am a little wary of "testing" it on my house. I am curious about ducting the PV fan and if it will actually quiet it sufficiently without unduly impacting airflow.
 
@Offgrid Jungle agreed there's obviously a correlation between wattage and temperature. I guess my main complaint is that basing the fan curve on wattage alone is in my view a naive way to do it, and doesn't account for external factors like ambient temperature. I briefly toyed with the idea of custom building a thermistor-based PWM fan controller myself, similar to some of the projects I've seen on this forum to improve the 6500EX's fan problems, but honestly that's a bigger project than I have time for at this point. So I agree that the only real option we have to address the noise is the fan itself, or maybe some baffling.

On that note, while I think we agree that the NF-S12A have unacceptably low static pressure, what do you think about the NF-F12s? They're 3000RPM with a static pressure of 7.6 mmH20. About half that of the stock fans, but still within the same order of magnitude. They're also much louder than the S12s, but 43dBA is typical computer fan noise level, not jet engine.
 
Ambrotos said:
@Offgrid Jungle agreed there's obviously a correlation between wattage and temperature. I guess my main complaint is that basing the fan curve on wattage alone is in my view a naive way to do it, and doesn't account for external factors like ambient temperature. I briefly toyed with the idea of custom building a thermistor-based PWM fan controller myself, similar to some of the projects I've seen on this forum to improve the 6500EX's fan problems, but honestly that's a bigger project than I have time for at this point. So I agree that the only real option we have to address the noise is the fan itself, or maybe some baffling.

On that note, while I think we agree that the NF-S12A have unacceptably low static pressure, what do you think about the NF-F12s? They're 3000RPM with a static pressure of 7.6 mmH20. About half that of the stock fans, but still within the same order of magnitude. They're also much louder than the S12s, but 43dBA is typical computer fan noise level, not jet engine.
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Yes, it has a higher static capability. Until we test what the actual static resistance is, we won't know. My first test will be my "silencer" design for the stock fan.



1720975483042.png
 
Sounds good. I'd appreciate it if you could share your findings here as your testing progresses. Maybe by the time I'm ready you'll be a revision or two further along.

Once I finish getting my PV installed, I also plan to do some testing. One thing I'd like to do is hook up a few strategically placed temperature probes, and monitor temperatures at various wattage levels, then replace the stock fans with the NF-F12s and compare temps at those same levels.

-A
 
Brucey said:
Wouldn't be surprised if a potential 8000XP does a better job
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How many revisions and product lines do they when they could have done it right from the get go?

I guess they wouldn’t need their “upgrade and buy back programs” unless they keep offering new products that entices you to keep buying.
 
Last edited:
Given that Voltronic was the OEM for the 6500EX, and Luxpower is the OEM for the 6000XP, I don't imagine there's a strong "feedback loop" through-line in the design process.

Not to say there aren't improvements; there are. My point is just that it's not like these products are iterative revisions on a common platform. The rebranding effort is basically starting from scratch each time, and I have to imagine that there's a limit to how much each OEM will tweak their design for you before the costs just don't make sense for them anymore. Still... maybe a temperature-based fan curve needs to be in the "must have" column for the next product ;)

-A
 
Offgrid Jungle said:
Yes, it has a higher static capability. Until we test what the actual static resistance is, we won't know. My first test will be my "silencer" design for the stock fan.
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Keen to see what you come up with.

Ambrotos said:
Not to say there aren't improvements; there are. My point is just that it's not like these products are iterative revisions on a common platform. The rebranding effort is basically starting from scratch each time, and I have to imagine that there's a limit to how much each OEM will tweak their design for you before the costs just don't make sense for them anymore. Still... maybe a temperature-based fan curve needs to be in the "must have" column for the next product ;)
Click to expand...

If the PV fan is controlled similarly to the other two, there may be settings for "Fan 3 Max %" and "Fan Speed Slope 3" that just aren't exposed in the UI. Still not temperature-based PWM but I'll take it if it's there.

My 3rd fan exhaust is almost always cool to slightly warm air coming out during peak PV.
 
@SunBandit I suspect you may have it backwards... I believe fans 1 and 2 are for the PV charge controller, and fan 3 is for the inverter. During "peak PV", are your AC loads still relatively light? If so, that might explain why fan 3's exhaust remains cool. Does fan 3 exhaust heat up if you put 3 or 4 kW of AC load on your inverter?

-A
 
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