diy solar

diy solar

Electric heater calculations

How much heat are they really generating? I guess I'll go ahead and do that since I'm sure I have enough scrap plywood and insulation laying around.
Not much, but with a well insulated battery box you only need a small amount of heat to keep the batteries from freezing.

To give a ballpark number, assuming an internal resistance of 0.020 Ohm and a 10 amp load, that would be 2 watts.

You could measure your batteries internal resistance and your typical load and calculate how much your batteries will generate.

Mars
 
Sorry, its all new to me.
Taint nothing to be sorry for, I often fumble around when trying to figure out the same stuff. For example, if an invertor draws ten amps DC, then how many amps AC can it produce? Calgon, take me away!
 
Sorry, its all new to me.
Speaking of conundrums, I had two 12 volt, 100 watt panels in parralel producing 16 amps and when I connected the same two panels in series to make 24 volts, it cut the amperage down to 8 amps, yet, less amperage is somehow supposed to be more amperage. I'm overthinking this aren't I? I have a headache now. I'm going to lay down.
 
If it's JUST batteries, a lot of insulation in a box, and a heating pad under the batteries (heat rises).
An insulated box captures charge/discharge heat you don't have to pay for.
Just to be that guy..,

HEAT does NOT rise.

Hot air rises.

HEAT travels from coldest to warmest through conduction... convection the heated air gets pushed up by the denser colder air falling under it. Radiant heat radiates in all directions regardless of gravity...
 
Just to be that guy..,

HEAT does NOT rise.

Hot air rises.

HEAT travels from coldest to warmest through conduction... convection the heated air gets pushed up by the denser colder air falling under it. Radiant heat radiates in all directions regardless of gravity...

This sparks a question. Would the warmest part of a battery be towards the top, or would the heat be evenly distributed?
 
Speaking of conundrums, I had two 12 volt, 100 watt panels in parralel producing 16 amps and when I connected the same two panels in series to make 24 volts, it cut the amperage down to 8 amps, yet, less amperage is somehow supposed to be more amperage. I'm overthinking this aren't I? I have a headache now. I'm going to lay down.

No, thats correct. Parallel keep the voltage the same and doubles the amps (assuming 2 batteries). Series doubles the voltage and keeps the amperage the same.
 
... it cut the amperage down to 8 amps, yet, less amperage is somehow supposed to be more amperage. I'm overthinking this aren't I? I have a headache now. I'm going to lay down.

It's all about watts. Watts is watts is watt. Watts are a unit of power. We can do things with power (watts), like run a beer fridge. We don't power anything just with volts, or just with amps. We power things with watts. You need both amps (current) and volts (like electrical pressure or electrical force or potential) to give you watts.

So, in your two100W panel example, you have a total of 200W of power from the panels, series or parallel, doesn't matter.
- two 12V 100W panels in parallel, were producing 16A. 12V x 16A = 192W
- Same two 12V panels in series, were producing 8A. 24V x 8A = 192W
It's the same amount of power.

Why do people often say 24V is better? Because of voltage drop and lower currents are easier to deal with. Regardless of voltage, you can use a smaller wire to carry 8A vs 16A. You need smaller connectors and smaller switches and smaller fuses. So the 24V ~200W example can get by with smaller (cheaper, lighter) wire, fuses, breakers, switches, and connections.

How can voltage drop make a 24V better than 12V? In a real systems your panel are producing 12V x 16A = 192W . But that power runs over some wires to your battery. On the battery end of the wire, you get 11.5V x 16A = 184W. You had a 0.5V drop over the length of the wire. That is just lost (as heat). In the 24V system you still lose 0.5V. But, the power the at the battery is now 23.5V x 8A = 188W. You end up losing less to heat than you do with a 12V system, given the same wire.
 
Last edited:
It's all about watts. Watts is watts is watt. Watts are a unit of power. We can do things with power (watts), like run a beer fridge. We don't power anything just with volts, or just with amps. We power things with watts. You need both amps (current) and volts (like electrical pressure or electrical force or potential) to give you watts.

So, in your two100W panel example, you have a total of 200W of power from the panels, series or parallel, doesn't matter.
- two 12V 100W panels in parallel, were producing 16A. 12V x 16A = 192W
- Same two 12V panels in series, were producing 8A. 24V x 8A = 192W
It's the same amount of power.

Why do people often say 24V is better? Because of voltage drop and lower currents are easier to deal with. Regardless of voltage, you can use a smaller wire to carry 8A vs 16A. You need smaller connectors and smaller switches and smaller fuses. So the 24V ~200W example can get by with smaller (cheaper, lighter) wire, fuses, breakers, switches, and connections.

How can voltage drop make a 24V better than 12V? In a real systems your panel are producing 12V x 16A = 192W . But that power runs over some wires to your battery. On the battery end of the wire, you get 11.5V x 16A = 184W. You had a 0.5V drop over the length of the wire. That is just lost (as heat). In the 24V system you still lose 0.5V. But, the power the at the battery is now 23.5V x 8A = 188W. You end up losing less to heat than you do with a 12V system, given the same wire.
Absolutely superb answer krby, well thought out and communicated. Thank you for taking the time to be so thorough.
 
And with all the Bru hah hah about volts and amps, I knew that watts we're good for something!
It's all about watts. Watts is watts is watt. Watts are a unit of power. We can do things with power (watts), like run a beer fridge. We don't power anything just with volts, or just with amps. We power things with watts. You need both amps (current) and volts (like electrical pressure or electrical force or potential) to give you watts.

So, in your two100W panel example, you have a total of 200W of power from the panels, series or parallel, doesn't matter.
- two 12V 100W panels in parallel, were producing 16A. 12V x 16A = 192W
- Same two 12V panels in series, were producing 8A. 24V x 8A = 192W
It's the same amount of power.

Why do people often say 24V is better? Because of voltage drop and lower currents are easier to deal with. Regardless of voltage, you can use a smaller wire to carry 8A vs 16A. You need smaller connectors and smaller switches and smaller fuses. So the 24V ~200W example can get by with smaller (cheaper, lighter) wire, fuses, breakers, switches, and connections.

How can voltage drop make a 24V better than 12V? In a real systems your panel are producing 12V x 16A = 192W . But that power runs over some wires to your battery. On the battery end of the wire, you get 11.5V x 16A = 184W. You had a 0.5V drop over the length of the wire. That is just lost (as heat). In the 24V system you still lose 0.5V. But, the power the at the battery is now 23.5V x 8A = 188W. You end up losing less to heat than you do with a 12V system, given the same wire.
 
Just to be that guy..,

HEAT does NOT rise.

Hot air rises.

HEAT travels from coldest to warmest through conduction... convection the heated air gets pushed up by the denser colder air falling under it. Radiant heat radiates in all directions regardless of gravity...
I'm learning so much tonight my heads going to explode. I'm not feeling well now, I have a case of the tmi's ... I'm going to lay down
 
Just to be that guy..,

HEAT does NOT rise.

Hot air rises.

HEAT travels from coldest to warmest through conduction... convection the heated air gets pushed up by the denser colder air falling under it. Radiant heat radiates in all directions regardless of gravity...

I guess if you want to go there...

Heat is radiation of energy, energy differentials trying to disburse and equalize.
Since we live on planet Earth, with a heavy gas atmosphere, all heat radiates, hits atmosphere which it heats (molecular excitation), and it rises as hot atmosphere.

The excited atmosphere, as a whole, tries to expand, making for a less dense mass, and it rises.
From gasses to low viscosity liquids.
To see the expansion/density changes, watch a 'Lava Lamp'.

Induction heating happens in solids.

I'm still wondering what this has to do with telling someone to throw a heating pad under batteries to keep them warm in an insulated box?
 
I guess if you want to go there...

Heat is radiation of energy, energy differentials trying to disburse and equalize.
Since we live on planet Earth, with a heavy gas atmosphere, all heat radiates, hits atmosphere which it heats (molecular excitation), and it rises as hot atmosphere.

The excited atmosphere, as a whole, tries to expand, making for a less dense mass, and it rises.
From gasses to low viscosity liquids.
To see the expansion/density changes, watch a 'Lava Lamp'.

Induction heating happens in solids.

I'm still wondering what this has to do with telling someone to throw a heating pad under batteries to keep them warm in an insulated box?
Damn you're smart! LOL
 
I guess if you want to go there...

Heat is radiation of energy, energy differentials trying to disburse and equalize.
Since we live on planet Earth, with a heavy gas atmosphere, all heat radiates, hits atmosphere which it heats (molecular excitation), and it rises as hot atmosphere.

The excited atmosphere, as a whole, tries to expand, making for a less dense mass, and it rises.
From gasses to low viscosity liquids.
To see the expansion/density changes, watch a 'Lava Lamp'.

Induction heating happens in solids.

I'm still wondering what this has to do with telling someone to throw a heating pad under batteries to keep them warm in an insulated box?
Oh, it’s just a thing that gets to me as an HVAC tech. Everyone says heat rises. It doesn’t. Warm air gets pushed up by denser cold air.
Cold air does sink.

In an insulated box, assuming the batteries do not touch the sides of the box, only the bottom would pull the majority of the heat from the battery. That is the primary reason for placing the heating pad on the bottom.
 
Oh, it’s just a thing that gets to me as an HVAC tech. Everyone says heat rises. It doesn’t. Warm air gets pushed up by denser cold air.
Cold air does sink.

In an insulated box, assuming the batteries do not touch the sides of the box, only the bottom would pull the majority of the heat from the battery. That is the primary reason for placing the heating pad on the bottom.

I'm planning a box that encapsulates the batteries completely, 3/4" plywood lined with the blue styrofoam insulation. I'll make the top and sides one piece that lifts off the bottom piece. I'll leave about an inch of airspace at the top for terminals. Sound reasonable?
 
I'm planning a box that encapsulates the batteries completely, 3/4" plywood lined with the blue styrofoam insulation. I'll make the top and sides one piece that lifts off the bottom piece. I'll leave about an inch of airspace at the top for terminals. Sound reasonable?
I was going to ask about insulation - what are the best type(s) for battery boxes?
 
Me asked Myself tersely at breakfast, "If the movement of molecules, heated or otherwise, is in no way affected by the magnetic pull of gravity, then, what happens to heated molecular structures of both the gaseous and solid variety inside of a space capsule within the vacuum of space, hmmm Myself"? Myself, stopping mid crunch, peered above the box top of the life cereal box he appeared to be intently reading in his usual, attempt in vain to avoid conversation with Me at breakfast and with milk drizzling from the corners of his full mouth, sarcasticsly retorted, "I don't know I'm not a heatologist, now stop talking to yourself people are going to think your larky, Me". Me replied, "I'm not talking to Myself". Myself replied, "oh really ..."?
 
I am thinking on how to setup my barn for batteries, and I have a steel warehouse set of shelving... the old lead acid batteries are still sitting on it... I gotta rip all that out.
Foam board has decent Rvalue... and is pretty simple to build with.
 
I'm planning a box that encapsulates the batteries completely, 3/4" plywood lined with the blue styrofoam insulation. I'll make the top and sides one piece that lifts off the bottom piece. I'll leave about an inch of airspace at the top for terminals. Sound reasonable?

That will do, make it slightly oversize, like 1/4 inch, so the corners/joints fit tightly together.
When I started, it was insulating board & duct tape.
 
I was going to ask about insulation - what are the best type(s) for battery boxes?

Since blue board is so rigid and easy to work with, I would think that's probably best. Maybe some radiant barrier for good measure.
 
Me asked Myself tersely at breakfast, "If the movement of molecules, heated or otherwise, is in no way affected by the magnetic pull of gravity, then, what happens to heated molecular structures of both the gaseous and solid variety inside of a space capsule within the vacuum of space, hmmm Myself"? Myself, stopping mid crunch, peered above the box top of the life cereal box he appeared to be intently reading in his usual, attempt in vain to avoid conversation with Me at breakfast and with milk drizzling from the corners of his full mouth, sarcasticsly retorted, "I don't know I'm not a heatologist, now stop talking to yourself people are going to think your larky, Me". Me replied, "I'm not talking to Myself". Myself replied, "oh really ..."?

Anything with mass is affected by gravity.
 
Oh, it’s just a thing that gets to me as an HVAC tech. Everyone says heat rises. It doesn’t. Warm air gets pushed up by denser cold air.
Cold air does sink.

HVAC applications, functionally right.

Adding energy (heat) excited molecules, the orbits expand pushing each other apart, spacing apart.
Any mass becomes larger, expands, and that mass is less dense because it didn't gain 'Weight' (mass), but grew larger. Less dense by definition.

Heat expands metal, heat expands liquids, heat expands gasses, anything with mass.
A lava lamp works because the wax expands more and becomes less dense than the oil.
Mercury expands at a steady rate, so it's used for thermometers.

A warm 'Bubble' or column of air rises because it's less dense than the cooler air around it.
The less dense (heated) area rises in the ambient air column,
Physics, nothing much happens until something moves,
And the warmer rises (movement) and the cooler fills in underneath.

Cooler air does 'Sink', anyone that opened a fridge door in bare feet knows that.
BUT,
In that case, the 'Movement' is colder, denser air falling in the air column, being displaced from above with warmer room air.

Nature hates an imbalance and always tries to equalize.

In an insulated box, assuming the batteries do not touch the sides of the box, only the bottom would pull the majority of the heat from the battery. That is the primary reason for placing the heating pad on the bottom.

That might be a misspeak,
By that line of thinking, insulation UNDER batteries would keep cold from entering batteries entirely.
We all know that batteries would go ahead & radiate heat into the room...

Insulation all the way around would slow down the losses, but if warm air can escape, it's going to be REPLACED by cold air.
Seal up the cracks in the insulation, particularly the top since warm air is less dense and trying to rise,
The top is more effective as the 'Box', and the bottom as the 'Lid' will trap more heat.

I say 'Trap Heat', keep that warm air from rising and the inverted box makes the box fill with warm air before it reached the 'Lid' crack at the bottom.
 
Anything with mass is affected by gravity.

Correct.
Even light, light bends in gravity fields.

Several things are stronger than gravity, magnetism is one thing...
While a paper clip lays on the floor under the influence of gravity, a magnet will snatch it right up off the floor.

Not in free fall of orbit...

'Orbit', by definition, means something (Gravity) is curving the trajectory.

Free FALL indicates falling in a gravity field.
When forward motion compensated for loss of altitude it's considered a 'Stable' orbit,
Thrust & inertia...

Physics isn't my strong point, but I did watch the science channel in a Holiday Inn Express once ;)
 
Last edited:
HVAC applications, functionally right.

Adding energy (heat) excited molecules, the orbits expand pushing each other apart, spacing apart.
Any mass becomes larger, expands, and that mass is less dense because it didn't gain 'Weight' (mass), but grew larger. Less dense by definition.

Heat expands metal, heat expands liquids, heat expands gasses, anything with mass.
A lava lamp works because the wax expands more and becomes less dense than the oil.
Mercury expands at a steady rate, so it's used for thermometers.

A warm 'Bubble' or column of air rises because it's less dense than the cooler air around it.
The less dense (heated) area rises in the ambient air column,
Physics, nothing much happens until something moves,
And the warmer rises (movement) and the cooler fills in underneath.

Cooler air does 'Sink', anyone that opened a fridge door in bare feet knows that.
BUT,
In that case, the 'Movement' is colder, denser air falling in the air column, being displaced from above with warmer room air.

Nature hates an imbalance and always tries to equalize.



That might be a misspeak,
By that line of thinking, insulation UNDER batteries would keep cold from entering batteries entirely.
We all know that batteries would go ahead & radiate heat into the room...

Insulation all the way around would slow down the losses, but if warm air can escape, it's going to be REPLACED by cold air.
Seal up the cracks in the insulation, particularly the top since warm air is less dense and trying to rise,
The top is more effective as the 'Box', and the bottom as the 'Lid' will trap more heat.

I say 'Trap Heat', keep that warm air from rising and the inverted box makes the box fill with warm air before it reached the 'Lid' crack at the bottom.
Why would ANY amount of insulation keep heat from entering batteries?
Insulation only slows the heat transfer. An air cushion around batteries in addition to the insulation requires two different heat transfer methods, convection and conduction.
The batteries in direct contact with the floor insulation transfers heat quicker from the batteries into the cold environment.
A heater there offsets this transfer with added heat, and also adds heat to the airspace surrounding the batteries.
No?

Ald air gaps in the insulation are absolutely the big heat loss, it's why yeti style coolers are so great at keeping ice cold... a sealed insulation system.
 

diy solar

diy solar
Back
Top