to crimp or not to crimp

Hang on a minute while I put on my hip waders before I tread into this swamp...

Batvette said:

Go to the pdf and look at the infrared images. I will add if your battery terminals hit 370 degrees f, youve got bigger problems than melting solder.

The welding operations you speak of arent running that current through batteries.

Click to expand...

Both true statements.

Where I slightly disagree with you is with this statement:

It eliminates the possibility of corrosion between the terminal and wire. And done properly never comes apart.

Click to expand...

A properly crimped connection, using a closed end lug, with heat shrink tubing (with adhesive), will also prevent corrosion. A solid cold weld joint isn't coming apart.

There are numerous posts here on the forum and out there on the Internet that suggest that soldering terminal ends in mobile environments, or those environments where vibration is possible, are not acceptable.

HRTKD said:

Hang on a minute while I put on my hip waders before I tread into this swamp...



Both true statements.

Where I slightly disagree with you is with this statement:


A properly crimped connection, using a closed end lug, with heat shrink tubing (with adhesive), will also prevent corrosion. A solid cold weld joint isn't coming apart.

There are numerous posts here on the forum and out there on the Internet that suggest that soldering terminal ends in mobile environments, or those environments where vibration is possible, are not acceptable.

Click to expand...

From what I understand the concerns involve a loss of flexibility in the cable which can be avoided by preventing solder creep up the cable.
As a US Navy avionics tech in an active deployed fighter squadron, (AQ3, FITRON twenty one, fire control shop, CV-43 1979-83) my pre fleet training(VF-171 FRAMP, NAS Oceana) involved compact wire bundle repair school which included a week of soldering certifications. Every connector in every plug on an F-4 Phantom is soldered, as was every repair I did on them. After leaving the service I did 12volt installs for hobby and a living for decades and still do, and had IASCA and USAC (autosound competition) installation judging credentials.
The idea that soldering is "unacceptable" is not one I have heard but maybe NASA didnt get that email.
I wont deny its a debated subject, but those against it usually dont know how. Or from the manufacturers end they dont like the additional cost or employee health risk from lead.
As I said I speak from experience its good enough for all military aircraft, thats enough for me.
(all the acronym gibberish is what veterans offer each other to out pretenders)
But thanks for the reply. Youre not entirely wrong, there are plenty of applications across many industries where crimp only is the norm. Once soldering is second nature theres no reason not to if you want foolproof.

I will add that a lot of the internet discussions probably are motivated by how intimidating the process appears. Frequently the task involves replacing the terminal at the battery that goes to the starter, you dont have a lot of slack to work with. If I was offering a method that did NOT involve a large propane torch less than a foot from a lead acid battery gassing hydrogen, it would be easy for you to agree with me that this risky way was not the way to go.

I'll admit that I'm a bit biased on the subject. My soldering skills absolutely SUCK. When it comes to plumbing, I'll take a Shark Bite fitting any day over soldering a joint. Consequently, with wiring, if I don't have to solder, that's great!

Like anything on the Internet, it's easy to find any number of sites/pages that back up your bias. I think NASA was one of those sites that I went off of.

I’ve been soldering for 50 years but as stated earlier in solar applications I’ve gone to crimping and will never go back.

Cold welding and full flexibility can’t be beat. I can hang my body weight off a good crimp on large enough wire no problem.

I still get to melt some solder in radio applications though ?.

A very good article on crimp connectors, including some opinion why not to solder. Written by an expert on the subject as it pertains to the marine industry.

HRTKD said:

I'll admit that I'm a bit biased on the subject. My soldering skills absolutely SUCK. When it comes to plumbing, I'll take a Shark Bite fitting any day over soldering a joint. Consequently, with wiring, if I don't have to solder, that's great!

Like anything on the Internet, it's easy to find any number of sites/pages that back up your bias. I think NASA was one of those sites that I went off of.

Click to expand...

It's not widely known but NASA will accept from its contractors a plain old western union splice.
Which done properly takes more time than it does for me to plug in an iron and wait for it to warm up... but you cant pull it apart.
In the early 80s the gubmint decided all of us techs were best served with these new isotip battery soldering irons. Hot off the charger they would join 20 awg conductors like once, then the ni cad batteries faded quick.
So at least on the flight line at miramar, we used bic lighters to get the job done. (On deck on the ship youd be in a world of hurt with a lighter- see USS Forrestal disaster)

wholybee said:

A very good article on crimp connectors, including some opinion why not to solder. Written by an expert on the subject as it pertains to the marine industry.

Marine Wire Termination - Marine How To

Marine Wire Termination - Tools of the Trade MHT Recommended Tools: The products below are our top picks for crimp tools. RecommendationsI include; PRO GRADE, MARINE GRADE, & PENNY SAVER GRADE. Every tool recommended BELOW, we have tested here.

marinehowto.com

Click to expand...

Interesting, thanks for that.
Couple of takeaways, conceding I'm finding what I can to stubbornly support my position.
Hes an expert alright, noting he has $7800 in tools on the wall and probably charges his customers $10 a piece for the fancy specialized terminals they fit.
That kind of hardware does crimp beautifully, but I doubt anyone here uses that or has access to tools like that.
I have the $30 hammer crimper for ~1/0, a $60 ratcheting crimper for 2awg-10awg, and a couple of klein and g&b staking crimpers. None of that makes a crimp like he is doing, nor am I using the high dollat terminals he uses.
Go back in the thread and see the image of a pair of ring terminals.
The expert certainly isnt using these.
Finally I saw him mention what i did earlier about the loss of flexibility when soldering. Hes right, but its avoidable though Ive never seen that be an issue if the cable is properly routed and secured. Its weird that he rested on a guideline from AMP.
Im pretty sure AMPs bigger connectors (like 28+ pins) like canon and other mfrs has a strain relief clamp way up the conductors.
And takes a several hundred dollar tool to crimp its exhorbitantly priced terminals.
Not what Ill be working with here, but thanks for the reality check that theres a whole nother world out there.

Hopefully we can agree to disagree after 34 posts ?.

However, if anyone wants to read another 81 posts on the subject see here:

JoeHam said:

Hopefully we can agree to disagree after 34 posts ?.

However, if anyone wants to read another 81 posts on the subject see here:

To solder or not to solder?

EDITED: I have been told by different people not to solder cable lugs. I just was shown by a forum member that I should tin my connections after crimping. I know absolutely nothing about the subject. I would like to hear everyone's opinion that knows. Thanks ahead of time.

diysolarforum.com

Click to expand...

Yeah, we're pretty much rehashing that thread.

Nope, we're not insane. I'm pretty sure that even with the same inputs we'll have a different result in this thread.

Batvette said:

Okay so youre saying that because welding can heat up cables enough to melt solder, it shouldnt be used for solar battery storage.
Anyone using their solar systems for welding may find that helpful.
The rest of us, well here is what Trojan Battery says about it.

https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/WP_BatteryCableGuide_0512.pdf

which states

"It is therefore highly recommended
that connectors not only be mechanically crimped
but also soldered to the cable’s end."

Go to the pdf and look at the infrared images. I will add if your battery terminals hit 370 degrees f, youve got bigger problems than melting solder.

The welding operations you speak of arent running that current through batteries.

Click to expand...

I think you took it wrong. No battery will ever stand the abuse a welder can dish out. The discussion I thought was about setscrew vs crimp. Im all for crimp. I have tried a bunch of stuff, and if air arcing out a weld and you feel cable getting hot, throw the stinger in a water bucket.
I would not use a setscrew lug unless forced to by an inspector. A normal 400 amp rod holder always comes with a setscrew and they can get really hot. So I think setscrew lugs are bad.

Properly done, a firm 20 ton hydraulic crimp with the right size lug for the wire, will be "gas tight", and fuse/weld all the layers together.
This according to NASA power coupling specs and sectional microscopy images.

Soldered connections have the risk of flux bubbles restricting copper contact, solder wicking up into the wire, creating a hard fulcrum bend point that will fail underneath the pristine insulation above it.

My friend with an early EV, had troubles with the lead battery terminals melting off of the battery, when driving uphill. Just what you need in your battery box, loose wires with molten solder splashing around.

Remember - solar power runs lots of amps for hours at a time, and can cause a lot of heating of normally reliable components. That's when the trouble starts.

JoeHam said:

Hopefully we can agree to disagree after 34 posts ?.

However, if anyone wants to read another 81 posts on the subject see here:

To solder or not to solder?

EDITED: I have been told by different people not to solder cable lugs. I just was shown by a forum member that I should tin my connections after crimping. I know absolutely nothing about the subject. I would like to hear everyone's opinion that knows. Thanks ahead of time.

diysolarforum.com

Click to expand...

First 3 replies are all I had to read, totally agree with them.
In a nutshell, there is no absolute but either method must be done right or there are compromises.
IMO the solder method depends less on the quality of the tools and parts and more on the quality of execution.
Anyone agree?

mike95490 said:

Properly done, a firm 20 ton hydraulic crimp with the right size lug for the wire, will be "gas tight", and fuse/weld all the layers together.
This according to NASA power coupling specs and sectional microscopy images.

Soldered connections have the risk of flux bubbles restricting copper contact, solder wicking up into the wire, creating a hard fulcrum bend point that will fail underneath the pristine insulation above it.

My friend with an early EV, had troubles with the lead battery terminals melting off of the battery, when driving uphill. Just what you need in your battery box, loose wires with molten solder splashing around.

Remember - solar power runs lots of amps for hours at a time, and can cause a lot of heating of normally reliable components. That's when the trouble starts.

Click to expand...

Can I borrow yours? Ive got enough $ in this project already! ?

Batvette said:

Can I borrow yours? Ive got enough $ in this project already! ?

Click to expand...

I'm in Nor Calif. Some decent $80 ones on flea bay. I had to crimp about 20, OO cables, only safe way to do it.

fine strand wire doesn't work best for set screw connection.. wish I would have got these

I used ferrules in my PV/LiFePO4 system. I don't think I have any bare stranded wire terminations. It made for better connections, in my limited experience opinion.

GSXR1000 said:

fine strand wire doesn't work best for set screw connection.. wish I would have got these
View attachment 48808

Click to expand...

GSXR1000 said:

fine strand wire doesn't work best for set screw connection.. wish I would have got these
View attachment 48808

Click to expand...

Dissimilar metallurgical corrosion risk? Or is that only with the introduction of a ferrous material?

Batvette said:

Dissimilar metallurgical corrosion risk? Or is that only with the introduction of a ferrous material?

Click to expand...

well if that is an issue.. the lugs with set screws are not copper (can't be)

I am sure you could find copper ferrule

mike95490 said:

I'm in Nor Calif. Some decent $80 ones on flea bay. I had to crimp about 20, OO cables, only safe way to do it.

Click to expand...

In the past I have had decent results crimping 2/0 up to 4awg with this weird hunk of tool steel, a BFH, large slotted screwdriver, and vise grips. It serves as an anvil and I use the 1/4-20 holes to hold the eye terminal in place, the vise grips to squeeze the sides while striking the screwdriver held longitudely with the BFH several times. When the center is sufficiently deep I squeeze it with the vise grips both from the top and sides again. From the end it looks like an m with an understrike.

Batvette said:

From what I understand the concerns involve a loss of flexibility in the cable which can be avoided by preventing solder creep up the cable.
As a US Navy avionics tech in an active deployed fighter squadron, (AQ3, FITRON twenty one, fire control shop, CV-43 1979-83) my pre fleet training(VF-171 FRAMP, NAS Oceana) involved compact wire bundle repair school which included a week of soldering certifications. Every connector in every plug on an F-4 Phantom is soldered, as was every repair I did on them. After leaving the service I did 12volt installs for hobby and a living for decades and still do, and had IASCA and USAC (autosound competition) installation judging credentials.
The idea that soldering is "unacceptable" is not one I have heard but maybe NASA didnt get that email.
I wont deny its a debated subject, but those against it usually dont know how. Or from the manufacturers end they dont like the additional cost or employee health risk from lead.
As I said I speak from experience its good enough for all military aircraft, thats enough for me.
(all the acronym gibberish is what veterans offer each other to out pretenders)
But thanks for the reply. Youre not entirely wrong, there are plenty of applications across many industries where crimp only is the norm. Once soldering is second nature theres no reason not to if you want foolproof.

Click to expand...

It's a good comparison to make. Yeah, not many people here are going to use the most expensive crimp tools along with the best terminals. But probably fewer know how to make a really good solder connection. And a good soldering station is as expensive as a good crimper. Someone mentioned military training classes and working on an F-4. Apples to apples, you need to compare that soldering work to the best crimping work. Making the best possible crimp connection is a lot more in reach to most people than that level of soldering skill.

I use the connectors recommended in that article. They are not that expensive. They are NOT sold for $5 for a bag of 100, but I don't need 100 of them, I need 5 of them. And to compare the $5 bag of 100 to soldering, yeah, the crimp connection with that connector will suck, and it will suck even worse with the $5 crimper from an auto parts store. A good, or even mediocre, solder connection will be better than those.

Pair the high quality connectors with a decent crimp tool that costs less then a good solder station, and you will have an excellent connection, much better than the mess of a soldering job that is typical, and as good as the best solder connections. If you used to solder wires on an F-4, I trust your skills are good enough to solder instead of crimping. But even if they are as good as a good crimp, they will be equal, not better.