diy solar

diy solar

Cell self balancing in parallel

Solarfun4jim

Solar seduced :-)
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
743
Location
Sunny Scotland
What happens if you parallel two identical cells but with different unmatched voltages?
How close should the voltages be before putting two cells in parallel?
Can a really high voltage cell be added to a balanced bank of much lower voltage paralleled cells(say a 7P config), for example, 7P cells in balance at 3.28v and another added to it which measures say 3.45v...what would be the outcome?

So many questions when you are just learning this stuff and hoping to tap the experience of the battle scarred experts. ;-))
 
Current would flow from the higher voltage cell to the lower voltage cells until they equalise. How much current would depend on the internal resistance of the cells. It could be wire melting, cell bursting, blow things up level. It could be whimper not even notice level.

Total power transferred (watt hours) would come down to the charge / voltage curve of the cells. With cells that have a very flat charge / voltage curve such as lithium based cells, that could be a lot of power for a large cell. Without knowing the cell chemistry, ie what voltages we can expect at what state of charge, it's all a bit up in the air so there could equally be very little total power transferred.
 
Last edited:
Thanks gnubie
Ok, changing train of thought, could the item listed below, be used to charge each individual lifepo4 cell to exactly 3.65v, seperately, before being paralleled together to top balance?
 
You'd really want a power supply that you can limit the current and voltage. If you have the time you could just hook up a reasonable load to the higher voltage cell and draw it down to where the other cells are.

What sort of cells do you have? You can hit google for typical state of charge graphs for generic cells and often even get the exact graph for a cell if you know who made it. That'd show you what sort of charge difference the voltages indicate and you could use the internal resistance in the datasheet to work out how much current would flow.
 
What happens if you parallel two identical cells but with different unmatched voltages?
How close should the voltages be before putting two cells in parallel?
Can a really high voltage cell be added to a balanced bank of much lower voltage paralleled cells(say a 7P config), for example, 7P cells in balance at 3.28v and another added to it which measures say 3.45v...what would be the outcome?

So many questions when you are just learning this stuff and hoping to tap the experience of the battle scarred experts. ;-))
The key thing to remember when adding a cell in parallel (or battery in a bank) is the impact at the top and bottom end of the ranges when charging and discharging. So, if your pack is dedicated to balancing, you can control all that. The issue arises when you throw one in a currently cycled pack "in production", where you no longer have the ability to control it to achieve balance, and are just blindly hoping it all works out. You have a good shot in that scenario it will all work out, but are taking a little bit of risk when it hits the top or bottom end of the pack charge cycle.

Assuming you can dedicate the pack/bank to balancing and have plenty of time, what I do for my bank is cycle with a very small load. I chose to stay near the top of the range, because my load was so tiny compared to the size of the bank. I also charged each to a similar V before putting in parallel to speed things up. I periodically let it rest by turning the load off. The only reason I used any load was to just get the electron blood flowing a little bit. Eventually, I removed the load and only went back and forth between rest and a little charging until they reached an optimal initial SoC at rest (13.6V with LiFePO4, which will eventually drop to 13.3xV at rest).

The risk if they are off and then you charge to full SoC is that you can overcharge the higher outlier. And, vice-a-versa, if one is lower voltage than the rest of the pack, and you discharge the pack to a low SoC, you risk the outlier entering damaging territory below it's ideal bottom.

In between, charging and discharging, or just keeping idle, will lead them to become balanced, presuming all other things being equal. But, if they have very different internal resistances, different self-discharge rates, etc,... then extreme cycling can actually make it worse. In other words, balancing will be more optimal with lower ranges of cycling. This is why we say that when we top balance, our goal is to keep it in the upper part of the range for awhile, because it needs time up there to really level out. Just going to 100% SoC then quickly back down will not achieve top balancing.

To be honest, the biggest risk with parallel is a bad cell or battery. They can drain the rest of the cells bringing them down to an unhealthy SoC. This is why it is more important to identify the capacity, internal resistance and self-discharge rates of cells before adding them to a pack. Self-discharge rate is the most important because if there is a problem -- typically an internal short -- this is where you'll identify it.

Unfortunately, a BMS cannot identify a bad cell in parallel. Only in series. This is one of the caveats of parallel.
 
DC Voltage Regulator, DROK DC-DC Buck Converter Module 10V-75V to 0-60V 12A Adjustable Power Supply Step Down Transformer Board DKP6012 CC CV Numerical Control Volt Reducer https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071LGTTRN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_CidfEbX9ZPR11


I use one of these to charge cells either individually or in a group
Thanks craig, but i not sure how this works with my UK 240v mains supply. If charging one cell at a time , up to 3.65v
The item i indicated above, takes the 240v mains supply and adjusts output to 3.65v at 5A (I thought that would have been perfect??)
Thanks
 
You'd really want a power supply that you can limit the current and voltage. If you have the time you could just hook up a reasonable load to the higher voltage cell and draw it down to where the other cells are.

What sort of cells do you have? You can hit google for typical state of charge graphs for generic cells and often even get the exact graph for a cell if you know who made it. That'd show you what sort of charge difference the voltages indicate and you could use the internal resistance in the datasheet to work out how much current would flow.
The item i indicated has an adjustable voltage limited to 3.65v with a limited current of 5A all powered off my 240v mains supply. I'm surprised you didnt think this would be suitable, but i dont know much about electronics. I was looking for a method of top balancing only, so thought i could get all cells to 3.65v individually, before putting them in parallel to equalise. (I haven't pulled the trigger on a purchase as yet, as there is just so much to learn about this stuff and mistakes are going to be extremely costly) ;-))
Currently, the price of cells are coming down at the same time as the GBP is strengthening, so im in no immediate rush to buy. :)
 
Last edited:
Without any additional information it is not possible to tell if 5 amps is a totally inappropriate current to make available to the cell. If the cell can't tolerate that rate, it will be damaged.

If the cell can draw more than 5 amps the power supply will go into protection and turn off the output (or at least it should). A current limited power supply will result in reduced voltage to ensure the current doesn't exceed the set limit but it won't simply turn off the output.
 
The key thing to remember when adding a cell in parallel (or battery in a bank) is the impact at the top and bottom end of the ranges when charging and discharging. So, if your pack is dedicated to balancing, you can control all that. The issue arises when you throw one in a currently cycled pack "in production", where you no longer have the ability to control it to achieve balance, and are just blindly hoping it all works out. You have a good shot in that scenario it will all work out, but are taking a little bit of risk when it hits the top or bottom end of the pack charge cycle.

Assuming you can dedicate the pack/bank to balancing and have plenty of time, what I do for my bank is cycle with a very small load. I chose to stay near the top of the range, because my load was so tiny compared to the size of the bank. I also charged each to a similar V before putting in parallel to speed things up. I periodically let it rest by turning the load off. The only reason I used any load was to just get the electron blood flowing a little bit. Eventually, I removed the load and only went back and forth between rest and a little charging until they reached an optimal initial SoC at rest (13.6V with LiFePO4, which will eventually drop to 13.3xV at rest).

The risk if they are off and then you charge to full SoC is that you can overcharge the higher outlier. And, vice-a-versa, if one is lower voltage than the rest of the pack, and you discharge the pack to a low SoC, you risk the outlier entering damaging territory below it's ideal bottom.

In between, charging and discharging, or just keeping idle, will lead them to become balanced, presuming all other things being equal. But, if they have very different internal resistances, different self-discharge rates, etc,... then extreme cycling can actually make it worse. In other words, balancing will be more optimal with lower ranges of cycling. This is why we say that when we top balance, our goal is to keep it in the upper part of the range for awhile, because it needs time up there to really level out. Just going to 100% SoC then quickly back down will not achieve top balancing.

To be honest, the biggest risk with parallel is a bad cell or battery. They can drain the rest of the cells bringing them down to an unhealthy SoC. This is why it is more important to identify the capacity, internal resistance and self-discharge rates of cells before adding them to a pack. Self-discharge rate is the most important because if there is a problem -- typically an internal short -- this is where you'll identify it.

Unfortunately, a BMS cannot identify a bad cell in parallel. Only in series. This is one of the caveats of parallel.
Thanks erik. My thinking was, for a final 2P16S (48v300Ah)pack, i would charge each cell to 3.65v individually. Then on achieving this, i would parallel them in groups of two, according to the closest matching voltages. After self equalising, i would connect them into a 16S pack and connect with an active balancer in place. If hereafter, i only ever discharged to approximately 20% soc, then i figured the bottom balance should never really figure in my usage. Thereafter, i envisaged charging to 55.2v and then floating at 54v (My C rates would be low at 0.1-0.3) so no major extremes. Looking at maximum longevity, as i have a dual purpose in mind. My feed in tariff for my grid tied panel, finishes in 16 years, so i thought i could gently run this pack in an RV setting for that time and then repurpose them to change the grid tie home system to a stand alone home system. At 80% capacity or so, after 16 years, they would still be very useful.
 
Without any additional information it is not possible to tell if 5 amps is a totally inappropriate current to make available to the cell. If the cell can't tolerate that rate, it will be damaged.

If the cell can draw more than 5 amps the power supply will go into protection and turn off the output (or at least it should). A current limited power supply will result in reduced voltage to ensure the current doesn't exceed the set limit but it won't simply turn off the output.
Thanks gnubie. I was looking at 3.2v150Ah cells with up to 0.5C charge and 1C discharge with recommended charge voltage of 3.65v
however i appreciate what you were saying. Ta
 
Last edited:
I used to be careful and try and get cell voltages very close before paralleling, but then I did some tests on cells/batteries with widely ranging voltages and realized it takes a huge difference in voltages to draw more than about 5 amps.

I've been using these to balance the cells in parallel. Yes, only 22 awg. The small 22awg wires should act as a fusible link if anything goes terribly wrong. Works fine on just about anything I've tried from lithium cells to large LA deep cycles. I always monitor the draw with my clamp meter and wire temp with my hand...never gets hot or draws too much for the tiny wires. It may take a day or two but they balance out fine at whatever the final voltage is. Then I'll slowly drain or charge the parallel cells to the desired balance voltage. My small bike packs that are normally deeply cycled get drained and bottom balanced, my larger banks that normally stay charged get top balanced.

Trying to get all cells exact before paralleling is, IMHO, a waste of time.
 
Thanks craig, but i not sure how this works with my UK 240v mains supply. If charging one cell at a time , up to 3.65v
The item i indicated above, takes the 240v mains supply and adjusts output to 3.65v at 5A (I thought that would have been perfect??)
Thanks
Ok I guess i should of explained better I use an old computer power supply in conjunction with this. So I use the 12v dc lead from power supply to power these as they are DC-DC converters. I found an old computer in a recycling center and salvaged its power supply but you can buy them as well for pretty cheap.
 
Ok I guess i should of explained better I use an old computer power supply in conjunction with this. So I use the 12v dc lead from power supply to power these as they are DC-DC converters. I found an old computer in a recycling center and salvaged its power supply but you can buy them as well for pretty cheap.
Ahhh....perfect Craig. Gotcha.
 
Trying to get all cells exact before paralleling is, IMHO, a waste of time.
Yep, they don't need to be exact but reasonably close for the chemistry is a good idea and IMO always a good thing to have in mind. A colleague absent mindedly hooked a flat 12v battery in parallel with a charged bank. The 100 amp cables got 'quite warm'.
 

diy solar

diy solar
Back
Top