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Concessions Trailer power supply

Rob151

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I would like the help of a community much more advanced than me in this field.

My requirements are 18.3 kWh per day (12 hrs). A 220V 6000W continous pure sinewave inverter. The ability to recharge via shore power in 12hrs of downtime. Thinking LIFEPO4 CALB 3.2v 100ah in a 48v configuration. I would need 5 such "batteries" for a 25 kWh potential, assuming 80% use, would leave me with 20 kWh usable.
Questions are:
am I looking in the right direction with LIFEPO4 over traditional Lead Acid?
Would you go 48V over 12, 24, or 36 as I am thinking.(The distance between the batteries and inverter won't be more than 4' but that's alot of Amps at 12V, from my understanding) ?
Is it possible to recharge LIFEPO4 CALB batteries of this magnitude, via shore power, in 12hrs. If not, then any other suggestions?

This system will be in a trailer, towed behind the vehicle and the vehicle will be plugged into it in the same way it would be plugged into the wall if there were no trailer power supply.

After working hours, both the trailer and truck would be plugged in to shorepower, to recharge and maintain the systems at near operating status.

I have many questions concerning components, so feel free to make suggestions of any you feel needed or preferences.

I look forward to hearing your ideas.

Thank you in Advance.
 
It looks like your math checks out and charging under 12 hours is feasable. It depends on the shore power and the charger. You might barely get the juice back in fast enough from a 110vac/20a circuit and a 48v/35a charger. A 220vac/30a circuit and a beefy enough charger, like 48v/100a, would git'r done in 4 hours or so. That is if my math is correct.
 
Thank you so very much for your reply & suggestions. That helps a lot. I'm new to this, but not afraid to learn what I don't know. I will set the shore power up for 220V, for recharging.

Any particular brands to choose from, or shy away from?

Along those same lines, and considering the LIFEPO4 use, I should be using a Charge Controller, correct? Or is that only a Solar/Wind requirement?
 
If you want the big amps you're going to need an industrial sized battery charger. I don't have a specific recommendation because I charge with solar but I can show you some examples. Ask here about any others you find and maybe someone else will chime in with high current chargers to recommend. You'll definitely want to ask the manufacturer about LIFEPO4 charging profiles because the charger itself acts as the charge controller and that has to be right. Maybe some of the boating folks can better help you with picking a charger. Victron Energy is often cited here and they have a 220v/50a model linked below. There are also combination inverter/charger units like the Aims unit - bottom link - that might be a good choice for you. The Aims unit has tons of power, a 100a charger, and lithium battery support.




 
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Great information, and a big help too. I was unsure of many steps, until reaching out. I was actually looking at this unit, before posting to the forum


Just was a little unsure if having a charger/inverter was a good choice or poor choice. Many times, it seems, when a product does multiple tasks it does none of them very well. Though the reviews seem very good. I do love the remote capability on the AIMS.

I definitely want low maintenance and longevity. Picture your wife/GF or neighbor down the street being able to operate this, for the most part, once set up.

I'm so appreciative of all your input so far...its huge for me. ?
 
I have a SUNGOLDPOWER inverter/charger 4000w in my garage. This one. It works great. Good clean sine wave output. I have no trouble running my compressor and power tools. I think it's a good choice and the price is good. As near as I can tell both the AIMS and SUNGOLDPOWER units are built at the same factory. Both units come with a remote switch. AIMS has been criticized about product support although I've gotten good support them.

Another nice thing about both of those inverter/charger units is the automatic transfer switching. When you plug-in it charges and powers your stuff from the grid. When you unplug it powers your stuff from battery. You don't have to flip any switches. So plug and play, unplug and play. Easy!
 
51.2 nominal volts * 500 amp hours * 0.8 depth of discharge = 20480 watt hours
20480 watt hours * 0.85 inverter efficiency = 17408wh usable

q: am I looking in the right direction with LIFEPO4 over traditional Lead Acid?
a: yes

q: Would you go 48V over 12, 24, or 36 as I am thinking?
a: yes

q: do you mean 120/240 volts@6000 watts?
a:

A 100 amp charger should get your machine fully charged in time to do it all over again and still have a reasonable charge rate of 0.2c.
EDIT: fixed a typo
 
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q: do you mean 120/240 volts@6000 watts?
A: yes

Some appliances will run off 220/240V and some at 120, and my plan is to apply 240v to a breaker box and divide it there
 
Actually these are probably right in the groove.
32 cells gives 21094 watt hours and weighs 294.4 pounds.
Cost is $7424.00USD
 
These are what I was looking at, https://m.aliexpress.com/item/40003...bb83aca2b0ba38ca-1584325429389-07361-NRUGSJDm

(5) of them for a total of $8,695 and alot more bulk and weight than your suggested setup.

Thank you for taking the time to research and share.... I so appreciate it

Sorry, I can't really see that web page well enough to comment.
I think these are a better match for your requirements than the ones I previously recommended.
I flubbed the math before :oops:


32 cells $9984.00USD 396.8 pounds 19288.064wh factoring DOD and efficiency.
 
Screenshot_20200317-214152.png
Sorry, I can't really see that web page well enough to comment.
I think these are a better match for your requirements than the ones I previously recommended.
I flubbed the math before :oops:


32 cells $9984.00USD 396.8 pounds 19288.064wh factoring DOD and efficiency.

Honestly I feel that with the 206ah LiFePO4 that you showcased earlier, was perhaps a better deal.
Yes it was less than my target needs, but it was 7k and some change. So I add another 16 cells for $3500(roughly) and I'm at 30kWh roughly, factor in the losses is 21,517 ah....
?
Well look there, the math makes my attempted statement, foolish.

So why do you prefer these suggested batteries? The 3C rating? the smaller profile? Personal choice?
Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you. I'm just trying to learn from others, what they look for.

I wasn't trying to spend $15k on the system, but I just had an idea of what I wanted to accomplish, not how to get there. ?

Thank you for your valuable input and ideas
 
So why do you prefer these suggested batteries? The 3C rating? the smaller profile? Personal choice?

I initially referred you to the fortune batteries because of the beefy terminals, bus bars and the provisions for strapping.
Also @Will Prowse likes the fortune cells(mentioning his name will likely get you a rate).


I have talked with their people on the phone and they strike me as good people to deal with.
I recommended the 277ah xcells because of the beefy terminals and because you can have a balance lead per cell with only 2 BMSs.

Have you picked out an inverter/charger?
 
I initially referred you to the fortune batteries because of the beefy terminals, bus bars and the provisions for strapping.
Also @Will Prowse likes the fortune cells(mentioning his name will likely get you a rate).


I have talked with their people on the phone and they strike me as good people to deal with.
I recommended the 277ah xcells because of the beefy terminals and because you can have a balance lead per cell with only 2 BMSs.

Have you picked out an inverter/charger?

I was looking at the SUNGOLD 6000W/18000W Inverter/Charger


I'm not set on anything...i have much to learn and absorb. It seemed to be a good start, but it's way shy of the 100A charge rate we talked about earlier
 
This is getting interesting.
You are going to need a dedicated 240 volt input for the charger.
100 amps * 51.2 nominal volts / 0.9 conversion fudge = 5688.888888889 watts
5688.888888889 watts / 240 volts = 23.703703704 amps.
 
This is getting interesting.
You are going to need a dedicated 240 volt input for the charger.
100 amps * 51.2 nominal volts / 0.9 conversion fudge = 5688.888888889 watts
5688.888888889 watts / 240 volts = 23.703703704 amps.

I'm glad you feel that way, because I'm super excited about the potential of this project.

So the plan was for a dedicated 240V shore power point, for both recharging the batteries and truck standby maintenance.

I am confused a little. So you're saying I want 100Amp 240V charger, for this battery arrangement (let's assume the Xcell), or that 30Amps of 240V will provide 100amps of charge rate at 51.2Vdc to the batteries?

So how do you calculate if that's enough to recharge in the 12hr window? Is that the 5688W going back into the batteries? So roughly 4hrs of recharge to full capacity? Damn!

Dedicated Charger it is.

So glad I didn't just strike out on my own!
 
I am confused a little. So you're saying I want 100Amp 240V charger, for this battery arrangement (let's assume the Xcell), or that 30Amps of 240V will provide 100amps of charge rate at 51.2Vdc to the batteries?

I'm saying its not practical to draw that amount of wattage from a 120 volt supply.
I agree with your estimate ~30amps@240Vac will be required to charge your 51.2Vdc nominal bank.

So how do you calculate if that's enough to recharge in the 12hr window? Is that the 5688W going back into the batteries? So roughly 4hrs of recharge to full capacity? Damn!

Sorry, I don't have a formula for that.
Lifepo4 batteries are charged constant current=cc then constant voltage=cv.
During the constant current phase the current is limited by the charger.
The charger actually manages the charge voltage to keep the current flow at the configured rate.
The constant voltage phase begins when the amount of current the battery can draw is less than the charger's configured rate.
As the battery voltage converges with the charge voltage the current flow decreases asymptotically(approaches but never reaches zero).

"Full-charge is reached when the current decreases to typically 0.05C, which is one-twentieth of the rated ampere-hour. " -- https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_charge_li_ion_with_a_parasitic_load

For a deeply discharged battery the "bulk" of the charge is cc and happens relatively quickly.
The "absorb" phase is relatively slow.
277 amp hours * 2 strings * 0.8 depth of discharge = 443.2 amps to replaced.
443.2 amps / 60 amps charge current = 7.386666667 hours but as I described above its not linear.
The charge curve diagram in the link explains this better than my prose ever could.
 
That was a great explanation in that linked page....got it.

Thank you very much. Any recommended chargers, or charger producers?

This will need a BMS too, correct? What should I be looking for there? I know a good charge controller should monitor some critical information, but is it enough as a stand alone?

Thank you in Advance
 
Any recommended chargers, or charger producers?


This will need a BMS too, correct? What should I be looking for there? I know a good charge controller should monitor some critical information, but is it enough as a stand alone?

Not sure which bms to go with.
Do you require low temperature charge cutoff?
If not, you could get 2 of these
and make 2 batteries in parallel.
Get the 200 amp common port version and de-rate them by .5.
That means you could draw 100 amps continuous off each of the batteries in parallel for an aggregate of 200 amps.
That should cover your use case.
Won't give you any cell level data though.
I've heard good things about chargery but I have no experience with their products.

It occurs to me that this is a big expensive system with very little consideration for fault tolerance.
Perhaps @Steve_S could give us the benefit of his experience or anyone else actually.
I expect your livelihood depends on this, confirm?
 
Yes, it is for a commercial venture so I certainly want it to be "bulletproof", or as near as possible.

Cold temp monitor/shut off would be nice because I see 100F summers and Sub Zero winters. My plan was to use a heating pad and a refrigeration unit, both 12/24V, while the Trailer Power Supply was in use.

The other idea was to use an APU, meant for a Semi Tractor to heat and cool the cab, to heat and/or cool the batteries as needed...its a wash either way price wise if I pick up a used one (but I might(offered in battery and engine powered units) have the sound of a tiny diesel engine to contend with and that defeats the purpose really) I would just lug around a trailer mounted generator. ?

I believe it would likely be insurable with a commercial policy, but I haven't dug into that mound yet. I know that you can obtain policies against lost revenue due to downtime.

Very good points indeed, from yourself and everyone that's chimed in this far. You have no idea how much I'm smiling because of your helpfulness

Thank You
 
I got pinged, sorta.... I quickly read through the thread (thank goodness it isn't pages long lol) and it looks like you've gotten some good info and number crunching done... I feel the tylenol bottle might have been lightened a bit... I am going to assume you are in North America as you mention both 220/240 but 220 is EU and elsewhere and there's a big difference, 240VAC Split Phase @ 60Hz for USA & Canada.

You haven't mentioned budget, other than the obvious Frugalness that needs to apply nor any mention if you want to stick to products from US vendors only. So I'll leave that laying there.

First off a little clarity on inverters, simple guide is 12V=100W-2500W, 24V=100W-5000W, 48V=100W-10,000W, 72V+=10,000W and up. excluding surge capacities. This keeps the amperage range is a respectable zone providing optimal output, additionally undersized inverters will draw more electricity at a higher rate which will depleted the stored energy faster. This will also increase the DOD and have an effect on the depth for charge/discharge cycles of the cells. For your application requiring 6kw, 48 Volt system is suggested. More importantly, as this is a commercial venture, it is prudent to go with heavier duty equipment to endure the daily & constant demands.

Battery Cells are a bit tricky as well, as you need a healthy sized battery bank but you have limited space and certainly cannot have the batteries under foot or exposed to the on going's within the trailer. There are varied Cost Ratios to Capacity to consider related to cell capacity per dollar and the space used factor as well. As you likely discovered, there are 10AH cells as well as 1000AH cells (don't look at the price) and different cells can handle different out C-Rates as well with the larger cells being more capable of course (but not all, devil is in the details). There are HUGE pricing differences between the various cell brands as you have seen. CALB, Winston, Sinopoly, the "cased" cells are more expensive and are "premium" product lines that are well established with the RV, Marine & Mobile / Industrial users BUT they are no the only Big Players who've been around for decade +. The Aluminium Blue-ee's made by CATL, RJ, EVE ad several companies are just as good but at a lower price point. *There are shyster vendors, but we know of good reputable dealers with good deals too.

You mention up front that you believe you will need 18Kwh per day, allowing for buffer (prevent too deep DOD) and to allow for extra running hours for special events & whatnot... I'll round it to 20Kwh @ 48VDC = 416AH - so KISS applied say 48V/400AH (19.2kwh). You can build one 48V/400AH pack with 16x400Ah cells, or two, 48V/200AH pack with 32x200Ah I certainly would not use cells of a lesser capacity because the space used & complexity. ❗ Insurance Company "may not" accept a DIY Battery Bank, additionally, they can refuse anything that is not UL/CSA etc certified, so Verify with Insurance BEFORE buying anything ! Imagine how happy & joyous you'd be if they told you to rip it all out. THEY DO THAT TOO ! If you want insurance you have to follow their rules.

Inverters, using the AIMS which was offered up previously, for comparison points: NOTE, these are made in China by Sigineer, they are a reasonable VAR (Value Added Reseller) "value" components that will serve their function, They are not very configurable and have their limitations. Their efficiency rating is also "average" in the mid 80% range.

6000 Watt Pure Sine Inverter Charger 48Vdc / 240Vac Input & 120/240Vac Split Phase Output $1951.00
(NOT UL/ETL)
*60A Charger with 240VAC input ** Basic Lithium support.

8000 Watt Pure Sine Inverter Charger - 48 Vdc / 240Vac Input & 120/240Vac Split Phase Output ETL Listed to UL 1741 $3541.00
no 48v/6kw unit avail. *80A Charger built in, takes 24VAC input ** NO LITHIUM SUPPORT !

As this setup will use a 6Kw Inverter I strongly suggest 48VDC system, a Large Inverter capable of taking 240VAC "Shore Power" and charging the batteries is a reasonable possibility, provided the charger has enough amperage relative to the battery packs. Also a consideration, if this will be recharged with Grid Power the likelyhood is that the majority of the charging will occur during Off-Peak hours when the cost per Kw from the grid is lowest, therefore a slightly longer charge time may be ok, if the system is fully recharged by the morning when you have to get going.

IF you require a separate Charger System there are different ways to configure the battery bank & the BMS' to support it. If using an Inverter Only and a separate charging system, then a "Separate Port BMS" configuration is likely most appropriate, if using an combined Inverter/Charger then a "Single Port BMS" configuration will work best. ! NB ! FET Based BMS' have serious limitations to large amperage handling and must be carefully considered. BMS Choices depend on the Battery Bank and the sizing & loading of the Inverter and how you intend to charge the battery bank.

Hope that helps, sorry it's a long read.
Sheesh and all this and I just got to the bottom of Mugga #1 oivey, refill time. (excuse the typonese eh!)
Steve

PS: Buck Converters are the lowest of the low cheapo answer and fail a lot... a proper step down converter will be required as this is commercial use and will have to be completely reliable, dependable & safe. I've melted down buck converters, it's too easy to do and when they fail it can be nasty. They seem to fail and allow full voltage through... imagine 12V device getting 48V or 59V (which charging) instant magic smoke.
 

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