Concessions Trailer power supply

[Steve_S]

Just to toss in something to ponder upon

32 Cells of 280AH = two (48v/280AH 13.4kwh gross)

4pcs/batch Lf280 Lep 3.2v 280ah Lifepo4 Prismatic Battery Cell For Diy 12v 24v 36v 48v Home Energy Storage - Buy 280ah Lifepo4,280ah Battery,Eve Lifepo4 Product on Alibaba.com

4pcs/batch Lf280 Lep 3.2v 280ah Lifepo4 Prismatic Battery Cell For Diy 12v 24v 36v 48v Home Energy Storage , Find Complete Details about 4pcs/batch Lf280 Lep 3.2v 280ah Lifepo4 Prismatic Battery Cell For Diy 12v 24v 36v 48v Home Energy Storage,280ah Lifepo4,280ah Battery,Eve Lifepo4 from Lithium...

www.alibaba.com

There are others too.... just an example from a known good company.

 

[Rob151]

You will need a buck converter to step down the voltage.

We use the small Step up converters in our production boats for the 24vdc led lights, with vary degrees of success, and have had some issues with them. I was actually just going to Install a small standalone battery bank(maybe with some flexible solar panels on the roof of the cargo trailer to recharge that system)

Thank you for your ideas and advice... You've certainly inspired me @smoothJoey

 

[Rob151]

I got pinged, sorta.... I quickly read through the thread (thank goodness it isn't pages long lol) and it looks like you've gotten some good info and number crunching done... I feel the tylenol bottle might have been lightened a bit... I am going to assume you are in North America as you mention both 220/240 but 220 is EU and elsewhere and there's a big difference, 240VAC Split Phase @ 60Hz for USA & Canada.

You haven't mentioned budget, other than the obvious Frugalness that needs to apply nor any mention if you want to stick to products from US vendors only. So I'll leave that laying there.

First off a little clarity on inverters, simple guide is 12V=100W-2500W, 24V=100W-5000W, 48V=100W-10,000W, 72V+=10,000W and up. excluding surge capacities. This keeps the amperage range is a respectable zone providing optimal output, additionally undersized inverters will draw more electricity at a higher rate which will depleted the stored energy faster. This will also increase the DOD and have an effect on the depth for charge/discharge cycles of the cells. For your application requiring 6kw, 48 Volt system is suggested. More importantly, as this is a commercial venture, it is prudent to go with heavier duty equipment to endure the daily & constant demands.

Thank You @Steve_S

You covered alot, indeed, with some amazing thoughts and advice. No apologies needed, it might just take me a bit to process it all

The Trailer which will be my Power Supply is a small cargo (covered/enclosed) trailer. Aside from the battery, inverter & charger, heat and cooling(for batteries), it will only carry some extra non perishables. So there will not be foot traffic to deal with, and space is not a concern. It is a mobile battery power supply.

I do want to be as frugal as possible. I do want to be able to replicate in the future, as well, perhaps. I do need it to be robust and reliable.

Thank you so much

 

[Rob151]

As far as "States" vs. Foreign source, I really only care that I can get the items and they are A grade. I live in Washington State, and we are the epicenter of this panicdemic

 

[Rob151]

Just to toss in something to ponder upon

32 Cells of 280AH = two (48v/280AH 13.4kwh gross)
View attachment 9270

4pcs/batch Lf280 Lep 3.2v 280ah Lifepo4 Prismatic Battery Cell For Diy 12v 24v 36v 48v Home Energy Storage - Buy 280ah Lifepo4,280ah Battery,Eve Lifepo4 Product on Alibaba.com

4pcs/batch Lf280 Lep 3.2v 280ah Lifepo4 Prismatic Battery Cell For Diy 12v 24v 36v 48v Home Energy Storage , Find Complete Details about 4pcs/batch Lf280 Lep 3.2v 280ah Lifepo4 Prismatic Battery Cell For Diy 12v 24v 36v 48v Home Energy Storage,280ah Lifepo4,280ah Battery,Eve Lifepo4 from Lithium...

www.alibaba.com

There are others too.... just an example from a known good company.

Alright... my math says that I'm doing something incorrectly 2 ×(48vdc ×(280ah)) = 26,880ah... if my math is right, then you just showed me the holy grail of the battery world, because those (2) batteries just gave me the same gross power potential as (5) CALB 48vdc 100ah that I had been looking at....for 1/2 the price.

And if my math is wrong.... I might need some tutoring?

 

[Steve_S]

16 cells = 48VDC pack. 48VDC x 280AH = 13,440 X 2 packs in parallel = 26,880.
Your math is right, I was napping @ the wheel.... Thank goodness I was sitting on a soft sofa. Dang Brain Farts !

 

[Rob151]

16 cells = 48VDC pack. 48VDC x 280AH = 13,440 X 2 packs in parallel = 26,880.
Your math is right, I was napping @ the wheel.... Thank goodness I was sitting on a soft sofa. Dang Brain Farts !

Hahahaha... I'm glad I'm not alone in that regard! At times I need to surround myself in Bubble wrap.

That said, you suggested some AIMS inverter/chargers as examples, but I get the feeling you don't really like them. When reading the reviews and product info on the 10kW Inverter/100A Charger ($2900+) that had been offered up by earlier, I noticed that the reviews weren't stellar and that it didn't seem very configurable for LiFePO4 batteries.
Having zero real world knowledge to work with, other than what I've read, it seems to me that I would want a dedicated charger that can reliably charge my batteries,
right?
With that in mind, I'd like to default to those of you who have similiar batteries, or a broader scope of understanding than me. I will definitely go with those EVE 280ah packs, even though shipping pains me ? they are quite literally 1/2 the cost of what I'd been looking at, with MORE power.
I mentioned the SUNGOLDPOWER 6000W/ 18kW inverter/Charger earlier, but only because it met my needs and had decent reviews, at a fair price point.
I don't need to charge my batteries in 4hrs, I just need them reliably charged within 10-12. You know what I mean? Yes, I will take them charged faster if it's doable in way that doesn't harm the life or durability of the batteries, but not if the price point is ridiculously different.
In the same token, if it's wise to spend more to meet my needs and prolong the use of the investment to it's full potential, I'm ok with that.
When I first looked into the idea, i almost scrapped it because of cost. Luckily for me, I didn't because I really liked the idea of quiet power!
Thanks to you all... it's almost at my fingertips.
If you trust the brands, I will trust the brands.

 

[Steve_S]

@Rob151
~ snipped, with responses

That said, you suggested some AIMS inverter/chargers as examples, but I get the feeling you don't really like them.
Nope, not fan really, they are a respectable "value" level product but too marked up IMO. and more... There is better

Having zero real world knowledge to work with, other than what I've read, it seems to me that I would want a dedicated charger that can reliably charge my batteries, right?
Well, that's a Yes & No. A good Inverter/Charger, is just as good as a dedicated charger is but your sharing some circuitry, obviously. They also provide pass-through power, so if you have a fridge etc, they will still get powered while charging without seriously affecting the charge rate. If you get one that will accept 240VAC from the grid for charging, you can put out good amperage, charge quickly and be ready to go. Remember that the 240VAC is being stepped down & converted to 48VDC, so it's not "big" in that sense. Even with 120VAC input you can still charge comfortably at a good rate. My inverter is connected to L5:30 120VAC/30A on my genset for backup charging and I push 60A @ 24VDC. A Dedicated Charger that can deliver the amperage rate to get a good charge time is a costly item on it's own, they work great but are NOT cheap ok. Add that to the cost of an inverter and sheesh. Also, I'm not sure you can get a respectable 48V/6kw, 240VAC Inverter that doesn't have charging capability.
!! The 280AH cells can take 1C charging which is 280A, .5C = 140A. The BMS has to be able to accept that & be programmed to handle what you can throw at it.

With that in mind, I'd like to default to those of you who have similiar batteries, or a broader scope of understanding than me. I will definitely go with those EVE 280ah packs, even though shipping pains me ? they are quite literally 1/2 the cost of what I'd been looking at, with MORE power.
I mentioned the SUNGOLDPOWER 6000W/ 18kW inverter/Charger earlier, but only because it met my needs and had decent reviews, at a fair price point.
PLEASE NO ! These again are the "Value" dip switch settable, not programable and poor Lithium anything support. Goodness Gracious NO ! I can get into a long diatribe, I won't - can't. These are fine basic units with Lead, Gel and even then "pretty basic". I think you'd be fine with 5000W and up and might want to look at Victron (that's the high end side) to get an idea of what's out there. The 5-6kw inverter range is a bit strange. This is where "stackable" inverters may work better . I haven't done much research on that end as it's not something I'm using / doing.

I don't need to charge my batteries in 4hrs, I just need them reliably charged within 10-12. You know what I mean? Yes, I will take them charged faster if it's doable in way that doesn't harm the life or durability of the batteries, but not if the price point is ridiculously different.
I don't know about your area, here there is a "Time of Use" rate, so you pay different rate depending on the time of day and which day. Ideally, you want to be able to fully charge up while at the lowest rate, so your not hemorrhaging cash to Big Power Co. needlessly. Also, it's a good idea to keep the option open for "emergency charging" from a generator too, because a funny thing is that "shit happens".

~~~~~~~~

I hope I helps, but I'm not so sure it's the answers you hoped for.

 

[Rob151]

Well I hope you haven't tired of me yet... been working, and working to process all off the help, hints and ideas that have been shared.

Let's assume that I'm using:
32 EVE Lifepo4 3.2v 280ah cells
(2) 16 cell batteries (48v/280ah)

VICTRON Energy Quattro 10kw/48volt Inverter & 140Amp Battery Charger
(I like their 5 year warranty)
(Stacking Inverters seems to double costs)
(Separating inverters and chargers increases cost and complexity)

It makes sense to me, to use their BMS

Victron Energy Bus BMS - BMS300200000

BAM030712000 Product Page. Buy Victron Energy Battery Monitor - BMV-712 Smart online at https://www.solarpanelstore.com/solar-power/large-charge-controllers/victron-energy-controllers/victron-battery-monitor.html for sale and information about how to use them.

www.solarpanelstore.com

What I don't see, or don't understand, is individual cell monitoring. This product doesn't seem capable of that, to me. It appears that it would only monitor the batteries as a unit, not the cells. Am I wrong? Am I looking in the wrong direction? Is it not needed? I feel that I've heard it is, somewhere...though I'm not sure where. Should I be looking at another product that will work with this Charger/Inverter, and monitor the individual cells?
Thank you, ALL of you

 

[Steve_S]

Well I hope you haven't tired of me yet... been working, and working to process all off the help, hints and ideas that have been shared.

Let's assume that I'm using:
32 EVE Lifepo4 3.2v 280ah cells
(2) 16 cell batteries (48v/280ah)

VICTRON Energy Quattro 10kw/48volt Inverter & 140Amp Battery Charger
(I like their 5 year warranty)
(Stacking Inverters seems to double costs)
(Separating inverters and chargers increases cost and complexity)

It makes sense to me, to use their BMS
~snip

What I don't see, or don't understand, is individual cell monitoring. This product doesn't seem capable of that, to me. It appears that it would only monitor the batteries as a unit, not the cells. Am I wrong? Am I looking in the wrong direction? Is it not needed? I feel that I've heard it is, somewhere...though I'm not sure where. Should I be looking at another product that will work with this Charger/Inverter, and monitor the individual cells?
Thank you, ALL of you

I'm no Victron guru or anything, others here are far more cozy with them. From the docs that VE.Bus BMS is for use with their own batteries that have the actual BMS inside them, it's an interface. There are people using "3rd party" batteries and have them integrated with the Victron systems, that's the beauty of Victron, many ways to interface things. They also have some very good software to go with their stuff that helps with it.

Battery monitoring and how much you want to do is a personal choice, depends on how picky & techie you are I suppose, LOL. Having the BMS "talk" to the SCC and/or Inverter and say when it's full or empty and to shut off or throttle, keeps things optimal, intelligently. You can monitor that too wit software if you want.

 

[Rob151]

Thank you @Steve_S
I don't feel, day to day, it's imperative to monitor every cell, but I also don't want to throw out a $4k battery because of 0ne bad cell... I also don't know what the hell I'm talking about, yet. ?.
I truly want everything to work as painlessly as possible, for as long as possible, with as little personal involvement as possible. Whatever ensure the longest and best functionality. It seems that the Charger/Inverter has some capabilities to monitor, but I didn't know if it was Victron proprietary batteries or any battery hooked to the system, or 3rd party batteries with BMS or 3rd party batteries with 3rd party BMS. Lol
The system specs are more than I need, so there's room for growth without additional funds. If I can put together a package that can function together.
Hopefully someone who knows Victron will help fill in the gaps.

Thanks as always!

P.S. how do I figure out how many solar panels, in a series, I need to charge this system in a day....because you never know when I might need to park my T.M.P.S. at the house to power my life.

 

[Steve_S]

Ohh my Panels... your pretty limited with a trailer, roof, awning, few different possibilities and costs too. Then amount of space, trailers aren't big and ten aiming the panels… flat on the roof works at the equator but not in New York City Mobile mounting of panels is not my area of knowledge, there Is some trickery there but Will got a lot of that in his Vids. As for amount of solar, in this case I'd say as much as can be fitted & setup with the most capable Victron Solar Charge Controller (SCC) possible. Even some limited charging when the Sun is up while working is still a benefit and knocks some of the edge off the usage on the battery system

Suggestion / Advice: With the value of what your stuffing in that trailer and "advertising" with panels on it. I Very Highly recommend getting a GPS Tracking Puck and stashing that somewhere "hard to find & get at" on the trailer, in case it goes wandering off in the wee hours of the night.

 

[Rob151]

Great tip @Steve_S

Sorry...no, these wouldn't be mounted to the trailer. Good Gosh no!The panels would be at my own home for when TEOTWAWKI happens, or grid goes down.

After all, it's just a power supply on wheels?