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Sol-Ark 15K All in One Inverter Released.

Interesting discussion. For clarification, yes, I was referring to AC coupled PV input via the GEN port.

The reason I ask this is because it will be a while before my DC PV will be installed. But, I do have access to 300W-2000W of AC coupled PV and 15kWh of batteries almost immediately if I wanted to utilize the system to power something off grid. I wouldn't be too difficult to approximately match the loads to the AC coupled PV generation, and even run some of those loads off the batteries during no PV generation to keep the battery SoC low enough so there's plenty of buffer to dump excess AC coupled PV generation should the inverter need to do so.

Yes I realize this is a far from an ideal situation, and not the ideal use of this large inverter, but at least it could be put to SOME use fairly quickly, rather than just sitting in the box or hanging on the wall for months being unutilized. Reaching out to Sol-Ark for their recommendations before proceeding obviously is a must, I just wanted to get your thoughts before wasting their time if there was an obvious reason why this couldn't be done. I appreciate all the input!
 
To follow up, I contacted SA TS and received a prompt response:
"Although not the most ideal, this will work. As you stated, the batteries will need to hit their ON% to accept AC coupled power which will typically be achieved from discharging over night. I would not worry about using loads just to bring down battery SOC, as just allowing power to be accepting when necessary will be the most sufficient way to utilize the power."

I responded with:
"My biggest concern was utilizing a load and having it drop, I didn't know how fast the inverter would be able to kill the AC coupled micro-inverter supplied current (I'm assuming through frequency-shifting?) if there wasn't sufficient demand from the battery to dump that power to. Sounds like it's do-able though as I would never allow the battery to get close to full.
Likewise, would this also work okay (same scenario), but grid tied and limited to "zero-export" utilizing the CT's?"

SA response:
"Yes, we will frequency shift the AC coupled power when battery SOC reaches the OFF%. Dropping a load will not have any effect as the AC coupled power will either be going toward load or battery, when program allows AC coupled power to flow.

Grid tied would be the most effective when AC coupling because we will produce power as long as the grid is available. However, you would need grid sell selected when AC coupling on-grid, because we can't limit how much AC coupled power is being produced (either all or nothing)."
 
They did not specifically say that it would work in zero export mode, but that is not the initial use case of @Wet1 anyway. I do agree with them that grid tied is the most effective because the grid presents an infinite load and therefore is a very good buffer for changes in loads on the house side of the meter.
The more I think about grid zero the more I have an unanswered question implied by their statement that, "you would need grid sell selected". My thinking is that if in grid sell mode that SolArk would be in true grid tie mode and get its frequency from the grid. In other words it might not be able to shift frequency to reduce of turn off the AC coupled power. I do not have a SolArk so I am only speculating but maybe the selections are toggled so that it is not possible to have "grid sell selected" and also put the inverter in grid zero mode. Again, I realize this is not the OPs use case but I am only offering that conjecture for the benefit of other readers.
 
When connected to grid, whether "sell" enabled or not, frequency comes from the grid.
I think SolArk is grid-interactive, able to use PV and battery to supply power for loads with grid also supplying more if necessary.

If "sell" disabled, CT would show power being exported from connected GT PV which SolArk would react to. Enabled, would allow.

If GT PV inverter has its own CT for zero export, that may or may not work with SolArk "sell" disabled, depending on how "zero" their respective zero measurements are. At that point you've got two control loops, each with their own parameters for rate of change etc. (PID or whatever implemented.)
 
Ampster said:
They did not specifically say that it would work in zero export mode, but that is not the initial use case of @Wet1 anyway. I do agree with them that grid tied is the most effective because the grid presents an infinite load and therefore is a very good buffer for changes in loads on the house side of the meter.
The more I think about grid zero the more I have an unanswered question implied by their statement that, "you would need grid sell selected". My thinking is that if in grid sell mode that SolArk would be in true grid tie mode and get its frequency from the grid. In other words it might not be able to shift frequency to reduce of turn off the AC coupled power. I do not have a SolArk so I am only speculating but maybe the selections are toggled so that it is not possible to have "grid sell selected" and also put the inverter in grid zero mode. Again, I realize this is not the OPs use case but I am only offering that conjecture for the benefit of other readers.
Click to expand...
"However, you would need grid sell selected when AC coupling on-grid, because we can't limit how much AC coupled power is being produced (either all or nothing)."

I took that to mean either grid-zero will not work, or it's possibly not even an option in the set-up menu when AC coupling is used when grid tied. Either way, if I'm understanding this correctly, it does not sound like the SA can zero output when only AC coupled PV is installed on-grid.
 
Wet1 said:
"However, you would need grid sell selected when AC coupling on-grid, because we can't limit how much AC coupled power is being produced (either all or nothing)."

I took that to mean either grid-zero will not work, or it's possibly not even an option in the set-up menu when AC coupling is used when grid tied. Either way, if I'm understanding this correctly, it does not sound like the SA can zero output when only AC coupled PV is installed on-grid.
Click to expand...
That's the interpretation I understood. In the 12k manual, if you want "zero to home" then you need to select off grid. For on grid, you need to select "grid sell". No frequency shifting but then that contradicts what they state earlier, "Yes, we will frequency shift the AC coupled power when battery SOC reaches the OFF%. Dropping a load will not have any effect as the AC coupled power will either be going toward load or battery, when program allows AC coupled power to flow."

Those two statements seem to contradict each other, or perhaps their wording isn't clear.

If I am not mistaken, the latest revision of Outback Radian and the XW Pro from Schneider do support frequency-watts standard, but do not limit the output of the AC-Coupled inverter. The only system I am aware of that truly controls the AC-Coupled inverter is SMA. I saw a 5 yr old video of a Sunny Island with Sunny Boy and the interaction was amazing. When load started, the Sunny Island would ramp up. A short time later, the Sunny Boy would then ramp up output to match the load. Once the load dropped, the Sunny Island would take excess energy and deposit into battery until the Sunny Boy idled down. However, this may have been an off-grid setup.

I'd get SMA gear, but two Sunny Island and two Sunny Boys would be pushing $8-10k.
 
turbo6bar said:
That's the interpretation I understood. In the 12k manual, if you want "zero to home" then you need to select off grid. For on grid, you need to select "grid sell". No frequency shifting but then that contradicts what they state earlier, "Yes, we will frequency shift the AC coupled power when battery SOC reaches the OFF%. Dropping a load will not have any effect as the AC coupled power will either be going toward load or battery, when program allows AC coupled power to flow."

Those two statements seem to contradict each other, or perhaps their wording isn't clear.
Click to expand...
No, the statement "Yes, we will frequency shift the AC coupled power when battery SOC reaches the OFF%. Dropping a load will not have any effect as the AC coupled power will either be going toward load or battery, when program allows AC coupled power to flow." was referring to off-grid.
 
IDK, but I suspect it's because it has to do with it reading the frequency of the grid and is unable to adjust AC frequency on the GEN input at the same time? Clearly it can handle this while grid tied with DC input, but I too don't fully understand why it can't do it with AC coupling as well. This has been a complete grey area for me all along.
 
Wet1 said:
IDK, but I suspect it's because it has to do with it reading the frequency of the grid and is unable to adjust AC frequency on the GEN input at the same time? Clearly it can handle this while grid tied with DC input, but I too don't fully understand why it can't do it with AC coupling as well. This has been a complete grey area for me all along.
Click to expand...
Actually, now that you mention it, the inverter can't frequency shift, because it is operating in parallel with the grid. A feature of the Sol-Ark is being able to blend grid, solar, and battery energy to power loads, so to be able to pass grid power through to satisfy loads, the inverter would need to be synchronized with grid frequency.

When Sol-Ark is off-grid, you can change frequency, since the Sol-Ark becomes the grid.

It can adjust DC input power while on grid, since the DC side is on the other side of the inverter and not tied to AC power or frequency.

It makes sense, now.

Seems like your only option for AC coupled only panels would be off grid with battery.
 
Makes sense. And off grid is what I wanted to do with it anyway, but for educational purposes, I did want to know the answer relating to grid tie anyway.
 
Yes and you can only frequency shift one device on the system and it cannot be a generator or the Grid as they are the sources that the Sol-Ark inverter will Sync to.
 
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turbo6bar said:
I'd get SMA gear, but two Sunny Island and two Sunny Boys would be pushing $8-10k.
Click to expand...

SMA gear for SolArk money.
Value for money is best if PV wattage is twice battery inverter wattage.

Each Sunny Island can pass through 56A to/from grid, 6.7kW, all on the 120V phase it is connected to.
If never backfeeding grid, each Sunny Island (6kw) can manage 12kW of GT PV, e.g. 2x 6.0 Sunny Boys.

You can make a system with a single Sunny Island plus an auto or isolation transformer making 120/240V split-phase.
You could have grid feed a main panel with one Sunny Boy, panel feeds Sunny Island and a protected loads panel with one Sunny Boy. In the event of grid failure, protected loads panel automatically supported with PV and battery. Switch and interlocked "generator" breaker on main panel (and turn off breaker feeding Sunny Island), now your whole house is backed up with 12kW of PV and 6kW of battery.


Some inverters with CT for export limit could be controlled while on-grid despite no frequency shift. I think SMA does this with a 3rd party meter, but also some internet connection I don't understand. Not sure if there is a gizmo you can have on-site that would read utility current and throttle the inverter. Also not sure that would be fast enough to limit relay current before Sunny Island reacts.
 
I plan on installing a 15K Solark later this summer. My current grid feed is direct from outdoor meter, to 200A main panel in basement. Can anyone suggest the best method to re-direct the main input from the main panel to the new sol-ark, then feed the main panel with the sol-ark, as it appears Sol-ark is recommending.

So far I have done some inquires about installing a main panel cut off switch, that I could then use to make the new connections... but no one appears to be interested in just doing that job.

I can't imagine it is more than a 1 day job from start to finish, anyone care to guess how much a move of the main feed from main panel to sol-ark 15K input then back to the main panel would cost?

THanks
 
200A main breaker is at the main panel, no breaker at the meter?
In that case, meter gets yanked so wires aren't live during the connection.

Does SolArk have a 200A pass-through relay built in? Does it have the ability to close that relay, leaving power to house on while the rest of SolArk gets removed and shipped back for repair?
If not, would be awfully nice to have some kind of bypass/transfer switch so the lights stay on when SolArk is down for the count. But, the amount of switch gear required to send 200A straight through vs. diverting through SolArk and back will cost serious $$$.

Just a fused 200A disconnect is available. Or a new meter box with built-in main breaker. Probably less expensive than the fused disconnect!

How about instead installing a new 400A main panel with 200A main breaker? That would allow up to 200A (or more) PV breaker without violating 120% rule. But I'm not aware of branch breaker larger than 125A for consumer panels. You could have 200A main breaker at meter, 125A breaker feeding SolArk feeding existing panel, 125A breaker bypassing SolArk to an interlocked 125A "generator" breaker on existing panel.

(Maybe 2/0 cables could tap off mounting screws of 200A main breaker on new panel, feeding into 200A main breaker of existing panel, but not sure that is considered proper. More likely, two sets of 2/0 cables from fused disconnect, one set to SolArk and one to main breaker of existing panel. Sol-Ark could feed interlocked "generator" breaker of existing panel.)

You need to plan what configuration with which components, providing the functionality you want when grid is down and when SolArk is down.

If you get a design approved by permit office, mount all boxes and conduit, leave pulling wire and making connection for electrician to do while power disconnected, that is a smaller job. But conduit routing with minimal bends, thorough reaming, access to pull, is critical. Maybe you can pull yourself (2/0 is difficult!) if you can do that without risking contact to live terminals. Possibly, re-use of existing wire would minimize effort of conduit and pulling, especially if that reduces all pulling to a straight shot. Need power off for all work in that case.
 
Hedges said:
200A main breaker is at the main panel, no breaker at the meter?
In that case, meter gets yanked so wires aren't live during the connection.

Does SolArk have a 200A pass-through relay built in? Does it have the ability to close that relay, leaving power to house on while the rest of SolArk gets removed and shipped back for repair?
If not, would be awfully nice to have some kind of bypass/transfer switch so the lights stay on when SolArk is down for the count. But, the amount of switch gear required to send 200A straight through vs. diverting through SolArk and back will cost serious $$$.

Just a fused 200A disconnect is available. Or a new meter box with built-in main breaker. Probably less expensive than the fused disconnect!

How about instead installing a new 400A main panel with 200A main breaker? That would allow up to 200A (or more) PV breaker without violating 120% rule. But I'm not aware of branch breaker larger than 125A for consumer panels. You could have 200A main breaker at meter, 125A breaker feeding SolArk feeding existing panel, 125A breaker bypassing SolArk to an interlocked 125A "generator" breaker on existing panel.

(Maybe 2/0 cables could tap off mounting screws of 200A main breaker on new panel, feeding into 200A main breaker of existing panel, but not sure that is considered proper. More likely, two sets of 2/0 cables from fused disconnect, one set to SolArk and one to main breaker of existing panel. Sol-Ark could feed interlocked "generator" breaker of existing panel.)

You need to plan what configuration with which components, providing the functionality you want when grid is down and when SolArk is down.

If you get a design approved by permit office, mount all boxes and conduit, leave pulling wire and making connection for electrician to do while power disconnected, that is a smaller job. But conduit routing with minimal bends, thorough reaming, access to pull, is critical. Maybe you can pull yourself (2/0 is difficult!) if you can do that without risking contact to live terminals. Possibly, re-use of existing wire would minimize effort of conduit and pulling, especially if that reduces all pulling to a straight shot. Need power off for all work in that case.
Click to expand...
Hello

My current power feed is meter outside with no cutoff switch, then a direct feed from the meter box to my main 200A breaker box.

You raise some good questions about what happens if/when the sol-ark craps out, I believe I have read that it includes a some kind of a passthrough arrangement, but it appears to be built into the box, so if the box needs to be serviced it would result in a house without power.

Best question that I currently cannot answer (thanks)
===============================================================
You need to plan what configuration with which components, providing the functionality you want when grid is down and when SolArk is down.
===============================================================
I am now thinking that perhaps some kind of manual transfer switch that would allow feed to from grid , back to main panel in basement flipped one way, then when flipped the other way would send grid power direct to the Solark 15Kw. Problem is the main panel only has one input and having two independent main feeds is not normal.

I also appreciate your suggestions about planning, and installing just the boxes/switches, and PVC conduit to reduce the size of the job.. that's good advice.

I am still struggling with the diagrams at Solark, and the suggestions (which I like) to install main power feed to the Sol-ark and skip screwing around with critical needs panels and critical needs breakers.

The images all show a 200A fused disconnect between the main feed and the solark. There is also a "line tap"
option layout , but that shows a second "critical needs" panel, so I would like to avoid that.


But I don't understand how the house will still operate if the Sol-ark goes down hard, or needs to be replaced.

I'll have to ask Solark, or perhaps someone here knows the answer.
Or maybe we just "roll the dice" and hope the solark runs perfectly for 20 years with no pause.
 
I have a similar arrangement, although only 100A at the meter. I too have started looking at options to add an external disconnect. Ideally I'd like to add a 200A disconnect should I ever want or need to upgrade to a 200A service, and have no interest in going through the hassle of adding a CLP.

Exterior disconnect switches aren't cheap, but I like the idea of having one anyway (although I don't like the idea that anyone with nefarious intentions could easily just flip the exterior disconnect and shut down the power & potentially the internet based security systems). I have a friend at the power company that will pull the meter for me and replace the security clip, so that simplifies things a little for a DIY inline disconnect installation. I hadn't thought about changing out the meter box and replacing with a meter box with a built in disconnect. I'm assuming this would require the power company to disconnect at the pole? A quick search suggest these aren't much cheaper either, at least I didn't see any simple, cheap, and easy options with my quick search.

I did inquire about the 200A bypass to make sure it will pass the power through should there be an internal failure of the SA. It will, but I believe it's internal and if the unit ever has to be completely remove for servicing, you do have an issue. I considered adding a transfer switch inline for this reason, but as stated it certainly complicates things and adds a lot of cost. In the end I decided if I'm going to be adding an exterior main disconnect, this would safely allow me access to manually bypass the SA (via Polaris connectors) for temporary servicing. It's not ideal, but it wouldn't require too much work to do so and it could be done without the fear of working with live wires. It's worth also noting that many times boards or parts can be replaced by the homeowner or installer as well, so in the event of a SA failure, it might not have to be removed for servicing.
 
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I think a 200A fused disconnect, or meter box with 200A breaker, could feed two sets of 2/0 cable. If terminals only fit one cable, then splice second cable with Polaris connectors.
That fans out to SolArk and 200A breaker of existing panel.
Sol-Ark feeds existing panel through interlocked 125A "generator" breaker.
Sol-Ark can also feed a new critical loads panel.

That should let you flip interlocked breakers so existing panel is fed directly from grid.
A critical loads panel can have interlocked breakers to feed from existing panel.

To remove Sol-Ark, turn off main breaker, then pull 2/0 wires out of Polaris connectors. Then you can turn breakers back on and have power while working on Sol-Ark.

First hit on fused 200A disconnect is horrendously expensive, although you may find more reasonable.
Breaker boxes and service entrances sold at big box stores will be more attractive.
 
My system is like that, with 200A service to meter and breaker, Polaris after that splitting to 200A panel (with its own breaker) and 100A fused disconnect for inverters.

electrical boxes IMG_2211.jpg Line Side Tap IMG_2213.jpg
 
I spent a couple minutes searching and found this , not cheap, but not out of sight.

www.homedepot.com

Siemens Heavy Duty 200 Amp 240-Volt 2-Pole Indoor Fusible Safety Switch with Neutral HF224N - The Home Depot

Heavy Duty Safety Switches are available in 30-1200 Amp ratings and in type 1, 3R, 12 and 4X enclosures. Both fusible and non-fusible versions are offered, they can be used on circuits that are rated through 200K when protected by or used with Class R or J fuses, they feature quick make and...
www.homedepot.com

Any reason this won't meet the need for 200A fused disconnect that Sol-ark shows in the install manuals?
 
12kw_2021 said:
I spent a couple minutes searching and found this , not cheap, but not out of sight.

www.homedepot.com

Siemens Heavy Duty 200 Amp 240-Volt 2-Pole Indoor Fusible Safety Switch with Neutral HF224N - The Home Depot

Heavy Duty Safety Switches are available in 30-1200 Amp ratings and in type 1, 3R, 12 and 4X enclosures. Both fusible and non-fusible versions are offered, they can be used on circuits that are rated through 200K when protected by or used with Class R or J fuses, they feature quick make and...
www.homedepot.com

Any reason this won't meet the need for 200A fused disconnect that Sol-ark shows in the install manuals?
Click to expand...
Don't you require an exterior disconnect? If so:
www.homedepot.com

Siemens Heavy Duty 200 Amp 240-Volt 2-Pole Outdoor Fusible Safety Switch HF224NR

Heavy Duty Safety Switches are available in 30-1200 Amp ratings and in type 1, 3R, 12 and 4X enclosures. Both fusible and non-fusible versions are offered, they can be used on circuits that are rated through 200K when protected by or used with Class R or J fuses, they feature quick make and...
www.homedepot.com
 
Should be fine, so long as "indoor" meets your needs. Otherwise, want "3R" enclosure. Yeah, "Wet1" found, it, how appropriate!
That one has a neutral bar, which possibly can be grounded. If bonding of neutral occurs elsewhere, add a ground bar.
You may be able to get lugs with stacked terminals rather than using Polaris, to feed SolArk and main panel. May also want 3rd connection for critical loads panel (both it and main panel could bypass SolArk.)
200A in and available to each panel and inverter, but interlocked "generator" breakers probably limited to 125A, so multiple parallel branches to carry more current.

You might want a load-shed relay between SolArk and main panel so if batteries low at least critical loads remain powered. And shutdown of larger loads like A/C before that occurs.
 
While on this topic, 1) Isn't the disconnect required to be exterior (and close to the meter, or is that optional), and 2) The disconnect doesn't have to be fused, correct? 3) Since N/G bonding typically takes place at the main panel, I'm assuming you mean to just feed the N/G ground on separately and into the SA, but ground the exterior disconnect enclosure? 4) A 3 pole would work as well, correct?
 
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Wet1 said:
While on this topic, 1) Isn't the disconnect required to be exterior (and close to the meter, or is that optional), and 2) The disconnect doesn't have to be fused, correct? 3) Since N/G bonding typically takes place at the main panel, I'm assuming you mean to just feed the N/G ground on separately and into the SA, but ground the exterior disconnect enclosure? 4) A 3 pole would work as well, correct?
Click to expand...
Hello
Yes there is a stand alone solar only AC input disconnect switch that I am installing outdoors, with instructions on the meter panel that it is around the corner and available to shut down solar to home. My local utility confirmed it can be nearby, as long as there is a permanent sign point to it. The disconnect being discussed here is strictly for the grid feed power coming from the grid through my meter. Sol-ark has diagrams indicating that if you feed your entire 200A service into the Sol-ark , this fused switch is needed. In my case it will be indoors.

See page 8 of this link that shows it.

 
12kw_2021 said:
Hello
Yes there is a stand alone solar only AC input disconnect switch that I am installing outdoors, with instructions on the meter panel that it is around the corner and available to shut down solar to home. My local utility confirmed it can be nearby, as long as there is a permanent sign point to it. The disconnect being discussed here is strictly for the grid feed power coming from the grid through my meter. Sol-ark has diagrams indicating that if you feed your entire 200A service into the Sol-ark , this fused switch is needed. In my case it will be indoors.

See page 8 of this link that shows it.

Click to expand...
Maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't the 200A fused disconnect located outside coming off the meter serve as the solar AC input disconnect for the SA? I don't see another AC disconnect shown on their wiring diagram.
 
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