My Service Entrance Rated ATS comes with ground and neutral bonded.
Sol-Ark 15K All in One Inverter Released.
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My Service Entrance Rated ATS comes with ground and neutral bonded.
Hedges
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But the transfer switch allows you to disconnect SolArk and remove it for service.
(Still have to shut off power while disconnecting wires from SolArk, but just a simple throw of the switch for family member to restore power prior to that taking place.)
I get a similar function with 200A main breaker in panel interlocked to 100A "Generator" breaker, which is fed by my battery inverter PV system. No separate transfer switch needed, but one of the two feeds is limited by maximum 125A branch circuit breaker that could be installed.
Hedges
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If your ATS has an appropriate circuit breaker on grid input, e.g. 200A and at least 22k AIC, that protects ATS and downstream 200A breaker panel.
In the case of SolArk also connected to grid before ATS, the 200A breaker protects panel from seeing 200A + 62.5A = 262.5A.
But in that case, it doesn't provide protection for SolArk input, which also needs 200A OCP. Another 200A breaker or fuse, and disconnect, is needed for SolArk.
You have to shut power off to remove Sol-Ark, why not just connect the wires to the main panel at that time (could even have a bus bar setup for that)? I see no need for a transfer switch. If the Sol-Ark fails, you will still have service as the grid will pass through.
Ampster
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However if you have to remove the SolArk for service there will be no pass through. An interlock could serve that purpose or a temporary jumper until the SolArk is replaced. It is simply a matter of user preference and convenience.
Hedges
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True. If it continues to pass through while inverter is dead (unlike my Sunny Island), family member doesn't need to do anything prior to electrician's visit.
Electrician turns off power briefly while removing Sol-Ark and rerouting grid directly to main panel.
If feed to/from SolArk goes through a conduit "T" with matched lengths, this may be doable by pulling and stuffing wire to new location. Although, doing anything with 2/0 is a bear. Additional wires already routed, with unused ends capped, would eliminate need to re-route. Or a box to put in place of SolArk with Polaris connectors for loop back.
Good to work out the details prior to initial installation, know how power to property should work during repair.
Then leave a note inside the wiring box for electrician "Please re-wire grid straight to main panel when removing SolArk" or whatever is needed.
So things happen correctly while you're away, or after you're gone.
In my case, separate breakers feeding inverters (can't take 200A) and $100 worth of interlock and backfed breaker takes care of isolation. Just needs clear documentation for family members.
Yep. That is why I was correcting the notion that the family would be without power until they throw the transfer switch.
I will just move the wires over to main panel, or another means as I suggested is have a bus bar (Polaris connectors, etc) shared to the main panel. No need for a transfer switch as live wires going to the Sol-Ark will have to be dealt with.
RayofSunshine
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Seems like you ignored my response to your question (of my post). My response immediately precedes the post to which you are replying. It gives possible explanations for all of the above questions/concerns/postulations.
I asked for clarification. Sol-Ark responded that the 15k doesn’t need or require a fused disconnect. I think, poorly worded response, but…
If it is needed, it is by code or AHJ.
From Sol-Ark:
”If the features for your ATS complies with the code or AHJ in your area, then it will work. However, from the inverter, it is not needed or needed.
The question on whether your ATS's circuit breaker constitutes as a fused disconnect would ultimately be up to the utility or AHJ. In some cases, if
it does meet their requirements, they may require a separate fused disconnect that is standalone. Again, this is up to your AHJ or utility in your area.”
RayofSunshine
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Assuming this latter response from Sol-Ark is accurately quoted (I assume you just did a cut & paste from their email response), it seems to be another poorly worded response from them. First: "... it is not needed or needed...". I would assume they meant "required or needed"? Second: "...if it does meet their requirements, they may require a separate fused disconnect...". I would assume they meant "...if it does not meet their requirements..."?
Yep, that was a cut and paste.
NakeDiesel
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I'm in the early planning stages of building a system. I like the abilities of the sol-ark 15 and think it will fit what my needs/goals are. I will have to do this in a phased approach since money doesn't grow on trees, but the basic layout of my place is 400 amp service comes in to 2 200 amp feed thru lug panels on my pole. One panel current supplies the house and has a 30 amp breaker for my water well on it. The other panel has a 50 amp breaker for my hot tub, breakers for my patio as well and feeds on to my 40x80 shop. Everything is trenched underground from the pole. The breaker box in the house is inside built into the wall, power is fed up in conduit from the crawl space.
My first phase will be to add a generator as we can and have had week long periods of no electric in the winter, I've gotten us by with our fire place, a 5kw generator and a 10kw welder generator on a trailer but I only run them periodically not long term, I store 50 or so gallons of gas for winter time use. I'm not new to wiring, I've done most of it here on my place or had the help of my brother at one point or another for advice or bouncing sizing requirements off of, including the full shop wiring. Currently building conduit runs of rigid outside and emt inside for my 5 ton heat pump going into the spray foamed shop.
I'm kind of stuck on the first step, do I just start with an ATS and then add the 15 later and get a 20 to 24 kw propane generator? Or do I go 17/18kw generator and 15. I can manage loads to keep the 17/18kw useable but plan on adding the sol 14 at some point in the house wiring to manage the loads. The well will either need to get it's own power plant to run it offline, a plug for the generator or I will trench a new line to the house panel and handle it with the sol14 as well. Still up in the air about it. I do plan to change out the 40 gallon pressure tank for 1 maybe 2 120 gallon pressure tanks to reduce run times of the pump, but when it's power connected I use it to irrigate the garden and my 40+ fruit and nut trees in the spring through summer.
I plan on putting the 15 outside on the north side of the house, how would it fare in -15 degrees f and ice storms? That's the other issue I see with it outside. Else I'd either need to build a small building for it or put it inside the house along with the batteries.
Below are diagrams of the 2 different routes I see that I can go:
The steps I see are Generator backup, then battery backup, then 1st DC MPPT full of solar, 2nd, 3rd, etc...
My first phase will be to add a generator as we can and have had week long periods of no electric in the winter, I've gotten us by with our fire place, a 5kw generator and a 10kw welder generator on a trailer but I only run them periodically not long term, I store 50 or so gallons of gas for winter time use. I'm not new to wiring, I've done most of it here on my place or had the help of my brother at one point or another for advice or bouncing sizing requirements off of, including the full shop wiring. Currently building conduit runs of rigid outside and emt inside for my 5 ton heat pump going into the spray foamed shop.
I'm kind of stuck on the first step, do I just start with an ATS and then add the 15 later and get a 20 to 24 kw propane generator? Or do I go 17/18kw generator and 15. I can manage loads to keep the 17/18kw useable but plan on adding the sol 14 at some point in the house wiring to manage the loads. The well will either need to get it's own power plant to run it offline, a plug for the generator or I will trench a new line to the house panel and handle it with the sol14 as well. Still up in the air about it. I do plan to change out the 40 gallon pressure tank for 1 maybe 2 120 gallon pressure tanks to reduce run times of the pump, but when it's power connected I use it to irrigate the garden and my 40+ fruit and nut trees in the spring through summer.
I plan on putting the 15 outside on the north side of the house, how would it fare in -15 degrees f and ice storms? That's the other issue I see with it outside. Else I'd either need to build a small building for it or put it inside the house along with the batteries.
Below are diagrams of the 2 different routes I see that I can go:
The steps I see are Generator backup, then battery backup, then 1st DC MPPT full of solar, 2nd, 3rd, etc...
I'm probably gonna go with this one since I'll most likely be getting a second 15k to parallel.
DIY Trough
Just looking at wire troughs, they seem expensive. Are people making their own? Is wood a bad idea? Wanting one 6’ wide and 12” deep.diysolarforum.com
ex: https://www.gordonelectricsupply.co...-Strt-Sect-Hc/6777909?text=F1212G60H&lsi=true
SQUARE D RDB126 : WIREWAY 12 X 12 RAINTIGHT TROUGHS - 6 FT | Gordon Electric Supply, Inc.
SQUARE D RDB126 : WIREWAY 12 X 12 RAINTIGHT TROUGHS - 6 FT
www.gordonelectricsupply.com
I can't tell if it comes with sides but I'm guessing it does because it's described as "rain tight".
I'm probably gonna go with this one since I'll most likely be getting a second 15k to parallel.
SQUARE D RDB126 : WIREWAY 12 X 12 RAINTIGHT TROUGHS - 6 FT | Gordon Electric Supply, Inc.
SQUARE D RDB126 : WIREWAY 12 X 12 RAINTIGHT TROUGHS - 6 FT
I can't tell if it comes with sides but I'm guessing it does because it's described as "rain tight".
I bought end caps for $19 each, not rain tight , but it will be indoors. Total with shipping: $326. Someone posted caps are a little cheaper on ebay.
Hammond Mfg is a great supplier of wireways. Not sure about raintight...I use them indoors.
12" 3 to 6ft are readily available to ship at Mouser.
12" 3 to 6ft are readily available to ship at Mouser.
Can anyone comment on the accuracy (or inaccuracy ) of this Solark Schematic with respect to the ground locations?
I think it is inaccurate, and shows the grounds in the incorrect locations.
I understand that if I insert a fused 200A disconnect switch between grid input/meter, and it is now "first" in line , the main bonded ground will need to be removed from the current location (inside my main 200a panel). I have also been informed that every single bare copper wire in the main panel will need to be removed from the neutral shared bus bar inside the panel, and a stand alone new bus bar will need to be installed inside my main panel, and all the ground wires located there.
I will also need to remove the two ground wires (one goes to my copper pipes, the other one goes out back to two ground rods) from the main panel and relocate same into the new fused disconnect.
Lastly in my case since my grid feed enters the back of my main panel, I will need to relocate my main panel about 6 inches to the left to allow access to the grid 200A input feed, as it is against code to add any polaris lugs or wire splices of that feed inside the main panel. I cannot even just take the existing wire and run it out the side of the panel, it needs to enter a stand alone distribution box of some kind.
Schematic from latest solark manual below for comment/feedback.
Lastly, if goal is to feed the main 200a meter feed to the fused disconnect, then the transfer switch, then the solark, then back to the main panel, won't that require using 4/0 Al wire for all those connections, as anything AL smaller than that will not support 200A.
Thanks for feedback, my install is getting more complex as I learn more about NEC code.
I think it is inaccurate, and shows the grounds in the incorrect locations.
I understand that if I insert a fused 200A disconnect switch between grid input/meter, and it is now "first" in line , the main bonded ground will need to be removed from the current location (inside my main 200a panel). I have also been informed that every single bare copper wire in the main panel will need to be removed from the neutral shared bus bar inside the panel, and a stand alone new bus bar will need to be installed inside my main panel, and all the ground wires located there.
I will also need to remove the two ground wires (one goes to my copper pipes, the other one goes out back to two ground rods) from the main panel and relocate same into the new fused disconnect.
Lastly in my case since my grid feed enters the back of my main panel, I will need to relocate my main panel about 6 inches to the left to allow access to the grid 200A input feed, as it is against code to add any polaris lugs or wire splices of that feed inside the main panel. I cannot even just take the existing wire and run it out the side of the panel, it needs to enter a stand alone distribution box of some kind.
Schematic from latest solark manual below for comment/feedback.
Lastly, if goal is to feed the main 200a meter feed to the fused disconnect, then the transfer switch, then the solark, then back to the main panel, won't that require using 4/0 Al wire for all those connections, as anything AL smaller than that will not support 200A.
Thanks for feedback, my install is getting more complex as I learn more about NEC code.
I had similar question: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/did-i-create-two-neutral-ground-points.44711/#post-565456
Hi
I see that there is agreement about the location of the bonded ground, so.. this diagram is not correct. I have sent same to solark asking for clarification, would hope that they are able to clarify , or correct the drawing, or just tell me it is a cartoon, not meant to be followed literally
Egl_81
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I called Sol-ark with this exact question since their manual indicates the ground neutral bond at the main panel instead of the first disconnecting means. They said that they would recommend placing it at the first disconnect instead of what the manual says. So yes all the ground wires currently on your neutral/ground bus bar need to be relocated to a separate ground bar in your main panel. Don't forget to remove the green grounding screw out on your neutral bus bar as well.
Edit: 4/0 Aluminum or 2/0 copper for 200A
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Hedges
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I don't see the need/benefit of moving neutral/ground bond from breaker panel to disconnect.
Maybe code requires it, maybe not, but I don't know why it should.
I could have an isolated inverter/generator feeding a breaker panel that contains neutral-ground bond.
Or, inverter/generator could provide the bond, and breaker panel keeps them isolated?
Seems to me, grid, service entrance, disconnect switch is no difference.
Only L1 and L2 are being disconnected. Neutral feeds through the switch. Ground feeds through the switch. Works the same wherever bonding occurs.
The meter itself is a disconnect switch; utility can unplug it. Does that mean neutral/ground bond is required to occur inside or prior to meter socket?
Maybe code requires it, maybe not, but I don't know why it should.
I could have an isolated inverter/generator feeding a breaker panel that contains neutral-ground bond.
Or, inverter/generator could provide the bond, and breaker panel keeps them isolated?
Seems to me, grid, service entrance, disconnect switch is no difference.
Only L1 and L2 are being disconnected. Neutral feeds through the switch. Ground feeds through the switch. Works the same wherever bonding occurs.
The meter itself is a disconnect switch; utility can unplug it. Does that mean neutral/ground bond is required to occur inside or prior to meter socket?
Egl_81
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I would think that if you leave the ground bond at the main panel, then current on the neutral can also flow through the ground wire connecting the main panel to the disconnect (and through any equipment in between).
Hedges
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?
If there is only a single location where neutral bonds to ground, no current flows through ground wire.
If neutral shorts to ground in a second location, neutral current splits and flows partially through ground wire. If after a GFCI, that trips and opens circuit. But most circuits, and the utility feed, don't have GFCI (in the U.S.; in Europe, common to have 30 mA GFCI feeding entire house.)
If there is only a single location where neutral bonds to ground, no current flows through ground wire.
If neutral shorts to ground in a second location, neutral current splits and flows partially through ground wire. If after a GFCI, that trips and opens circuit. But most circuits, and the utility feed, don't have GFCI (in the U.S.; in Europe, common to have 30 mA GFCI feeding entire house.)
Carlos_Sol-Ark
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In this scenario, the Sol-Ark would cover your load and charge your batteries with PV before selling to the grid. It will prioritize battery charging to ensure you have the fullest battery bank possible in the event of an outage or to get you through the night when no PV is available.
Hedges My understanding is it is a code requirement that the bonded ground is in the first grid connect box, whatever that happens to be. There are several other sources that appear to confirm this as code. Since I have an inspector who will check my install I don't feel like I have any choice in the matter. He also insisted that my 20 year old home needs a second ground rod 6 feet from the one installed outside . New code I guess?
So... I think folks who install the new 15K and like the idea of eliminating the need for a "critical needs panel" should learn (as I have ) that there is no free lunch, and adding something that appears simple like a fused cut off switch between grid and your main panel is a bigger, more expensive job that involves installing new bus bars in the main panel, removing and relocating every bare copper ground away from the shared ground neutral bus bar in the main panel.
In addition (in my case) you cannot assume that once the 4/0 main feed wires in your main panel are disconnected, you can then have them exit that panel, or be spliced to the longer wire required to connect to the new fused cut off switch. Code doesn't allow that either.
So in addition to the ground bonding change, and moving all the bare grounds inside the main panel, you also need to move the main panel (my feed is encased in 20 feet of pvc buried in the garage floor.) to the left to allow unfettered access to the grid power feed through hole and wires, then install a wireway, or box to make the splices needed to connect the new fused cut off switch.
And yes.. I am waiting on a reply from Solark about the "cartoon" schematic they include (#3 with xfer switch in my case) and expect that they will admit that the bonded ground location staying in the main panel is just plain wrong.
Hope this helps others who are going down this path.
Thanks for the replies confirming what I have learned.
Now back to running 4/0 AL wire through conduit and raceways.
Anyone available to come over and help me lift the 140LB Solark onto the cleat on the wall. My go to neighbor help is on vacation.
CPU
Hedges
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That would be the utility meter?
(In my case, the underground feed goes into a box with utility meter, has two busbars, L1 & L2, that 200A Murray breaker plugs onto, has one Neutral busbar with screw to box. Two lugs, one for ground rod and one for neutral wire.)
Simple meter socket of course just lets neutral feed through, doesn't connect.
How does a 140 pound weakling hang a 140 pound inverter?
When I hung my original 2.5 kW SWR-2500U inverters 17 years ago, I was probably stronger and they were only 75 lbs. I was able to carry them up a stepladder and hang them head high. Taking them down to upgrade was doable, but difficult When I hung 75 lb transformerless 10000TLUS under the deck...
diysolarforum.com
The nice teamster truck driver that delivered some stuff, agreed to take 5 minutes and followed me down to my basement, and helped lift the 15k onto the french cleat, so that part of my day went well. Prior to his arrival/help I was investigating use of my engine hoist or my cable come-along bolted to basement ceiling, with a cargo net to support the solark lift effort.That would be the utility meter?
(In my case, the underground feed goes into a box with utility meter, has two busbars, L1 & L2, that 200A Murray breaker plugs onto, has one Neutral busbar with screw to box. Two lugs, one for ground rod and one for neutral wire.)
Simple meter socket of course just lets neutral feed through, doesn't connect.
How does a 140 pound weakling hang a 140 pound inverter?
When I hung my original 2.5 kW SWR-2500U inverters 17 years ago, I was probably stronger and they were only 75 lbs. I was able to carry them up a stepladder and hang them head high. Taking them down to upgrade was doable, but difficult When I hung 75 lb transformerless 10000TLUS under the deck...
I am now wondering if I go to my outside garage wall , and intercept the 200A meter supplied home run going through the cement and conduit into my basement and insert the fused cut off switch there, does that change anything I can do downstream?
Is my main panel now a "sub panel" that I can splice the 4/0 al feed wires inside?
Would be great if I now treat my 200A main panel as a "sub panel" enclosure, and insert polaris lugs to make the main feed wires longer to go to the extra equipment I am installing in basement? (Xfer switch, Solark).
Figuring out some way to AVOID having to relocate the entire 200A main panel, that meets code would be very nice.
Or is the code such that when your main feed enters a large 200A panel it can only go one place , on the top lugs of the panel, right next to the main 200A circuit breaker no extension or re-direction allowed.
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This was my concern as well. I assumed it did need to be outside and accessible (likely close to the meter), but based on 12kw_2021's intention of mounting his inside, I questioned if this wasn't in fact the case. It didn't sound like his inspector (or utility?) had an issue with it being inside. The SA manual doesn't seem to offer any direction in this regard.
The issue I have with it being located outside next to the meter is, anyone with nefarious intentions could easily disconnect power to the dwelling, potentially disabling some security systems if the BU system (SA) was bypassed for some reason. Either way, I'd prefer to mount the disconnect inside if it's not an issue with the inspector or utility.
It is not a requirement by Sol-Ark. They put that in their diagrams as it may be a requirement by your Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).
The house I’m in has the meters inside as an addition to the house was made many years ago. I hope they don’t make me go through the expense of having to move them outside.
The house I’m in has the meters inside as an addition to the house was made many years ago. I hope they don’t make me go through the expense of having to move them outside.
What makes me question if it needs to be outside is, killing the disconnect does not disable the inverter or power to the dwelling (assuming the SA is actively working with PV or battery BU), so ER could pull the meter and have the same outcome.
Hedges
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One fine day in New York, the power went out. People hurried home before dark, knowing what was to come...
Your alarm system, and communications, could be powered by 12V SLA, with AC battery charger and DC coupled PV. That would provide triple redundant power for many hours.
I agree, the concern can be mitigated to a large degree (especially with the SA providing BU power), but the opportunity is still there for someone to disconnect from the grid with the flip of a switch, which I don't like for several reasons... Including the house can be occasionally unattended for weeks during one season.
It was a good video, but it made me scream out "single point of failure" as I went to bed...
I wish someone would come out with a good modular, compartmentalized system rather than this focus on all-in-ones. Having modules that plug together makes it so much easier to make sure one problem doesn't take out everything.
I wish someone would come out with a good modular, compartmentalized system rather than this focus on all-in-ones. Having modules that plug together makes it so much easier to make sure one problem doesn't take out everything.
eXodus
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wondered the same thing.
In two of my properties I got a ground-neutral bond at the service entrance outside at the pole - AND another one the main panel. (100ft apart)
I think the separation of Ground and Neutral at the main panel OR service entrance came either in 1999 or 2008 NEC revision.
When installing something like the Solar ARK - I could just install it between those two ground and neutral bonds. When switching being on Solar Power - the Ground and Neutral from the Panel would be use - and on Grid power the Ground Neutral from the entrance ? (both?)
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More like a Viktron or Motor Control Center-- something that handles obsolescence gracefully.
Hedges
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If nothing branches off from the service entrance, I wouldn't worry about it because nothing connected to the portion of ground that might carry neutral current. So long as the ground at main panel is solid.
If I have a utility drop from overhead line, I think that is 3-wire 120/240V split-phase, and the neutral gets grounded and at my combined service entrance/meter/main panel. Neighbor's house would be the same. So "Neutral" on the pole is grounded at both our houses. Some current could flow from my ground rod to his, not much because wire is lower resistance, but I wouldn't have done that on my property (similar with yours except two wires neutral and ground in parallel.) If neutral utility wire came loose at my house, then up to 120V is applied between our ground rods.
When you add SolArk, where would it be located? Adjacent to main panel? You'll want a disconnect and OCP before it.
Hedges
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In video above, Will said SolArk could go between main panel and meter without a disconnect.
But inside the SolArk, the breaker (4 poles, 2 paralleled for each of L1 and L2) is on the "Load" connection, not "Grid"
Grid input (bottom terminals) goes to relay (below fan).
You want a fused disconnect on the outside, before SolArk (also lets you switch off power to remove for service).
Outdoor rated? But vent on top has no baffle. Rain will fall straight in, hope the exposed components (heatsink, any fan?) are OK for that. Debris would fall in too and start plugging things. I think it ought to have a rain cap. I would suggest putting an awning over it, high enough to not interfere with rising hot air.
eXodus
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My Meter box outside at the Pole has a disconnect (200A breaker) (and space for 4 breakers, which I don't use).
Then I got another 200A disconnect (switch no OCD) at the wall outside the house before going into the structure.
Then it goes to the main panel where there is another 200A Breaker to shut of the panel itself. Not sure if this is considered a "disconnect"
I was thinking about putting the Sol-Ark either on the outside of the house next to the Emergency Disconnect, (after the 200A disconnect) or inside before the panel (which on a wiring diagram would be the same, just the wire length would be different)
Was build to old Code and when I bought it in 2014, passed the electric inspection. So it's not wrong, just weird.
