Lead carbon and the cycle claims at 50% DOD?

Pukehūrepo said:

There's a lot of confusion around lead-carbon. The biggest reason is that carbon is used in different ways, with different results. I'm no expert, but as I understand it has uses of at least:

1) as an additive in various forms to the electrolyte.

2) as a kind of shield over the cathode plate, providing a physical matrix.

3) as a separate, secondary cathode. This configuration seems the most interesting. It results in the battery taking on significant super-capacitor characteristics, with some tremendous and well independently tested advantages.

This third type was developed at CSIRO, the Australian Governments science research agency.

It was then spun off as a business entity, branded as 'UltraBattery' (/eyeroll) and they went about finding national licensees to manufacture the technology.

And tried to convince the world that PbC ultra batteries were the obvious replacement for NiCd batteries in electric cars. (/facepalm)

And around then of course Lithium 'happened'. And later the business was sold cheap, then the purchaser effectively shut it down completely a couple of years after that.

It appears that the situation now is that there are a few licencees still ticking over, who obviously want to protect their patch, but with no licensor enforcing the IP rights globally, the legal situation is murky.

Step up a few competent Chinese manufacturers who have realised that there is an opportunity here

And many many many Chinese battery manufacturers who use the words 'lead carbon' in their product descriptions and titles for regular AGM/VRLA because SEO.

Anyhow, that's enough for one post. My advice when searching for lead-carbon is to look for references to 'ultra-battery' or ultra- or super-capacitor in searches and on sites.

After a ton of research, I recently purchased 8x 200Ah 12v PbC at about US$350 per battery FOB Qingdao.
Datasheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MerAE4sKDNURqRWWMckT9Vfi57UReP_m/view?usp=drivesdk

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Snowynorth said:

Very interesting. I'm going to do some reading on this. As of now LifePo is where I'm at. I can keep it and the inverter etc, warm enough during our days of ultra cold weather.

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rfbuehler said:

I'd like to hop in with a Question. I am trying to decide on a storage system. Have not made up my mind yet. Each has +/-.

I am looking also at the Northstar Blue+ 190. I would put in a min. of 16 and part of the equation is how to house them. I can't justify 2300 for a rack. I've looked a building a rack using UniStrut but that is coming in at close to $700 by the time your said and done.

Does anyone have any thoughts how to shelf / rack these batteries in an economical manner. As stated earlier in this thread weight is an issue. I looked at a 2 post rack (23") with a center weighted shelf that will hold 550 lb. but the shelves cost about $150 each (shelves plus rack and again > $800).

Thanks for your thoughts in advance.

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Snowynorth said:

Hi all. I've been here reading various topics for quite some time before signing up. We are building off grid. I am leaning towards lead carbon due to the sometimes extremely cold winter weather here, and the location of my upcoming battery bank. The components and batteries will go into a well insulated 10x10 shed, with a small direct vent propane wall heater. The shed has wiring already trenched to our panel location, and to the cabin. The propane is roughed in from our tank to feed the wall heater and a future propane back up generator. I have a gas inverter gen for now. In case the wall heater fails at some time when we aren't there, which will be most of the winter, lead carbon seems to be the best, for both decent cycle life and ability to sit dormant in the cold for a couple weeks or more without power impute or draw.

Cycles, from 1800 to over 3000 @ 50% dod? (that seems to be a big variation). A few other specs seem to have some large variations. Are some of the suppliers over stating, or being conservative? I'm trying to do some math and come up with the best bang for my bucks.

2 volt narada or sacred sun would be great, but I'm starting with a smaller bank for a few years. 12v, for a 48v system due to part time use, and finances.

Here is a small sample of cycle claims. Most claim discharge as low as-40 c or f. In our area I'm not concerned about any of the high ambient temp ratings I've read.

Sol-ark carbon agm- 3000 cycles @ 50% DOD, max charge 140a 100a recommended, Charge temp -10f -23c 7+ years off grid

Northstar Blue- 2050 cycles @ 50% DOD, max charge current "no limit" ?? nothing on charge temp, just "operating temp" of -40
Northstar claims lower cycles than sol-ark, but 15+ year design life vs sol-ark 7+ years off grid 12 years on grid.
Sol-ark and Northstar sure do look at lot alike, other then color. I think the 210 vs 230 ah rating might explain the slight weight difference.
Enersys makes Northstar, and I'm guessing sol-ark

Canbat 2500+ cycles @ 50% DOD, Max charge 63amps, charge temp 0c 32f

Switch energy- 2800 cycles @50% dod, max charge, 40a, charge temp -20c -4 f

Any experience with lead carbon would be appreciated.

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rfbuehler said:

What many always forget that time = money. DIY batteries are a great idea, you can repair them when the BMS dies. but what you save in $ is so minimal over buying EG4's or other rack mounted batteries that it is questionable economics. I am looking at the Northstar batteries because there is no electronics to fail. If you get enough battery you can prevent over draining the batteries and by doing that you will extend the life. BUT also you will have plenty of reserve when needed.

I want a clean battery solution. The batteries are not a problem proper use of real-estate is. As stated earlier I am looking at 16 batteries minimum with probably 24 or 32 as the final battery bank. 1600AH at 48V. If I build a battery box to house them it will take up half my room and will save about 50% over my unistrut design. I have 16 batteries in a 24x24 footprint I'm impressed with carbon lead acid batteries I mean they carry the Empire ratings that to date only lifep 04 did plus they function in cold weather and charge them in the cold weather plus plus you can use them in the automobile that I mean absolutely ideal for the van dweller because you get your cranking amps and you get your amp hours so depending on the more practical than than the lithium iron phosphate but I was looking at prices and I'm going to tell you 16 batteries would be quite pricy I expected them to improve it's just not the nature of the game to start trying to improve things when you've got competition what if they design these a long time ago well then with him may have not gotten off of the ground there's other battery technologies on the way but I think this carbon lead battery will probably catch on and probably really swing the pendulum

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midahar said:

decide also makes carbon lead and their prices fare better than others except for the shipping cost because they have to be shipped from Europe unfortunately that puts them out there in the price range of lifep 04

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Snowynorth said:

Hi all. I've been here reading various topics for quite some time before signing up. We are building off grid. I am leaning towards lead carbon due to the sometimes extremely cold winter weather here, and the location of my upcoming battery bank. The components and batteries will go into a well insulated 10x10 shed, with a small direct vent propane wall heater. The shed has wiring already trenched to our panel location, and to the cabin. The propane is roughed in from our tank to feed the wall heater and a future propane back up generator. I have a gas inverter gen for now. In case the wall heater fails at some time when we aren't there, which will be most of the winter, lead carbon seems to be the best, for both decent cycle life and ability to sit dormant in the cold for a couple weeks or more without power impute or draw.

Cycles, from 1800 to over 3000 @ 50% dod? (that seems to be a big variation). A few other specs seem to have some large variations. Are some of the suppliers over stating, or being conservative? I'm trying to do some math and come up with the best bang for my bucks.

2 volt narada or sacred sun would be great, but I'm starting with a smaller bank for a few years. 12v, for a 48v system due to part time use, and finances.

Here is a small sample of cycle claims. Most claim discharge as low as-40 c or f. In our area I'm not concerned about any of the high ambient temp ratings I've read.

Sol-ark carbon agm- 3000 cycles @ 50% DOD, max charge 140a 100a recommended, Charge temp -10f -23c 7+ years off grid

Northstar Blue- 2050 cycles @ 50% DOD, max charge current "no limit" ?? nothing on charge temp, just "operating temp" of -40
Northstar claims lower cycles than sol-ark, but 15+ year design life vs sol-ark 7+ years off grid 12 years on grid.
Sol-ark and Northstar sure do look at lot alike, other then color. I think the 210 vs 230 ah rating might explain the slight weight difference.
Enersys makes Northstar, and I'm guessing sol-ark

Canbat 2500+ cycles @ 50% DOD, Max charge 63amps, charge temp 0c 32f

Switch energy- 2800 cycles @50% dod, max charge, 40a, charge temp -20c -4 f

Any experience with lead carbon would be appreciated.

Click to expand...