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Exceeding voltage or amps on SCC

You can do whatever you want.
Yes, I like to do what I want. Inside the limit of the what is socially acceptable/legal and with knowledge. There is exactly the point of this thread and of my questioning: there often have a fuzzy around overpaneling some inverters, so it's why I ask for knowledge.
 
The array you propose to do has Isc well over 10A
Ah! this one. So 400A for 40 parallel strings under big sun.

Yes, my point is that there is no Isc on your inverter and no operating current even, just a wattage. That’s a big unprofessional red flag on the part of the vendor.
It's a 250$ chinese inverter. A MPP clone, so of course I don't expect miracle on the professional side.
But when I will want to buy an high quality inverter I will want to fully understand if this inverter will be able to take EV battery as solar input.
Because it's simply so nice to have a huge battery on wheels to energize the house if need.
 
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Ah! this one. So 400A for 40 parallel strings under big sun.
Yes, big sun. And there's ways of covering/shadow the panels to still allow 3000W production but with considerably higher current. When you cover panels, cells go into blocking mode. For mono cut panels with 3 bypass diodes this means voltage will disappear at 1/3 chunks. When you have 400A Isc, the PV are no longer inherently preventing the inverter from pulling high current at lower voltage, you need the inverter to be designed properly to handle it. And this is captured in either the Isc or max DC wattage on the spec sheet.

EDIT: The way to think about why the voltage changes in that case is, basically 1/3 of the cells will get deleted at a time (assuming mono cut). The voltage is determined by how many cells you have in series, as well as the device characteristics of each individual cell.

But when I will want to buy an high quality inverter I will want to fully understand if this inverter will be able to take EV battery as solar input.

There's a good chance vendor will reject your warranty claim if you blow one up. Might be better to DC couple via an SCC so that you blow up only part of the system at once...

I was just skimming through some Victron SCC documentation, and they explicitly say, don't use it as a DC charger from a battery, because there are some edge cases that will damage the SCC. They didn't go into it (maybe someone on a forum has posted about why).
 
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I don't know about the law where you are but here the law on installing solar PV requires you to remain within the manufacturer's specifications.
Yeah, same here for sure. Sad there is absolutely no manufacturer's specifications who allowing EV to power an house because there is no such product available right now (some companies start to show prototypes or sale product in limited quantity/place).
It's always strange to be too early on his time and look at the statu quo in place and waiting for change.
Some time I feel like a guy few decade ago who is trying to warn peoples to stop to smoke at the hospital and public places. Now it's fully ban and barely socially acceptable to smoke at all.

On the socially acceptable side, I bet my neighbor's likes considerably the fact that energize my house during an outage don't imply a lot of noise and toxic exhaust fumes.
 
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When you cover panels, cells go into blocking mode. For mono cut panels with 3 bypass diodes this means voltage will disappear at 1/3 chunks. When you have 400A Isc, the PV are no longer inherently preventing the inverter from pulling high current at lower voltage, you need the inverter to be designed properly to handle it. And this is captured in either the Isc or max DC wattage on the spec sheet.
Ok, I start to see the potential problem. It seem to me that it's doable to do a test and connect my inverter to a 96V battery and see if it try to suck 30A to reach 3 kW or if it will simply stop sucking amps around 12.5A.
I only have 1.5kW array (4 panels) to do a test, so even if I connect panels in parallel that will only give less than 20A at around 80V (inverter take 90-450V).
 
I am guessing the savior here is the more less constant battery voltage, thus pinning the MPPT to a narrow current window:

Solar-Cell-IV-curve-with-MPP.png
 
thus pinning the MPPT to a narrow current window
What do you mean by that? For the battery connected to inverter case it would likely push the MPPT to operate in a narrow voltage band, and it would probably just draw the manageable current needed for its output rating. Though the SCC manufacturers probably won’t recommend it still.

For PV case, if you have several in series there is still a wide voltage operating range over which the MPPT can operate and buck the voltage down to the charging voltage.
 
And this is where I continually learn. Voltage is critical to an electric circuit, the amps is load driven, thus a device can only pull as many amps as it's load is designed. A short to ground (fault) is a design meant to handle ALL amps it could be fed, and is very good at consuming it.

The inverter is a special beast, that I recognize. Its goal is to reach its max output power (Volts/Amps) in watts. It juggles volts and amps to reach that point.

The bigger question is something we all acknowledge but don't like to admit that there are inverters in the market that don't do what they should. They are not to what we constitute quality design even from well known manufacturers. That's the rub, that's the hesitation.

There are some inverters that say 360v@15amps=5100watts output. However, won't they don't tell you is if you place a load on the inverter of 10,000 watts, the inverter will either try to grab more volts or amps well above the input limit to try to meet the load and go poof. These are fixed inverters, no smarts, no limits. So if you provide 100amps to the input, the inverter will grab all 100amps,*volts and try to output the watts *IF* there is a load demanding it.

My batteries come in next week, the rest of my circuit arrives this weekend. I reached out to Huawei but given the current political landscape, I doubt I'll get a reply. I'll have a quick disconnect in my circuit, a 20amp fuse inline to the inverter along with measuring devices at each critical part of my circuit. I'll hook it up, throw the lever, and see how things go boom.
Translated into a plumbing analogy. (how my Electrical Engineering prof explained it)

Volts are pressure, Amps are volume.

Too much pressure on a valve or pipe, and they will fail. (burst)
You can have all the volume you want, but without pressure, the water won't move. (like a lake)

You can have high pressure and low volume and do work. (like a power washer)
Or, have high volume at lower pressure and do the same work (buckets of water)
(an explanation of P = IV)

The same pressure is behind all the taps in your house, and as long as that pressure doesn't exceed the ratings of the pipes/fittings/valves, you won't have any leaks.
Likewise, you can open a faucet a little bit to wet your toothbrush, or lot to fill a bathtub.
You are limited by the maximum flow rate from the water source. (pressure x volume)
If you pull too much volume, pressure will drop.

Back to electrical,
You have a certain voltage (pressure) on a circuit. If that voltage doesn't exceed the ratings of the components of that circuit, it wont 'Leak' across things that it shouldn't, causing magic smoke.
Likewise the circuit will only pull the amount of watts it requires to do its job. Whether its a 15w phone charger or a 1500w hairdryer.
Or a 3000w MPPT SCC.

As long as the Voc doesn't exceed the max input voltage of the equipment, the panels can't push the power into the SCC or AIO, anymore than your ability to control the tap to brush your teeth is determined by whether you have a 1/2 inch watermain or a 3inch.
Overpanelling is fine, as long as the Voc is within limit.
 
What do you mean by that? For the battery connected to inverter case it would likely push the MPPT to operate in a narrow voltage band, and it would probably just draw the manageable current needed for its output rating. Though the SCC manufacturers probably won’t recommend it still.

For PV case, if you have several in series there is still a wide voltage operating range over which the MPPT can operate and buck the voltage down to the charging voltage.
I think we're on the same page, which is the battery voltage doesn't vary much in comparison to a PV, thus the MPPT operates in a narrow voltage range, and thus narrow current range. My guess how the MPPT circuitry works is to vary the input voltage, since the PVs are a current source, to hunt for that max power (VxI) point. The problem would arise when the battery voltage drops at low charge state, then the current would rise dramatically. At which point the circuit breaker should trip. But hopefully Yabert would do an experiment, of lowering the PVDC input voltage, to let us know whether his PowerMr inverter would max out at the 3kw PV-DC input current. He would want to know in case his Bolt's pack voltage drop, though the Bolt's BMS would probably shut-down before then.
 
Overpanelling is fine, as long as the Voc is within limit.
I think this is correct. Over panelling will just result in "inverter clipping". My M215 Enphase micros clip daily, as each is connected to a 250w panel
 
As long as the Voc doesn't exceed the max input voltage of the equipment, the panels can't push the power into the SCC or AIO, anymore than your ability to control the tap to brush your teeth is determined by whether you have a 1/2 inch watermain or a 3inch.
Overpanelling is fine, as long as the Voc is within limit.

What happens if shading / bypass diode activation halves Vmp? Then Imp will double, for the same output current. If the SCC does not prevent limit its current in that state there could be a problem.
 
What happens if shading / bypass diode activation halves Vmp? Then Imp will double, for the same output current. If the SCC does not prevent limit its current in that state there could be a problem.
Why would Imp double?
there is less wattage being produced.
The other panels can only provide their rated Voltage and Amperage (=Wattage), so the overall capability of the array will drop.
The MPPT will be in the same situation as it would be in a 7 panel array if panel #8 is shaded (assuming an 8 panel array). Maybe there's enough wattage to provide full charging current, but likely not depending on how overpanelled the array is...

Current is pulled, Voltage is pushed.
 
Why would Imp double?
there is less wattage being produced.

This thread is mostly about discussing obscene overpaneling situation. Imagine 5x overpaneling.

If the SCC seeks to keep charging output constant then it would double the V_imp. Because the battery can pull “infinite” (limited by SCC config/design). So then the charger will pull from the array. Hopefully it limits itself and doesn’t explode when the array has an obscenely high Isc
 
This thread is mostly about discussing obscene overpaneling situation. Imagine 5x overpaneling.

If the SCC seeks to keep charging output constant then it would double the V_imp. Because the battery can pull “infinite” (limited by SCC config/design). So then the charger will pull from the array. Hopefully it limits itself and doesn’t explode when the array has an obscenely high Isc
Is it sufficient then, to prevent over current with an inline DC circuit breaker to trip near inverter max current ? say in Yabert's case: his inverter is 3000w, his obscene overpanelling (ala battery) is 360vdc, so would 10A breaker enough for run-away scenario ?
 
Is it sufficient then, to prevent over current with an inline DC circuit breaker to trip near inverter max current ? say in Yabert's case: his inverter is 3000w, his obscene overpanelling (ala battery) is 360vdc, so would 10A breaker enough for run-away scenario ?

Battery is more well behaved because the voltage will be 360vdc except when discharged to the point where it really should not be used anymore. I think some kind of PLC that monitors voltage then cuts off the inverter has a chance of doing the right thing here, since the V-I behavior when using a battery is quite predictable and the battery will mightily fight any effort of MPPT to deviate from 360v. A DC rated OCPD seems fine.

For solar panels I think the OCPD could trip during normal operation if the Vmpp drops to a sufficient point. It depends on how the MPPT is designed. The instantaneous behavior of MPPT is much less predictable.
 
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Some inverters are designed for connecting to higher voltage DC batteries.
One of the biggest advantage for me to have a 60 kWh battery on wheel on the driveway is I can have a small/low cost battery inside the house connect to the solar system.
I think an high voltage DC battery and inverter could work, but are you award of any small/affordable HV battery and inverter available?
If the cost of those HV stuff is really high, it could be tempting to simply use regularly available/affordable 48V equipment's and have a large battery inside the house and kill the idea to connect the EV to the house... That an important waste of resource's, but still financially logic.
 
I think with EV I would be waiting for affordable 2-way EV chargers which enable V2H/G capability. At present they are expensive and only viable with limited EV models.

I'm not that up on what inverters might be suitable but there are grid tied systems, e.g. Fronius and others which use a higher voltage DC battery. There's even a thread on here with someone who just connected a Leaf pack to one.

I can't imagine any such system would be small, but depends on what you mean by small. Fronius Gen24 inverters are in the 5-10 kW range. Anything used by a BYD HV battery for instance.

Affordable is also a subjective measure so i can't answer that.
 
This thread is mostly about discussing obscene overpaneling situation. Imagine 5x overpaneling.

If the SCC seeks to keep charging output constant then it would double the V_imp. Because the battery can pull “infinite” (limited by SCC config/design). So then the charger will pull from the array. Hopefully it limits itself and doesn’t explode when the array has an obscenely high Isc
Again, I = PV...
There will be a maximum amount of power drawn by the load.
Be it a battery charger, inverter, or hairdryer.

The load is your constraint.
a 3000w inverter will only pull 3000w (plus overhead), likewise a 50a battery charger is only going to pull enough to provide 50a at battery voltage.

ergo; 3000w at 360v is 8.4a. 3000w at 240v is 12.5...

Even if you have unlimited amperage available (you don't, each shaded panel drops available amperage), eventually you will lose enough voltage that the load will stop operating. (you can't start my car with a 2v battery, even a 2190Ah Surrette wired directly to the starter motor)
 
Shading to the point of bypass or forcing operation at a lower voltage will not drop current.

With overpaneling there is plenty of available current.

With the lower voltage battery case there is very high available current.

If the inverter does not do input limiting eventually it will destructively exceed the current limit of some component.
 
There is an expanding range of used EV traction batteries, different inverter models, differently programmed’ lilygo circuit boards being tested by the developers on ‘open source’. The lily go (so?) is flashed with code to emulate what’s normally accomplished in an EV to acces the traction battery and utilize the original Bms. The first set up I saw working by the original developer - programmer- EV technician, is on YouTube, see’ Dala’s EV repair.’ The open source project is on ‘GitHub’. EV batteries pulled from cars because of degradation to 80 or 60% capacity are fine for home storage.
Lot’s of caution required here though. ( Did you buy a crashed or abused battery pack? Exposure to high voltage d/c etc). He used a 40kwh Nissan Leaf battery and a Fronios inverter in this first version.
 
I suppose that stuffing is not the correct term. I look at it like when you have a tire and you just keep pushing more air into it then eventually it will blow. I think that wattmaters post sums it up more clearly than I attempted to do. Especially the post ISC DC input ratings. The job of the Charge Controller is to produce as much power as possible without burning itself up. If your panels are making 100 amps and your Charge Controller ISC limit is 15 Amps then I do not recommend doing it. The way around it is to put your panels in series which boosts the voltage and also keeps the current low. Wattage is a simple Volts times Current. So if you have 350 volts and 15 amps for the panels then you have 5250 watts. Now if you are using a 48 Volt battery then the Charge Controller takes that 5250 watts and Converts it to say 50 Volts at 105 amps. If your charge controller is only a 80 amp Charge Controller then the maximum current that it will produce is 80 amps. So you would only be able to use 4000 watts of the 5250 watts.
Any idea where I could get a thorough explanation of how the CC (physically) manages the input current? looking at my victron 100/50, spec sheet says do not exceed 60 amps input - aside from pulling it apart, I would like to know the physical mechanism that clips/diverts/ignores/wastes the excess incoming current.
Running 2400w into it at the moment (70v x 36 amps), works great on cloudy days, charge controller noticably hotter to the touch but with active cooling keeps it comfortably warm. Is it simply an internal heatsink type deely that diverts and bleeds off all that excess incoming PV current?

Have noticed even with a ridiculous amount of wattage available, the app shows only the combination it wants ie - 60v x 12amps (700w) to run at its maximum 50 amps charge. So, I'm assuming whatever bit of metal is in there has been tested to stand up to 60amps trying to bash its way in.
Cheers
 
Any idea where I could get a thorough explanation of how the CC (physically) manages the input current? looking at my victron 100/50, spec sheet says do not exceed 60 amps input - aside from pulling it apart, I would like to know the physical mechanism that clips/diverts/ignores/wastes the excess incoming current.

It just goes open circuit or (more likely, if some charge current is still needed) drives the voltage / current to a portion of the solar module (silicon magic) characteristic curve where the power generated takes a nosedive in efficiency. And the efficiency losses are typically pushed into the solar cells so there is no extra heating in the SCC. Usually an MPPT seeks to latch onto the maximum power point but if the battery doesn't need it it can operate at a different point.
 
It just goes open circuit or (more likely, if some charge current is still needed) drives the voltage / current to a portion of the solar module (silicon magic) characteristic curve where the power generated takes a nosedive in efficiency. And the efficiency losses are typically pushed into the solar cells so there is no extra heating in the SCC. Usually an MPPT seeks to latch onto the maximum power point but if the battery doesn't need it it can operate at a different point.
My thought on the matter is that the MPPT controllers are just that. A Maximum Power Point Tracker. A typical Solar Panel does not produce any usable wattage when the panel is disconnected.

This means that when you do not have a load on the Solar panel then there is no power being generated. When you put a load on the panel. the voltage on the panel is reduced and then it starts to produce power. The MPPT Controller looks for the ideal voltage to produce the most power.

If you are producing more power than the MPPT controller is capable of then it just uses a different voltage that produces less power and the panels become less efficient.

It is just the way the Solar Panels are built. In order to produce the maximum amount of power then then need to operated at the ideal voltage which produces the most current. Ohms law states that Voltage time Current is equal to wattage.

For a wind turbine, all of the power the turbine generates must be used so they have a load resistor that engages to use the power. On the grid all of the power must be used. If the power on the grid or the wind turbine is not used then bad things happen.

Solar panels are totally different. You can put a solar panel out in the sun and not connect the leads and nothing bad will happen. Basically, a MPPT controller just raises the voltage of the panels up to the point where they produce less current. If you have a Victron MPPT 250/100 amp like I do, then it will only produce 100 amps of current and will let the rest be wasted.
 

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