The media's ignorance on solar panel life - BBC

I just read this daft article from the BBC:


Solar panels don't have a life of only 25 to 30 years. They will still work, except they will have lost some of their efficiency and may 'only' be giving out 80% or maybe even only 70% of their original rated output. There don't appear to be a huge amount of secondhand solar panels for sale on Ebay, so at the moment there isn't any problem, and in 25 years' time, if I wanted to upgrade my panels to new ones, presumably with better efficiency, (and at least without a 20% drop in efficiency, because they would be new and not 25 years old), I would sell my old panels on Ebay, and I don't see why I wouldn't be able to find a buyer who would use them. What does everybody else think?

Well, my understanding is that the current trend is solar panels are getting cheaper and cheaper relative to the total cost of an installation. Other costs such as labor, mounting/racking, power electronics, physical space used, etc then dominate. Under those conditions, saving up-front cost by buying second(/third?)-hand panels probably isn't going to pay off for the majority of consumer solar installations.

Perhaps that could be shifted with some sort of incentive structure, but I'm not sure how it would need to work.

On the other hand, super cheap used panels are often worth it for the DIY'er with plenty of space for a large ground-mount installation. I just fear that isn't a big enough market segment to soak up the glut of used panels that will come...

Donate: Ship to developing countries.

In 25 years, when my panels are producing 20% less.
The appliances are going to be 40% more efficient.
So, there shouldn't be any need to upgrade them.
Because I will actually be producing 20% more excess.

DIYrich said:

Donate: Ship to developing countries.

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Possibly, but doing this ethically is hard. There is a long history of awful secondary effects from Western charity efforts of various kinds.

I should imagine that there is a major market for solar panels in South Africa at the moment with their failing grid and its rolling blackouts. I also forsee a roaring black market in stolen panels emerging soon, Just a little spreading of the wealth I guess.

Johno1066 said:

I should imagine that there is a major market for solar panels in South Africa at the moment with their failing grid and its rolling blackouts. I also forsee a roaring black market in stolen panels emerging soon, Just a little spreading of the wealth I guess.

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Exactly two points that have come to mind lately.

I retired fairly recently from federal law enforcement. A role I had at one time was critical infrastructure threat analysis. When I drive down some remote roads near me, I see solar arrays sometimes as close as about 20 feet from the shoulder of the road. I cringe to think how it would just take one thief to cripple a family farm or business who’s counting on those panels. The areas are zoned rural-residential and/or agricultural-commercial so I’m sure a quality protective fence (at minimum) could be constructed.

SenileOldGit said:

I just read this daft article from the BBC:

Challenge to stop solar panels becoming a 'waste mountain'

A French factory is pioneering recycling of solar units as experts warn of a waste mountain by 2050.

www.bbc.co.uk

Solar panels don't have a life of only 25 to 30 years. They will still work, except they will have lost some of their efficiency and may 'only' be giving out 80% or maybe even only 70% of their original rated output. There don't appear to be a huge amount of secondhand solar panels for sale on Ebay, so at the moment there isn't any problem, and in 25 years' time, if I wanted to upgrade my panels to new ones, presumably with better efficiency, (and at least without a 20% drop in efficiency, because they would be new and not 25 years old), I would sell my old panels on Ebay, and I don't see why I wouldn't be able to find a buyer who would use them. What does everybody else think?

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Lots of ex solar farm panels about, they are everywhere

SamG340 said:

Lots of ex solar farm panels about, they are everywhere

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Do you have any links? I think I remember a UK company that had used solar panels in bulk for sale, but there aren't many on Ebay (UK), and I would expect there to be quite a few on there if there are loads of second hand ones available. My point is that the fundamental point of the article was incorrect - solar panels don't only 'last 25 to 30 years', they don't suddenly stop working after 25 years.

Johno1066 said:

I also forsee a roaring black market in stolen panels emerging soon, Just a little spreading of the wealth I guess.

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I say electrify the mounting rails.

SenileOldGit said:

Do you have any links? I think I remember a UK company that had used solar panels in bulk for sale, but there aren't many on Ebay (UK), and I would expect there to be quite a few on there if there are loads of second hand ones available. My point is that the fundamental point of the article was incorrect - solar panels don't only 'last 25 to 30 years', they don't suddenly stop working after 25 years.

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Oh yea you're right , I'd buy 20 yr old panels at the drop of a hat if the price was right




There's a couple of good lads on Facebook marketplace too

SenileOldGit said:

Solar panels don't have a life of only 25 to 30 years. They will still work, except they will have lost some of their efficiency and may 'only' be giving out 80% or maybe even only 70% of their original rated output.

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It's not a matter of their physical life span but of their economic one.

Here it is common for rooftop PV systems to be upgraded at ~ 10-15 years old. That's because back then PV systems were much smaller and now people can afford to fit 10 kW when they had an old 3 kW system previously.

It is compounded by regulations here which require any upgrade to an existing system (e.g. adding more panels or upgrade to inverter capacity) to now make the entire system comply with current installation standards. As a result it's usually way cheaper to rip down the old and put up an entirely new system. It's too time consuming to bring an old system up to today's standards.

And access to incentives also requires panels and inverters be listed on the current approval lists. PV panel models more than a few years old tend to drop off the list and so they become effectively worthless to installers.

Second hand panels here are not worth much as a result, the market for them it small. DIY off-grid is about the only market and that is a niche market of a niche market.

Recycling will improve, we have specialist PV recycling centres here but it would help if most manufactured items were required to include end of life processing costs in the purchase price such that recycling and repurposing can be sustained by that cost.

wattmatters said:

Second hand panels here are not worth much as a result, the market for them it small. DIY off-grid is about the only market and that is a niche market of a niche market.

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While I agree with all your points, the DIY market may be bigger than you think. I keep a close eye on eBay and FB Marketplace locally for second hand panels, and all reasonably priced offers sell very quickly. There are even a few solar installers selling the used panels they remove on a continuous basis for a good profit.
I've also seen the media hype on the waste issues, which may be true, however the fucos at the moment is all on recycling rather than reusing. I don't think the reuse market has been well tested or explored yet.

VermontOwl said:

Exactly two points that have come to mind lately.

I retired fairly recently from federal law enforcement. A role I had at one time was critical infrastructure threat analysis. When I drive down some remote roads near me, I see solar arrays sometimes as close as about 20 feet from the shoulder of the road. I cringe to think how it would just take one thief to cripple a family farm or business who’s counting on those panels. The areas are zoned rural-residential and/or agricultural-commercial so I’m sure a quality protective fence (at minimum) could be constructed.

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Or a watch tower with Flir cameras , and a 338…..

octal_ip said:

While I agree with all your points, the DIY market may be bigger than you think.

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Not here it isn't.

99.8% of solar PV is grid-tied and DIY grid-tied is verboten (unless you happened to be an accredited solar PV installer and licensed electrician).

DIY here is pretty much confined to off-grid stuff. Even off-grid the rules are fairly restrictive, most of us which do it are operating in a bit of a grey zone. If it's a 12 V or a 24 V system you are (mostly) fine but once you start working with 48 V systems, well you hit limits of what you are permitted to do pretty quickly. I do zero of anything on the AC output side. My electrician does all of that.

You can argue about the exact timing, but I think it's clear that eventually there will be a lot of expired panels to deal with - hopefully by recycling materials and not landfill.

If they do become a trash problem at some point, people will probably be giving them away for free. Even if you have trash pickup by the town, you usually need to pay for oversized items. I imagine at that point people will ignore the solar part and find uses for them as just "panels"

This is an intriguing subject. I could see a new business model (I'm sure it's already being considered) of solar module recycling facilities.

I would have to imagine black market solar is already well underway on every continent. 3rd world countries with aging and inadequate power grids need this technology and are going to start pursuing it heavily. Consider countries like the DRC in Africa. Huge cities like Kinchasa that are growing at an astronomical rate can simply not keep up with the growing power demands. Citizens are going to have to start taking their power needs into their own hands. Latin America and Asia are in the same boat. It's interesting to think about what the future looks like in these areas.

Oil and gas are still king in these places, but things have to change. I'm sure the regimes that are profiteering in the current systems aren't going to release their grip without some serious pressure from the outside, however.

It's really interesting to consider how solar can change lives around the world. I just hope those in the position to make a difference, actually will.

mountkay said:

If they do become a trash problem at some point, people will probably be giving them away for free. Even if you have trash pickup by the town, you usually need to pay for oversized items. I imagine at that point people will ignore the solar part and find uses for them as just "panels"

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Why wouldn’t the ‘regimes‘ change? The billion salaried management is there for the implementing of so called SDG’s, not to make money for the stockholders. Last hype in the news is deep sea drilling by the Chinese……

Solar PV trash is and will be but a mere fraction of the scale of waste products generated from consuming fossil fuels.