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Having some difficulty with breaker/fuse placement.

smoothJoey said:
Sounds like you know what you are doing so I'm not going to worry.
Be careful though.
Click to expand...
I'll probably set everything up on a table outside first and get out the trusty outlet tester, see where things shake out. Thanks for the help.
 
beckkl said:
I'll probably set everything up on a table outside first and get out the trusty outlet tester, see where things shake out.
Click to expand...

Be careful: Some inverters have a power saving 'hunt' mode where they turn off the AC after a time of no load. While in this state they occasionally send out a pulse to see if a load appeared. If they detect a load they immediately turn on the AC. This is great for saving power, but a 'trusty outlet tester' is no longer so trusty. It can indicate no power present when the inverter is in the power saving mode. Then when you touch the circuit because you think it is safe, the inverter decides you are a load that needs full voltage.....Zap!?
 
FilterGuy said:
Be careful: Some inverters have a power saving 'hunt' mode where they turn off the AC after of time of no load. While in this state they occasionally send out a pulse to see if a load appeared. If they detect a load they immediately turn the AC. This is great for saving power, but a 'trusty outlet tester' is no longer so trusty. It can indicate no power present when the inverter is in the power saving mode. Then when you touch the circuit because you think it is safe, the inverter decides you are a load that needs full voltage.....Zap!?
Click to expand...
Well, I suppose that a lesson for not ensuring the wire cannot be live :)
 
smoothJoey said:
Sounds like you know what you are doing so I'm not going to worry.
Be careful though.
Click to expand...
Well, no dice on the ATS helping with the neutral bonding issue. Because Both the inverter and shore power are technically both providing power to the swtich, the bonding I did in the box on the inverter side trips the GCFI on the house. I'm thinking of bonding the neutral and ground in the RV panel with a NC relay wired to the shore power. I think that might be a simpler solution, and less expensive.
 
beckkl said:
Well, no dice on the ATS helping with the neutral bonding issue. Because Both the inverter and shore power are technically both providing power to the swtich, the bonding I did in the box on the inverter side trips the GCFI on the house. I'm thinking of bonding the neutral and ground in the RV panel with a NC relay wired to the shore power. I think that might be a simpler solution, and less expensive.
Click to expand...

I don't know how your ats works.
Which wires does it switch?
 
smoothJoey said:
I don't know how your ats works.
Which wires does it switch?
Click to expand...
Hot and neutral. But its on a delay of 15 or so seconds. I bonded the neutral of the output of the MPP unit but this trips the shore power GFCI breaker when it is plugged in.
 
Is this what you implemented?
diysolarforum.com

Having some difficulty with breaker/fuse placement.

I purchased the 12V 1K MPP Solar unit for my camper, and am having trouble determining fuse/breaker sizing and placement. I will have 160W of panels and a 100AH AGM battery. My understanding is that I need about a 125A fuse on the positive of the battery, but the manual also mentions that the...
diysolarforum.com diysolarforum.com
 
Here is another option.

tpdt = triple pole double throw

Code: 
                     inverter_charger->|        |->master_breaker
                                        ->tpdt->
shore_power->surge_protector->breaker->|        |->master_breaker
 
Last edited:
I'm trying to avoid switching anything manually. A NC relay that breaks the neutral bond when energized from shore power seems like the simplest solution?
 
beckkl said:
I'm trying to avoid switching anything manually. A NC relay that breaks the neutral bond when energized from shore power seems like the simplest solution?
Click to expand...

I think it will work and I'm a big fan of simple.
 
Relay worked perfectly. The neutral bond in the RV panel is broken when shore power is present. GFCI breaker in the RV trips with the tester when on battery power, and the GFCI breaker in the garage trips when on shore power. Much simpler solution than the ATS and about $70 less. Now I have to put everything together nicely so it doesn't look like this:

1592334594722.png
 
Did you also test with an outlet tester?
Should be fine but if you have one its worth doing.
 
smoothJoey said:
I see you use wago levernuts. I'm a fan of those.
Click to expand...
I've actually never used those, they came with the ATS which was a nice touch. Going back to Amazon though. Funny story, my dad and brother are both electricians. When we were wiring my house I was using wagos for the can lights. My dad commented on how fast I was going, and became a reluctant convert.
 
@beckkl
Great work sorting out the neutral bonding issue using a non UL 458 listed inverter.

This is an important post in regards to using an all in one(AIO) type device for a mobile application that addresses safety fully.
 
Great discussion here. Thank you. Do you have any concern if your relay fails? Whether it fails open or closed it can still be dangerous
 
beckkl said:
Relay worked perfectly. The neutral bond in the RV panel is broken when shore power is present. GFCI breaker in the RV trips with the tester when on battery power, and the GFCI breaker in the garage trips when on shore power. Much simpler solution than the ATS and about $70 less. Now I have to put everything together nicely so it doesn't look like this:
Click to expand...
I picked up a Zettler AZ2280-1C-120A relay to accomplish the same. (Neutral and ground bond is broken when grid power actuates the coil) I set it up right next to the input/output AC on the MPP Solar 2424. My circuit analyzer no longer reads open ground when on battery power only. As you mentioned in your post, my circuit analyzer trips the GFCI in both the RV and house depending on whether I'm on battery or grid. Is this normal? My Googling tells me this is normal as the analyzer is bridging hot and ground. But still this had me thinking I did something wrong until I saw your response.

If my picture is confusing it's because I accidentally snapped the AC output ground chassis bolt and I can't get it out. So I have the AC Input ground, AC output ground, and the output neutral ground bond all on the AC input ground.
 

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I can't comment on how normal it is for both the RV and house breaker to trip. I figured that as long as the breaker tripped on the house, that it would be safe. I'm not sure if there are flaws in that logic.
 
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