How Can a Tier 1 System Make Financial Sense?
- Thread starter markpj23
- Start date
ROI means nothing to me.
Solar is my hobby. I like making and using my own power, I like it even more when the grid goes down, and so does my wife
Same here I can care less about ROI... I wanted the system and the backup batteries. You want ROI buy a house and make it a rental.
And solar at the cabin is a hobby also and nice to have.
.
dougbert
Solar Addict
In my signature I have
"Its the features I need, not the money I spend that matters most"
that is what has driven me for 30 years now
"Its the features I need, not the money I spend that matters most"
that is what has driven me for 30 years now
I Pay $0.11/kWh and have a $45 month interconnect fee for net metering. Also $30 month fee. ROI is about 8 years with tax credit, did all the work my self. 12KW solar. The way I see it when the price of grid kWh goes up, my ROI will be better. If not, I still have power in an outage.
Well put….. and does anybody out there believe that electric rates are Gona stay low as they are?
And if you own a good solid system ,doesn’t that make it more valuable both in utility and in the power you derive from it now and in the future…
Energy prices are sooooo vulnerable to manipulation from up top it is almost a certainty it will go the path of oil- food - housing- medicine- cigarettes , etc..etc..
If a big whig can make more money , it will always go up….
Its what they do…
J.
Hahaha , no I'm not interested in 'return on investment' , I'm off on holiday next week ?
This'll be me
Even more !!
we're all skint enough as it is over here
If times get much worse, financial viability is just about all we're going to be thinking of
Philip53
10.4kw DIY Home Solar Sprinter Van DIY Victron
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- Aug 22, 2022
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- 107
@markpj23, I think you are off on your expected kwh per day calculations. I live in north Louisiana which does not have the sunshine potential you do, and I get considerably better production than you are estimating. I have 10.4 kw of solar, in three arrays, facing SE, SW & South. I can get 50+kwh's per day on a full sunny day in the summer, and up to 40kwh in the winter. And that is using a grid tie Schneider XW6048. By using direct grid connect, with no batteries, better pv panel sun orientation than I have, and a 10kw inverter, you should get a good bit more. Maybe twice what you have figured. And that would make your potential payback look much better.
Last edited:
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
My production varies by season in Northern California. I got 11,700 kWhs from a 9kWh system in the past 12 months. That is an annual factor of 1300.
Philip53
10.4kw DIY Home Solar Sprinter Van DIY Victron
- Joined
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- Messages
- 107
@Ampster, that is really good. I get about the same, from a little larger system. I should get more, but I don't have 2 of the 3 arrays ideally positioned, and there is some shading. But to get more production, I would need a larger inverter. As it is now, the 3 different facing arrays helps keep the production curve somewhat flat, using mostly max output from the 6kw inverter during the middle 1/2 of the day. I often see 6.2 kw output from the old Schneider XW6048. I do have a couple additional fans blowing on the inverter and SCC's to maintain full output & avoid any output derating.
A 5-Year ROI on a 20-25 year asset is pretty darn good. Energy inflation is also pretty real, so you could see even better than that.
Of course, the ROI on energy savings is usually better, but those improvements don't always have the same lifespan.
Of course, the ROI on energy savings is usually better, but those improvements don't always have the same lifespan.
Fans can be your friend …….I have a 10 watt high output fan aimed at the bottom of my inverter that helps the internal fan when its warm outside and I get about 150 or more watts usable power by the cooling effect.. tested it all summer and it works great raising the efficiency …..easy to measure and instant feedback on the inverter app showing result…
Nobodybusiness
Solar Sponge.
What liability? Almost every Grid tie inverter is Anti Island.The Tiers for solar are defined in the Florida Administrative Code 25-6.065 - not applicable to those outside of FL.
Tier 1 = 10kw AC or less. Requires $100K liability insurance
Tier 2 = 10kw to 100kw AC. Requires $1M liability insurance
Tier 3 = 100Kw to 2Mw AC. Requires $2M liability insurance
Are you buying the insurance through them?
Seems suspect if so.
Quite a scam!!
Technically correct - I saw this in an amendment to the rule that was not adopted. They can only 'recommend' this amount of liability insurance for Tier 1 systems. My mistake.
The insurance is to protect you should the system malfunction and somehow create a hazard to linemen. You purchase your insurance through a private carrier, not the utility. I've heard figures of around $15 / month for a $1M policy. Each client is different though..
Agreed - or at least I hope so. My estimated production used the 75% 'rule of thumb' and due to shading, roof shape / position, I used only 4 hours of sunlight per day. Neighbors have some really tall trees that are nice for everything except solar production....
n2aws
Solar Addict
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- 690
I'm also in florida.
I also have a "tier 1" system, Schnieder XW Pro.
In FL, if you go above 10kw, you must have $1m in liability insurance to have a net metering agreement with FPL or duke. When shopping around a few months ago, this is about $15/month.
If you decide not to have a net metering agreement, that insurance requirement goes away. That said, if you aren't planning on batteries (or at least, not at first) then.. NEM makes a lot of sense.
If you are talking a 5 year payback, I would say it still makes sense. a solid and reliable system will give you 25+ years of power. so "20 years" of free power, starting at the 5 year mark.
If your concern is about 5 years payback, and still having to pay an electric bill, consider the $15/month insuarance for the tier2 option. But honestly, being in florida myself.. I'd strongly suggest a battery system. going 20+ days without power is NO FUN.
9 days with no power after IAN, (But I had solar+batteries, so my critical loads continued to work)
23 days with no power after charlie, aside from what time I ran a generator... and fuel was SCARCE the first week or so.
To be fair, Charlie was so long because when the power poles fell over, it ripped the weatherhead out of my house, and I had to wait for an electrician to fix it and replace my main panel that was destroyed. most of my neighbors were something like 15 days.
One last thing to consider. You are saying 5 years payback. But does that include the cost of energy going up? Judging from our economy the last few years, it's only a matter of time if yours hasn't gone up already.
I also have a "tier 1" system, Schnieder XW Pro.
In FL, if you go above 10kw, you must have $1m in liability insurance to have a net metering agreement with FPL or duke. When shopping around a few months ago, this is about $15/month.
If you decide not to have a net metering agreement, that insurance requirement goes away. That said, if you aren't planning on batteries (or at least, not at first) then.. NEM makes a lot of sense.
If you are talking a 5 year payback, I would say it still makes sense. a solid and reliable system will give you 25+ years of power. so "20 years" of free power, starting at the 5 year mark.
If your concern is about 5 years payback, and still having to pay an electric bill, consider the $15/month insuarance for the tier2 option. But honestly, being in florida myself.. I'd strongly suggest a battery system. going 20+ days without power is NO FUN.
9 days with no power after IAN, (But I had solar+batteries, so my critical loads continued to work)
23 days with no power after charlie, aside from what time I ran a generator... and fuel was SCARCE the first week or so.
To be fair, Charlie was so long because when the power poles fell over, it ripped the weatherhead out of my house, and I had to wait for an electrician to fix it and replace my main panel that was destroyed. most of my neighbors were something like 15 days.
One last thing to consider. You are saying 5 years payback. But does that include the cost of energy going up? Judging from our economy the last few years, it's only a matter of time if yours hasn't gone up already.
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