19" rack alternatives, EG4 start up and comms

[offgridfarmgineer]

Hey all, first post there. I have been off-grid for over a year with our Mitchcraft tiny house and starting a farm (on the side while working full time jobs). We are just north of Santa Fe, NM and very common to be 10F or lower in winter and up to 100F in summer. We have 2.9 kW REC Alpha panel system, all the Schneider XANBUS connected stuff and 330 Ah of CR330 FLAs. Batteries and BOS are in one of our shipping containers in an insulated box. Lost a good amount of capacity (probably due to some over discharge and high temps in summer) and tired of worrying about whether we can run a toaster in the mornings or needing to turn on our propane generator. Just ordered 4 EG4-LLs just to really boost our capacity (we often aren't using all our panel output, just need more storage) and look forward to not needing them to get to 100% charge and be able to bank capacity for those times when we want a lot of power at night.

I didn't want to buy the Signature Solar racks so looking at other options. The EG4s are just under 3.5 U but I see they are often shown mounted w gaps. Is it possible to mount them directly above each other? Reason I'm asking is 4x3.5 is 14U and 15U racks are common, but do I actually need 16U or higher?

I'm looking at buying the rack below off amazon, 15U and 24" deep. It comes with 2 sets of rails and I was going to buy slotted metal angle for the other two pairs since people charge insane amounts for simple thin rails. I was going to make my own busbars in plastic finger tray ("panduit") and see that the neatest solution is to mount the EG4s on the inside of the vertical rails (this rack has two sets of square mounting holes per post, plus perpendicular holes for surface mounting the rails) so there is room in front of them for the busbars. This is unlike normal mounting on the outside vertical rail holes. I plan to surround the rack with 2" foam board to keep it warm in winter and cooler in summer (will add intake and exhaust to air external to the shipping container for the summer.

Comments?

I think I understand that the EG4-LLs do NOT have a start-up issue with my SW 4048, unlike the EG4 Lifepower, is that correct? Any tips?

Since they unfortunately won't communicate with my Schneider connected devices, for communication with a laptop occasionally I just connect all the battery comms and then connect to one from RS485 to my usb port to check in on things?

@Will Prowse youtube is great and so is this forum, I never used any of this for my initial install I did myself and wish I understood LiFEPO4 better a years ago when I thought my only choice was a Discover battery. I purchased everything from unbound solar and they were great, but I underestimated the FLA issues.

 

[houseofancients]

why no buy a used 19" server rack off ebay ?

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Hey all, first post there. I have been off-grid for over a year with our Mitchcraft tiny house and starting a farm (on the side while working full time jobs). We are just north of Santa Fe, NM and very common to be 10F or lower in winter and up to 100F in summer. We have 2.9 kW REC Alpha panel system, all the Schneider XANBUS connected stuff and 330 Ah of CR330 FLAs. Batteries and BOS are in one of our shipping containers in an insulated box. Lost a good amount of capacity (probably due to some over discharge and high temps in summer) and tired of worrying about whether we can run a toaster in the mornings or needing to turn on our propane generator. Just ordered 4 EG4-LLs just to really boost our capacity (we often aren't using all our panel output, just need more storage) and look forward to not needing them to get to 100% charge and be able to bank capacity for those times when we want a lot of power at night.

I didn't want to buy the Signature Solar racks so looking at other options. The EG4s are just under 3.5 U but I see they are often shown mounted w gaps. Is it possible to mount them directly above each other? Reason I'm asking is 4x3.5 is 14U and 15U racks are common, but do I actually need 16U or higher?

I'm looking at buying the rack below off amazon, 15U and 24" deep. It comes with 2 sets of rails and I was going to buy slotted metal angle for the other two pairs since people charge insane amounts for simple thin rails. I was going to make my own busbars in plastic finger tray ("panduit") and see that the neatest solution is to mount the EG4s on the inside of the vertical rails (this rack has two sets of square mounting holes per posts, plus perpendicular holes for surface mounting the rails) so there is room in front of them for the busbars. This is unlike normal mounting on the outside vertical rail holes. I plan to surround the rack with 2" foam board to keep it warm in winter and cooler in summer (will add intake and exhaust to air external to the shipping container for the summer.

Comments?

I think I understand that the EG4-LLs do NOT have a start-up issue with my SW 4048, unlike the EG4 Lifepower, is that correct? Any tips?

Since they unfortunately won't communicate with my Schneider connected devices, for communication with a laptop occasionally I just connect all the battery comms and then connect to one from RS485 to my usb port to check in on things?

@Will Prowse youtube is great and so is this forum, I never used any of this for my initial install I did myself and wish I understood LiFEPO4 better a years ago when I thought my only choice was a Discover battery. I purchased everything from unbound solar and they were great, but I underestimated the FLA issues.


View attachment 81092
View attachment 81093

The batteries are designed to work with nearly any server rack (most are pretty identical in set up etc.) That being said, there are no clearance limitations on the batteries other than for necessary wiring etc. Let me know if you have any other questions. Also - as of this post we are unaware of any issues with the LL's and comms with inverters like with the lifepower and the precharge resistor.

 

[offgridfarmgineer]

The batteries are designed to work with nearly any server rack (most are pretty identical in set up etc.) That being said, there are no clearance limitations on the batteries other than for necessary wiring etc. Let me know if you have any other questions. Also - as of this post we are unaware of any issues with the LL's and comms with inverters like with the lifepower and the precharge resistor.

Thanks @signaturesolarrichard , I understand that any 4 post 19" rack w rails/shelves can support them but a normal rack w mounting close to the front surface would mean the bus bars would need to be mounted on the front of the posts/corners. Your solution w them just in front of the recessed batteries yet still inside the front plane is much better. I think what I put together will work, but just checking if anyone agrees.

Also, will 4 EG4-LLs fit in a 15U rack? It seems like with the uncommon large slots for mounting it should work independent of whether the hole pitch is a little off for the 3.5U size.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

I built me a custom rack "i have a welder". It holds 4, but I just have 3 in it right now. They fit standard 19" racks, but need rail support from front to back, cannot be held by front ears, too much weight.

The EG4LL starts my Schneider XW Pro 6848, so I expect you won't have any issues with these on your SW.

I never could see all the batteries while networked together, but I could view them one by one by moving the cable to each battery. It could have been something I was doing wrong or it could be it just doesn't work that way to a laptop. And No they don't talk to the Schneider inverters, such a shame.

Finally these batteries don't like extreme cold "below freezing" or heat anymore than your lead acid. Actually less, they won't work at all. You have to keep them from freezing! And the extreme heat in a container could be a problem too.

 

[offgridfarmgineer]

why no buy a used 19" server rack off ebay ?

I did not see anything that looked like it met all my needs.

 

[offgridfarmgineer]

I built me a custom rack "i have a welder". It holds 4, but I just have 3 in it right now. They fit standard 19" racks, but need rail support from front to back, cannot be held by front ears, too much weight.

The EG4LL starts my Schneider XW Pro 6848, so I expect you won't have any issues with these on your SW.

I never could see all the batteries while networked together, but I could view them one by one by moving the cable to each battery. It could have been something I was doing wrong or it could be it just doesn't work that way to a laptop. And No they don't talk to the Schneider inverters, such a shame.

Finally these batteries don't like extreme cold "below freezing" or heat anymore than your lead acid. Actually less, they won't work at all. You have to keep them from freezing! And the extreme heat in a container could be a problem too.

View attachment 81149

Thanks for the reply. I also am a welder, but a bit too busy with our farm development to make something. Yeah I'm aware of definitely staying away from cold temps (my FLAs haven't gone under 50F due to insulation for their box as well as ceiling insulation and thermal mass) and will install heating pads if it looks close. I plan to roof over the two parallel shipping containers which will make a massive difference to keep cooler in summer.
Here is an old shot of my set-up.

 

[On My Workbench]

I built me a custom rack "i have a welder". It holds 4, but I just have 3 in it right now. They fit standard 19" racks, but need rail support from front to back, cannot be held by front ears, too much weight.

The EG4LL starts my Schneider XW Pro 6848, so I expect you won't have any issues with these on your SW.

I never could see all the batteries while networked together, but I could view them one by one by moving the cable to each battery. It could have been something I was doing wrong or it could be it just doesn't work that way to a laptop. And No they don't talk to the Schneider inverters, such a shame.

Finally these batteries don't like extreme cold "below freezing" or heat anymore than your lead acid. Actually less, they won't work at all. You have to keep them from freezing! And the extreme heat in a container could be a problem too.

View attachment 81149

Mr. Sandman. I have solved the Commutations issue with the Signature Solar EG4 LL 48 volt batteries with the LCD display. I have 4 batteries all commutating with my laptop and I am only using one USB to RS 485 adapter. You can see the video at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq4YNPOzUyA
The video is only 7:41 long but if you don't want to watch the entire video just jump to 3:05 and it will show you what I did to resolve it.
I included a drawing of how I have it wired.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Thanks for the video @On My Workbench...

So essentially I could take (3) RJ45 cables and hook to the RS-485 port of each of my (3) EG4 LL batteries. Then wire the brown/white and brown wires of all of the cables into the USB Dongle? Set all the ID's different (not 0 or 1) and then I should see them all in the software?

This lines up with what I was told by Signature Solar.
I was told by signature solar that the batteries do NOT talk to each other thru the battery com ports, only a master battery set to ID 1 will poll the other batteries thru those ports and send that data thru it's RS-485 port to an inverter. So I guess that is why you have to make a connection to each batteries RS-485 port, the daisy chaining on the battery com ports is only for when hooking to inverters and using a master "ID1" battery to poll them.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Oh and I like you buss bars and rack. I thought about making buss bars for mine, but couldn't find any copper bar stock at a reasonable price and I already had the 4 awg cable so I just cut equal lengths of that and combined them on a 4 position style combiner bar.

 

[Koldsimer]

Thanks for the reply. I also am a welder, but a bit too busy with our farm development to make something. Yeah I'm aware of definitely staying away from cold temps (my FLAs haven't gone under 50F due to insulation for their box as well as ceiling insulation and thermal mass) and will install heating pads if it looks close. I plan to roof over the two parallel shipping containers which will make a massive difference to keep cooler in summer.
Here is an old shot of my set-up.
View attachment 81182

I noticed you're in a container. Do you have issues with excessive condensation inside especially in the winter? I have a container as well and can't believe how bad it sweats inside. No way i'd even consider putting any kind of electronics in there. Does your roof insulation largely prevent this issue?

 

[On My Workbench]

Thanks for the video @On My Workbench...

So essentially I could take (3) RJ45 cables and hook to the RS-485 port of each of my (3) EG4 LL batteries. Then wire the brown/white and brown wires of all of the cables into the USB Dongle? Set all the ID's different (not 0 or 1) and then I should see them all in the software?

This lines up with what I was told by Signature Solar.
I was told by signature solar that the batteries do NOT talk to each other thru the battery com ports, only a master battery set to ID 1 will poll the other batteries thru those ports and send that data thru it's RS-485 port to an inverter. So I guess that is why you have to make a connection to each batteries RS-485 port, the daisy chaining on the battery com ports is only for when hooking to inverters and using a master "ID1" battery to poll them.

"So essentially I could take (3) RJ45 cables and hook to the RS-485 port of each of my (3) EG4 LL batteries. Then wire the brown/white and brown wires of all of the cables into the USB Dongle? Set all the ID's different (not 0 or 1) and then I should see them all in the software?"

You got it, That is what I did and I have been trying to tell Signature Solar about it for weeks and the would not call me back or reply to my emails. The way it work is that there is no Master Battery each battery has it's own unique ID number set with the dip switches all you need to do is make a parallel cable that will talk to all of the batteries at the same time, and when the BMS tools is set to PACK ID 2 it sends a request for data to all of the batteries at the same time but only the battery that is set to PACK ID 2 will respond when the BMS Tools is set to PACK ID 3 it sends a request for data to all of the batteries but only battery PACK ID 3 will respond, It's like having 4 people in a room Bill, George john, and Dave, if you call out to Dave, Bill, George and john will not answer. "It's so simple a cave man could do it."
I don't believe the Battery & Comm ports are connected to the RS485 port in the battery, I think someone screwed up on that, as I said in my video it could be an internal switch or jumper that is not configured correctly it it could be a screw up.

 

[Dank Farrik]

"So essentially I could take (3) RJ45 cables and hook to the RS-485 port of each of my (3) EG4 LL batteries. Then wire the brown/white and brown wires of all of the cables into the USB Dongle? Set all the ID's different (not 0 or 1) and then I should see them all in the software?"

You got it, That is what I did and I have been trying to tell Signature Solar about it for weeks and the would not call me back or reply to my emails. The way it work is that there is no Master Battery each battery has it's own unique ID number set with the dip switches all you need to do is make a parallel cable that will talk to all of the batteries at the same time, and when the BMS tools is set to PACK ID 2 it sends a request for data to all of the batteries at the same time but only the battery that is set to PACK ID 2 will respond when the BMS Tools is set to PACK ID 3 it sends a request for data to all of the batteries but only battery PACK ID 3 will respond, It's like having 4 people in a room Bill, George john, and Dave, if you call out to Dave, Bill, George and john will not answer. "It's so simple a cave man could do it."
I don't believe the Battery & Comm ports are connected to the RS485 port in the battery, I think someone screwed up on that, as I said in my video it could be an internal switch or jumper that is not configured correctly it it could be a screw up.

Solar Assistant also has a good guide with diagrams:

EG4 battery setup in SolarAssistant

How to connect an EG4 battery to SolarAssistant.

solar-assistant.io

 

[offgridfarmgineer]

I noticed you're in a container. Do you have issues with excessive condensation inside especially in the winter? I have a container as well and can't believe how bad it sweats inside. No way i'd even consider putting any kind of electronics in there. Does your roof insulation largely prevent this issue?

I have no condensation, since there is no source of moisture. Just storing bikes and random household things and then my solar BOS.

 

[Kornbread]

I built me a custom rack "i have a welder". It holds 4, but I just have 3 in it right now. They fit standard 19" racks, but need rail support from front to back, cannot be held by front ears, too much weight.

The EG4LL starts my Schneider XW Pro 6848, so I expect you won't have any issues with these on your SW.

I never could see all the batteries while networked together, but I could view them one by one by moving the cable to each battery. It could have been something I was doing wrong or it could be it just doesn't work that way to a laptop. And No they don't talk to the Schneider inverters, such a shame.

Finally these batteries don't like extreme cold "below freezing" or heat anymore than your lead acid. Actually less, they won't work at all. You have to keep them from freezing! And the extreme heat in a container could be a problem too.

View attachment 81149

Sweet rack. Do you have some kind of diagram or build pictures?

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Sweet rack. Do you have some kind of diagram or build pictures?

Sorry I got busy building and forgot to stop for pictures. It's basically a front and back rectangle made of 2" square tubing with 2" angle iron welded to make shelves front to back "connecting them". 2" square tubing might be a bit overkill, that's what I had enough of. I'd probably use 1.5" think wall square if buying new material. I made my shelves taller than the EG4 batteries so that I could fit other brands if I buy more and chose them over the EG4's. Some of the new batteries are taller that have came out.

 

[Kornbread]

Sorry I got busy building and forgot to stop for pictures. It's basically a front and back rectangle made of 2" square tubing with 2" angle iron welded to make shelves front to back "connecting them". 2" square tubing might be a bit overkill, that's what I had enough of. I'd probably use 1.5" think wall square if buying new material. I made my shelves taller than the EG4 batteries so that I could fit other brands if I buy more and chose them over the EG4's. Some of the new batteries are taller that have came out.

What dimensions are you thinking?