280ah 48v LifeP04: Purchase package with warranty or DIY

[hammick]

Hi guys. Just joined here. We have an off grid vacation place with a Schneider Conext XW5548 system. Been using Trojan L16 325ah for about six years. Time for new batteries and I'm sick of lead acid.

I'm temped to buy these for the simplicity, warranty and security of ordering from a vendor in the USA but I feel I could save a ton of money ordering from Deligreen.

48V 14.3kwh LiFePO4 battery system with BMS (280ah)

www.treelinepowersystems.com

I don't see myself using more than 30 - 40% of the 280ah capacity even in the winter. Much less in the summer. Then again I am used to amp hours being at the 20 hour rate so I'm not sure what 280ah means with LifeP04.

If I order from Deligreen what BMS do you guys suggest? I would like a good one that balances the cells and cuts power if the voltage drops past a set point. Is it really necessary to compress the cells? The vendor I listed above doesn't think so. He provides adhesive tape to assemble the pack.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Ampster]

Welcome. I am glad you found this place. I saw your post on the other forum and was composing a response but in the meantime one of the Moderators was in the process of banning me so i could not respond.
I did get a chance to reread that thread from its beginning in 2019 and you will notice I started out as a sceptic. To complete the story, I joined this forum in early May and within weeks of reading several threads my skepticism had vanished and I purchased 32 cells for $3400 or less than $125 per kWhr. I was unable to use a credit card but used Paypal for buyer protection.

I will respond to your other questions in subsequent posts but just wanted to welcome you and get some closure on my failed attempt to communicate to you in that other forum.

 

[hammick]

Welcome. I am glad you found this place. I saw your post on the other forum and was composing a response but in the meantime one of the Moderators was in the process of banning me so i could not respond.
I did get a chance to reread that thread from its beginning in 2019 and you will notice I started out as a sceptic. To complete the story, I joined this forum in early May and within weeks of reading several threads my skepticism had vanished and I purchased 32 cells for $3400 or less than $125 per kWhr. I was unable to use a credit card but used Paypal for buyer protection.

I will respond to your other questions in subsequent posts but just wanted to welcome you and get some closure on my failed attempt to communicate to you in that other forum.

Thanks Ampster! I'm pretty much done with that other forum as well. My 325ah Trojans are doing fine. I'm just really anal about not wanting to take them below 80% SOC and with all the stuff we have added to our place I'm having to run the genset some every night in the winter. But I can keep using them while I order, plan and build my battery.

My Schneider equipment can be fine tuned to charge LifeP04. So my biggest issue is finding a quality BMS that will auto balance the cells so I don't have to spend a lot of time worrying and maintaining them. I have learned a ton about lead acid and my five year old Trojans are in great shape. I plan to be just as anal about my LifeP04s.

Thanks again.

 

[Ampster]

.. Been using Trojan L16 325ah for about six years. Time for new batteries and I'm sick of lead acid.

I made the transition to Lithium 10 years ago with an ebike project that I was trying to power with some alarm panel AGMs. It has been a rewarding journey. I have no regrets. Trojans are well respected batteries.

I'm temped to buy these for the simplicity, warranty and security of ordering from a vendor in the USA but I feel I could save a ton of money ordering from Deligreen.
.....
I don't see myself using more than 30 - 40% of the 280ah capacity even in the winter. Much less in the summer. Then again I am used to amp hours being at the 20 hour rate so I'm not sure what 280ah means with LifeP04.

DIY can be very rewarding. Two years ago I had a reservation on a Tesla Powerwall to compliment the solar on a recently purchased home in the Sonoma Valley of California. I missed the rewarding experience of the EV conversion and cancelled that for a DIY project with an Outback Skybox. I have no regrets. It all depends on you comfort with DIY. Read some of the threads here and you will see there is plenty of support from this community.
One of the reasons Lithium batteries are used in every EV since the EV1 is their energy density, lower long term cost and greater discharge rate. The particular batteries can discharge up to 1C instead of the fractional C rate of Lead Acid (Pb). However that is never even needed in a storage environment. I doubt you will need 280 Amps discharge except maybe for a moment and there will be less sag and you can forget Peukert even had a law.

If I order from Deligreen what BMS do you guys suggest? I would like a good one that balances the cells and cuts power if the voltage drops past a set point.

That is a topic worthy of a separate discussion but I will hit the highlights and we can dive deeper as appropriate. By way of background, my Lithium journey included converting a VW to electric and the BMS I chose for that cost almost $1,000. It had a lot of features appropriate for an EV and at that time there were not a lot of BMSs that could handle the 400 plus Amps that an EV would require. Today there are several FET based BMSs that say they can go up to 200 Amps. I looked at that Colorado vendor's BMS and there was very little information but it most likely it it one of the commodity BMSs available on Alibaba and extensively reviewed here. I would focus on what features you want and the bells and whistles you want. That decision does not have to be made right away unless you decide to go with the Colorado vendor. The cells from China will take 6 to 7 weeks by ship and BMS can be express shipped via air. That decision is not on the critical path until after your cells are ordered.

Is it really necessary to compress the cells? The vendor I listed above doesn't think so. He provides adhesive tape to assemble the pack.

The cells do expand to various degrees depending on how they are used. To pass building inspection in California I assumed I needed some form of seismic restraint so I incorporated that into the small compression system. It is not a critical path item and will evolve as you realize the space savings a Lithium pack will give you. Mine are in a metal cabinet on a garage wall. You can barely make out the aluminum plate at the top. The gaps between columns 1&2 and 3&4 are where the thread rod provides compression.

 

[Jejochen]

If I order from Deligreen what BMS do you guys suggest?

Thanks for any advice!

Give my regards to April

 

[Ampster]

I plan to be just as anal about my LifeP04s.

Haha. I am a retired CFO and have been told I am analytic. My choice of BMS was influenced by my love of data and that was a feature that was worth paying for. Lots of great choices in that space.

 

[Ampster]

@hammick
I noticed you posted this question on the other forum, " BTW what are you guys doing with all these cells. I can't imagine needing 1,120ah of LifeP04 power. "

There are even more examples on this forum. I think @Jejochen has 96 cells. In my case my 32 cells are powering the essential loads panel which has been off grid (syncronized but zero export) for 60 days. I still sell some excess to the grid at peak rates so I can use an EV rate to charge my EVs.

 

[Sojourner1]

The better question is "what can't you power with that much".

 

[hammick]

@hammick
I noticed you posted this question on the other forum, " BTW what are you guys doing with all these cells. I can't imagine needing 1,120ah of LifeP04 power. "

There are even more examples on this forum. I think @Jejochen has 96 cells. In my case my 32 cells are powering the essential loads panel which has been off grid (syncronized but zero export) for 60 days. I still sell some excess to the grid at peak rates so I can use an EV rate to charge my EVs.

Well our off grid vacation place is heated with a propane stove and a wood stove. At 5,100' so we don't need AC. But the wife keeps adding kitchen gadgets that take a ton on juice (sous vide, air fryer, insta-pot, Vitamix, etc).

If put in a 280ah 48v 16cell bank what are the thoughts on paralleling in another a few years down the road? Is it a bad idea like with lead acid? Or does each bank get it own BMS and the cells all get appropriately balanced?

 

[Ampster]

If put in a 280ah 48v 16cell bank what are the thoughts on paralleling in another a few years down the road? Is it a bad idea like with lead acid? Or does each bank get it own BMS and the cells all get appropriately balanced?

I did that with my VW conversion a couple of years after buying the first pack. That was a 96 volt pack of 36 Winston 100 Ahr batteries, I buddy paired them and there was never an issue. There was no inexpensive BMS capable of handling 36 cells in series so buddy pairing that pack was the most cost effective. Today with good $100 to $200 FET based BMSs many people are running two parallel packs. Lithium is much more forgiving than Lead Acid (Pb) because it doesn't have to be fully charged every cycle and there are not as many other issues like the need for long absorption times. The multiple cells are kept at closer voltages by the BMS. Your pack will fill up quicker and more of you solar later in the day will be available to run your wife's extra gadgets. The increase in WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) is some thing that is not often mentioned . Two packs give you some comfort of redundancy and of course each pack will be exactly the same voltage because they are in parallel.

Bottom line you have lots of flexibility. You can probably sell the Trojans because there are still lots of Pb fans looking for a good deal and they probably have some life left in them.

 

[hammick]

I did that with my VW conversion a couple of years after buying the first pack. That was a 96 volt pack of 36 Winston 100 Ahr batteries, I buddy paired them and there was never an issue. There was no inexpensive BMS capable of handling 36 cells in series so buddy pairing that pack was the most cost effective. Today with good $100 to $200 FET based BMSs many people are running two parallel packs. Lithium is much more forgiving than Lead Acid (Pb) because it doesn't have to be fully charged every cycle and there are not as many other issues like the need for long absorption times. The multiple cells are kept at closer voltages by the BMS. Your pack will fill up quicker and more of you solar later in the day will be available to run your wife's extra gadgets. The increase in WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) is some thing that is not often mentioned . Two packs give you some comfort of redundancy and of course each pack will be exactly the same voltage because they are in parallel.

Bottom line you have lots of flexibility. You can probably sell the Trojans because there are still lots of Pb fans looking for a good deal and they probably have some life left in them.

Thanks Ampster. I'm sold on the 280ah packs. I was reading up on the Orion Jr. BMS 2 but man the install looks complicated. My Conext 60 amp MPPT CC has a lithium setting and I can customize everything. Same lithium setting on my Inverter/charger. I can also set a max discharge rate. I'm wondering if Orion's backup safety leads would really be necessary. Any of you LifeP04 gurus live near Red Lodge, Montana?

I installed and configured my entire solar system so I can probably figure out a BMS with help from you guys.

I'm guessing my Trojans have 5 to 7 years of life left if used similar to their first five years. I also have a set of 435ah Trojans I bought from one of my neighbors about a week ago. They are 3 years old and have been abused. I have 5 of them reading proper specific gravities so far. 2 of them will probably get there. One has a dead cell that I am hoping to recover with NOCO Genius charger I ordered. If not, I'll try the Epsom salt trick as a last resort. If I can't recover the bad battery I'll sell the best 4 as a 24v bank, two as a 12v bank, one as a single and scrap the dead one.

What do you think 8 L16RE-As 325 ah are worth with interconnects? All cells read proper and looking down the cells with a flashlight they are clean as new. 5 years old and rarely taken below 80% SOC.

 

[solardad]

@hammick welcome! Glad you made it over to the other side.... I was half thinking my post there was going to get it pulled because I mentioned this site to nudge you here.