diy solar

diy solar

8 cells - same BMS or can they be different?

MartinRaz

New Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2021
Messages
40
I have 8 cells 3,2v.

Current setup, with BMS is connecting 4 cells to get a "normal" 12v with 200Amps.
But I have 4 more cells, so can get 400 amps in my campervan.
I would like to be able to draw 2000W.

But how to create it best?

a) Make two batteries of 200A, each with their own BMS - putting them in parallel to get 12v with 400A.
b) Make one battery with one BMS for alle cells - still 12V and 400A

I already have two BMS, so doing a) would be the most easy thing.
But the BMS' are totally different - I Have one large BMS, that can take 200A and one smaller up to I think 50A or 100A.
 
Different BMS amps rating could be an issue.
I would use just the 200 amp on all 8 cells.
How to do that?
Like Will does in this video?

How about balancing then?
I can tell, that my current BMS is constantly balancing the cells. If every other cells, or half of the cells, does not have a specific wire, how would they be balanced/checked?
 
Did you see how they were connected in the video? A picture is worth a thousand words.
;)
Yes, i did.. but I might not have understood :)

Will connects the 8 cells in pairs, so he ends up with 4 new cells, each cell consisting of two cells.

In "normal" setup, with only 4 cells, if cell B is out of balance, my BMS will take care of that.
Now, if for example cell B2 gets out of balance - you are saying, that BMS will still take care of that?

I would assume, that my current cells actually consist of several cells behind the blue tape - so that is actually already happening with my current 4 cell setup?

Below picture is screenshot from Wills YouTube video (A1,A2 and so on is individual cells. a1, b1 is "created new cells" and is not info done by Will, but is inserted by me for my understanding)

1654592419635.png
 

Attachments

  • 1654587191163.png
    1654587191163.png
    1.6 MB · Views: 10
Last edited:
Yes, i did.. but I might not have understood :)

Will connects the 8 cells in pairs, so he ends up with 4 new cells, each cell consisting of two cells.
yes. It's called 2p.
In "normal" setup, with only 4 cells, if cell B is out of balance, my BMS will take care of that.
Now, if for example cell B2 gets out of balance - you are saying, that BMS will still take care of that?
yes. b1+b2 in parallel = cell bb1.
I would assume, that my current cells actually consist of several cells behind the blue tape - so that is actually already happening with my current 4 cell setup?
no, but that is the case with traditional lead acid batteries.

No idea what I'm looking at here. Which terminals are positive, which negative? They will need to be paralleled and serialized right to properly share the load across the cells.
 
yes. It's called 2p.

yes. b1+b2 in parallel = cell bb1.

no, but that is the case with traditional lead acid batteries.


No idea what I'm looking at here. Which terminals are positive, which negative? They will need to be paralleled and serialized right to properly share the load across the cells.

GREAT - thanks for super info.

The pic, is screenshot from Wills Youtube video (i edited my post, so it now shows).

What you are saying about "b1+b2 = bb1" - i get that, but still, can one of the cells (b1) not be out of balance with the other (b2)? If so, the BMS will not detect?

Other question:
Difference between 4s2p and 2p4s - can you explain? I assume, what I am doing (Will in the video is doing) is 4s2p?
 
Once you parallel cells they become one. The voltage is the same for both.
 
Once you parallel cells they become one. The voltage is the same for both.

So only when they are in series can they have different voltage?

... makes sense - similar to when I initially setup the pack -all are in parallel and same voltage.

So I can simply start by having them all in parallel - to get same voltage.
And then create a 4s2p battery pack - with my 200A BMS.

... so now I just need to find/create busbars.
 
When you do a 2p4s config (ie 4-pair of cells with each pair in parallel and then the pairs connected in series which allows you can use a single BMS to achieve a 400A, 12V pack. However, the BMS will NOT be able to balance below the pair level as from it's perspective each pair is a SINGLE cell. In a 2P4S config if there is a weak or failing cell in a pair, the pair appears as a bad cell to the BMS. That is why it is REALLY important that you fully characterize EVERY cell so as to match them as closely as possible in the beginning. You COULD initially build it as a 8S pack (ie 24V) and allow the BMS to balance them at the TOP END using an external bench power supply. This way you can SEE if any cells exhibit issues. Investing in a battery internal resistance meter, such as the YR1035+ ($50) on AliExpress, allows your to match them based on internal resistance and to find any wayward cells before assembling a pack. Assume NOTHING, ONLY hard data matters. If you are lucky enough to have 8 reasonable matched cells, then disassemble and reassemble as a 2P4S.
Another way is to build 2 separate 4S packs, each with its own BMS (BOTH BMSes need to have the same ratings) and then parallel them. Since you want 2000W you need ensure that EITHER pack can delivery the full 2000W/166+ amps should either pack's BMS disconnect for an over/under condition. As is ALWAYS good practice, each 4S pack needs a fast blow fuse between its positive and ANY charger/loads. DO NOT depend on the BMS to act as your fuse! In a 12V pack, you can use either a T-class OR marine MRBF fuses. Beyond 12V packs require T-Class fuses. I chose MRBF as they are more compact and @ 12V have the same interrupting current rating as a T-Class and they are less expensive (not to be confused with cheap).
There is a 3rd way where you build it permanently as an 8S, single BMS, 24V pack and then use a DC-DC power converter to drop the voltage to 12V for your camper 12V systems while running your 120VAC inverter directly from 24V. This reduces the wiring size requirement as the amps out of the battery itself are cut in half due to the voltage doubling. However, this means that you also need a DC-DC LiFePO4 specific charger to take the 12V from your van and step it up to the 24V needed to charge the pack as well as a 24V output shore power charger. So more electronics/cost but there are advantages none the less. I heavily considered this approach but the cost/benefit was marginal at best, so I went with the dual 12V packs in parallel. FYI, As I have a generator, my setup does NOT include an inverter so the loads in my 34ft Airstream are under 60As total.
I know it seems very overwhelming. As a retired EE, I know all too well the complexities. What you have to remember is you are creating a device regardless of how you configure it with more than enough contained energy to do real damage in a failure, so safety has to be JOB 1 regardless of cost! Going cheap is NOT a good approach to these high capacity LiFePO4 systems.
FYI, I found some excellent flexible (braided wire/ solid ends) busbars on eBay. Not exactly cheap, but really well made and more than capable of 200A.
david
 
Last edited:
There are not a lot of 400A BMS products, and that capability will cost much more than 2x 200A BMS units (especially with one already present and paid for). Your single "200A" BMS is good for a maximum of 2500 VA (DC Watts), and maybe meets your requirement all by itself.

I don't like your cell and bus bar arrangement in post #6, because the "2" cells are reached via more bus bars and higher resistance. If you want to stay with "normal" length hole bus bars, rather than creating three "double-length" bus bars (4 holes each) for the "middle" bus bar connections, you could create balanced resistance by building the packs separately, and then splitting each of the 4 BMS balancing leads to connect 2 cells (one from pack "A" and one from pack "B") on each lead.
 
The size of the BMS should be based on anticipated loads. I haven't seen anything that indicates @MartinRaz is needing 400 Amps. If he were, it would make more sense to use a 24 volt inverter and only consume 200 Amps.
 
GREAT - thanks for super info.

The pic, is screenshot from Wills Youtube video (i edited my post, so it now shows).

What you are saying about "b1+b2 = bb1" - i get that, but still, can one of the cells (b1) not be out of balance with the other (b2)? If so, the BMS will not detect?
Its possible for them to get out of balance at mid or low states of charge, but upon a full charge they will balance out at the top. The BMS will see them as 1 cell. The voltage on the parallel busbar will be sourced from both cells.
Other question:
Difference between 4s2p and 2p4s - can you explain? I assume, what I am doing (Will in the video is doing) is 4s2p?
4s2p = 4 in serial (4s) x 2(p) of those connected in parallel.
2p4s = 2 in parallel (2p) x 4(s) of those connected in serial.

The former requires 2 separate BMS, but offers redundancy and better protection in the sense that every cell is individually monitored.

The latter allows for a single BMS, but each parallel set of cells is monitored as a single battery. If one of the cells fail, it could potentially destroy the one it is paralleled to and adds some complexity in the case of troubleshooting.
 
The size of the BMS should be based on anticipated loads. I haven't seen anything that indicates @MartinRaz is needing 400 Amps. If he were, it would make more sense to use a 24 volt inverter and only consume 200 Amps.

I think you are right.
I can go with "only" the 200A and the 12v.

Then I might just let my friend use/buy the other 4 cells.

Seems way simpler, than a 2p4s battery.

And correct - it is not my system, but Wills example.
And later in the video he turns them all, and also tells to compress more.
 
I think you are right.
I can go with "only" the 200A and the 12v.

Then I might just let my friend use/buy the other 4 cells.

Seems way simpler, than a 2p4s battery.

And correct - it is not my system, but Wills example.
And later in the video he turns them all, and also tells to compress more.
Will's older videos may have been superseded by more current videos where he learned better ways of doing things. Keep this in mind and check the date/description of his videos. You may need to look for his newer videos on the topic.
 
I think you are right.
I can go with "only" the 200A and the 12v.

Then I might just let my friend use/buy the other 4 cells.

Seems way simpler, than a 2p4s battery.
What are your loads? Do you ever get to 150 Amps?
My point was you can have 400Ahr of batteries connected to a 200 Amp BMS with no problems I have 42KWh (840Ahr) of batteries going to an inverter with a 125 Amp circuit breaker. But that capacity gives me days of power and that should be the decision criteria for you. Yes only four cells is simpler but 8 cells will last twice as long and a 2P4S pack is not that complicated. Whatever you decide, Good Luck.
 
What are your loads? Do you ever get to 150 Amps?
Currently I am far from it.
Highest load is my fridge wich is below 25Amps

But I would like to use an induction stove, and also a water kettle - former might run up to 175 amps, later up to 66amps.

I would like to be able to stay the same place for at least 3-4 days without charging.
With "only" 200Ahr - I will need some form of charge - either from sun or from driving (or from land).

Yes only four cells is simpler but 8 cells will last twice as long and a 2P4S pack is not that complicated.

I already have the cells and the 200A BMS - so you might be right :)
 
Back
Top