ABYC standards for marine lithium?

[jdege]

Apparently ABYC has published new standards for lithium batteries in a marine environment, effective sometime next year.

Has anyone looked them over? Do any of the current manufacturers measure up?

 

[BobR]

In the recent Dec./Jan. issue of Professional Boatbuilder; John Adey, President of ABYC talks about lithium batteries. He states that new standards were added this year, 'ABYC Standard E-13, Lithium Ion Batteries'.

I do not have access to the standards.

 

[BobR]

Here is something from the USCG: https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/MSC/PRG/PRG.E2-29.2021.05.20.Lithium-Ion Batteries.pdf

 

[BobR]

And:
CG-CVC Policy Letter 20-03, “CARRIAGE OF LITHIUM-ION BATTERIES ON SMALL PASSENGER VESSELS”

CG-ENG Policy Letter 02-19, “DESIGN GUIDANCE FOR LITHIUM-ION BATTERY INSTALLATIONS ONBOARD COMMERCIAL VESSELS”

 

[wholybee]

I have a copy. They are poorly written and vague. There are both requirements and recommendations. The requirements mostly add up to "follow the manufactures instructions" and "the manufacture will provide instructions." Recommendations mostly are for BMS connectivity to chargers and alternators, and for there to be a warning alarm of some kind BEFORE the BMS disconnects.

No "drop-in" meets the recommended parts. There is some confusion about whether drop-ins meet the required parts. (Likely most of them do.) It isn't difficult to build a DIY install that fully meets both the requirements and recommendations.

 

[l00semarble]

I have them too and agree they are not very ABYC-like. Mostly follow manufacturer's instructions which is pointless with some of the Chinese stuff readily available right now. Many recommendations but not many firm standards. Kind of strange to be honest.

On overcurrent protection there is a Standard for meeting AIC by breaking down a bank if necessary to be sure that overcurrent protection meets AIS of whatever is feeding it.

"If necessary,a batterybank shall be subdivided into units such that the ampere interrupting capacity (AIC) of the overcurrent protection
device is not exceeded"

 

[CB-OTB]

Its too bad these requirements can’t be shared with those of us not in the boat building or repair industry.

 

[wholybee]

Its too bad these requirements can’t be shared with those of us not in the boat building or repair industry.

Go to the ABYC website and sign up for the free 7 day membership. Then you will have access for 7 days, and be able to download the standard.

 

[archjeb]

Hi all. It seems that these references are only to Lithium Ion batteries and not to LiFePo4 chemistry.
Other than this thread a few months ago...I don't think ABYC has addressed LiFePo4 specific chemistry?

Letter from ABYC President re LiFePo4 safety on boats

I hope they release a good complete report with photos and such. Interesting work done. ABYC President's Message Common Sense ABYC is built on a tradition of common sense and real world experiences. Early in my technical days, I was told ABYC designed the Standards...

diysolarforum.com

 

[CB-OTB]

Hi all. It seems that these references are only to Lithium Ion batteries and not to LiFePo4 chemistry.
Other than this thread a few months ago...I don't think ABYC has addressed LiFePo4 specific chemistry?

Letter from ABYC President re LiFePo4 safety on boats

I hope they release a good complete report with photos and such. Interesting work done. ABYC President's Message Common Sense ABYC is built on a tradition of common sense and real world experiences. Early in my technical days, I was told ABYC designed the Standards...

diysolarforum.com

They are grouped together.

 

[wholybee]

E-13 applies to all Lithium chemistries, including LFP.

 

[archjeb]

Interesting. I haven't read the ABYC E-13 standards, just various boating articles on this. Seemed like everything was focused around Lithium Ion because of concerns of potential thermal runaway.

 

[CB-OTB]

Interesting. I haven't read the ABYC E-13 standards, just various boating articles on this. Seemed like everything was focused around Lithium Ion because of concerns of potential thermal runaway.

They group them together because there is still the possibility (however slight it may be) of thermal runaway with LFP4, and the way you protect against it is similar Enough to other lithium batteries.

 

[Marinepower]

I am also trying to figure out these ABYC E-13.

I would like there to be a standard that the insurance industry can get behind and that a surveyor could certify. Sadly, not sure that E-13 is going to accomplish this.

It's unclear to me if a raw cell based, DIY build could meet the standard?

He is a link to a good discussion on E-13 as well as comments at the end of the article from some of the contributors who helped draft the standard.

ABYC Ratifies E-13, their first lithium battery standard

The ABYC has ratified standard E-13 for lithium ion batteries on boats. Let's take a look at the standard and what it means for boaters.

panbo.com

 

[wholybee]

A diy cell based most certainly can meet E-13. In fact, its preferred. There are more issues with drop-ins with E-13 than cell based.
Where you run into trouble is that many insurance companies want LFP installed by a professional. So it might need to be a pro installed cell based. But that also applies to drop ins, and is an insurance issue not E-13.

 

[Marinepower]

A diy cell based most certainly can meet E-13. In fact, its preferred. There are more issues with drop-ins with E-13 than cell based.
Where you run into trouble is that many insurance companies want LFP installed by a professional. So it might need to be a pro installed cell based. But that also applies to drop ins, and is an insurance issue not E-13.

Well Im glad to hear that you think raw cells can meet E-13. It's a much better way to control charge sources and to allow for separate load / charge bus.

Hard to find an installer who really know LFP. As time goes on, I suppose that will improve.

I like what Victron have done with some their packaged batteries - which have an internal balancer only and a network connection to a BMS. The price they asking though are a bit rich and i don't think their batteries have a UL listing or other certification, so perhaps could still not meet E-13.

 

[wholybee]

E-13 does not require UL listing. Victron would be an excellent choice if you want to be ABYC compliant. If you stay with the Victron ecosystem and add a wakespeed regulator controlled by the Victron BMS you will have exactly what ABYC intends or recommends people do. You probably couldn't do any better-which is why they demand a high price.
Another excellent choice would be DIY with Winson/CALB/Sinopoly cells, and a REC BMS controlling a wakespeed.
Down on the list are DIY with DALY or Overkill BMS, which meet ABYC requirements, but not recommendations. Decent communication via an app, ability to monitor or test cells with a voltmeter, but no control of charge sources.
Last choice would be the cheaper drop-ins, where there is little or no way of knowing what is going on inside, and no communication with charge sources.

 

[Marinepower]

E-13 does not require UL listing. Victron would be an excellent choice if you want to be ABYC compliant. If you stay with the Victron ecosystem and add a wakespeed regulator controlled by the Victron BMS you will have exactly what ABYC intends or recommends people do. You probably couldn't do any better-which is why they demand a high price.
Another excellent choice would be DIY with Winson/CALB/Sinopoly cells, and a REC BMS controlling a wakespeed.
Down on the list are DIY with DALY or Overkill BMS, which meet ABYC requirements, but not recommendations. Decent communication via an app, ability to monitor or test cells with a voltmeter, but no control of charge sources.
Last choice would be the cheaper drop-ins, where there is little or no way of knowing what is going on inside, and no communication with charge sources.

If a professional instal is required for insurance purposes, then Victron may be the way to go. What you over pay for the battery you will save in the install costs. I'm sure their 330ah battery (330 at a 20c. discharge rate) is just a CALB or EVE 304ah. See size and weight specs here: https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-Smart-EN.pdf

I currently have EVE 280 cells (4S) and a dual buss system (charge and discharge). Discharge is on a latching relay (BlueSea ML 7313) and charging from the alternator controlled by a Balmar 614, which is also networked into the BMS (not via CANbus, just a volt sense wire) Other charge sources are also networked into BMS (shore-charger and MPPT, both Victron products).

It would be pretty easy for me to add and Victron battery and one of their small BMS systems (VE.Bus BMS), as I already have some of the relays and wring in place.

I really like the REC BMS. I think it's tops for quality on a boat. 2 amp active balance, 2 amp relays, water tight connectors, Can Bus. I wish I had gone that route when I originally did my install.

I am using an Electrodacus Sbms0, which is very feature rich but fussy to install.

I like the CALB 180 cells and Fortune (Frey) cells. Winstons would be even better, but seem hard to find.

 

[wholybee]

Unless they have changed, victron uses Winston cells.

 

[Marinepower]

Unless they have changed, victron uses Winston cells.

Yes i thought that too (all Winstons) , but some of the newer batteries seem to be both lighter and smaller than the older models. For eg. the old Smart 300ah is 51 kg vs. the newer the smart 330ah is 30kg. Also, max discharge is 2C for the old battery and 1.4C for the newer one, suggesting a change in the cells. May just be a typo on the data sheet...

Still a great product. I am considering two of the older 160ah models for a 2P, 12volt set up.

 

[svsagres]

E-13 does not require UL listing. Victron would be an excellent choice if you want to be ABYC compliant. If you stay with the Victron ecosystem and add a wakespeed regulator controlled by the Victron BMS you will have exactly what ABYC intends or recommends people do. You probably couldn't do any better-which is why they demand a high price.
Another excellent choice would be DIY with Winson/CALB/Sinopoly cells, and a REC BMS controlling a wakespeed.
Down on the list are DIY with DALY or Overkill BMS, which meet ABYC requirements, but not recommendations. Decent communication via an app, ability to monitor or test cells with a voltmeter, but no control of charge sources.
Last choice would be the cheaper drop-ins, where there is little or no way of knowing what is going on inside, and no communication with charge sources.

Interestingly, I just noticed that REC released a new firmware (2.8.1) that comes in to flavours. Both versions will disconnect the charge contactor in case of an over voltage condition, however the behaviour differs when dealing with an under voltage situation. The -1 version will disconnect both charge and discharge contactors in case of an under voltage alarm. The -2 version will only disconnect the discharge contactor.

In my case, since I’m using a blue sea relay with manual override, I’m figuring I’ll stick with the -1 version.

2.8.1 also apparently improves compatibility with the WS500, so I’ll probably install it and see what happens.

 

[wholybee]

Yes i thought that too (all Winstons) , but some of the newer batteries seem to be both lighter and smaller than the older models. For eg. the old Smart 300ah is 51 kg vs. the newer the smart 330ah is 30kg. Also, max discharge is 2C for the old battery and 1.4C for the newer one, suggesting a change in the cells. May just be a typo on the data sheet...

Still a great product. I am considering two of the older 160ah models for a 2P, 12volt set up.

Curious. I can't imagine they would use a 304Ah cell in a 330Ah battery. Unless they are letting marketing run things. I have a 300Ah battery made from 100Ah Calb cells. The cells individually test at 110-115Ah, and I get 330+ from the battery. But I would never consider it 330Ah.

Someone with more money than me should buy a newer Victron and cut it open.

 

[Marinepower]

Curious. I can't imagine they would use a 304Ah cell in a 330Ah battery. Unless they are letting marketing run things. I have a 300Ah battery made from 100Ah Calb cells. The cells individually test at 110-115Ah, and I get 330+ from the battery. But I would never consider it 330Ah.

Someone with more money than me should buy a newer Victron and cut it open.

Well it won't be me who opens one up.

CALB cells seem like a good alternative to Winston. The 180ah version seem fairly available at about $175, which is a good deal for a safe, quality product.

I do find Victron is a little marketing heavy in their product materials. Inverters rated in volt amps and not watts. My inverter's base current draw is double what Victron states it to be. Try looking up the specs for 220 amp BatteryProtect or for an Argofet -no information on restive losses or other much other data. Blue Seas, way of contrast, is much better at disclosure of basic product specification information.

But the Smart batteries do still seem like a good product and the Victron stuff integrates very well with some good customization options.

MP

 

[l00semarble]

I can confirm that Victron is using CALB cells in at least some of its batteries. We sold some and inside the wooden crates they ship in we found these. I think these were found in a 25.6v/200ah crate.

I was trying to see what CALB cells could make up 25.6v/200ah. You can see in the other info I share below that this battery is made of 16 cells which would imply 8s2p which would require 100ah cells. CALB has a CA100 cell but they are 67mm wide so 16 in row would require 16x67mm = 1,072mm which is much larger than the Victron battery so I can't quite figure it out unless the CALB cells used are not listed on CALBs site.

The newest 12.8v/330ah battery looks to have some other brand of cells in it (the older 300ah may have CALBs).





There are plenty of clues available on Victrons website. For example we can easily see that all the current version100ah and larger 12v batteries are made up of 8 cells. All batteries are using prismatic cells. You can see the older model 12v/300ah was made with yellow WInston cells. Some of them are made with the light grey cells which look like CALB. The newer 12.8v/330ah battery has black colored cells. Can almost see a QR code.

Internal balancer board replacement procedure

 

[wholybee]

The Calb CA100 cells were discontinued. I believe they have several form factors of smaller and lighter aluminum cased cells to replace them. A quick look and I didn't see an obvious fit. But they could use either 100Ah, 200Ah, or even 230 Ah cells.

Are Victron batteries now a screw case and not glued?