l00semarble
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- Jan 1, 2022
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You can see the screwed vs glued assembly method by battery in the table I posted.
ABYC standards for marine lithium?
- Thread starter jdege
- Start date
Marinepower
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It looks like they are affixing solid copper busbars onto aluminium terminals with stainless screws (6M?) on some of the new batteries.
I'm surprised they are not using tinned, flexible busbars or welded terminals. Seems like a recipe for busbar resistance to creep in over time from vibration, cell swelling / contraction or corrosion.
I have had to do a fair amount of busbar maintenance on my boat due to these problems. I also switched from flexible copper to flexible tinned copper, which seems to help.
The old Winstons have massive terminals that can be torqued down tight. But the new Victron cell terminals look pretty fragile.
MP
I'm surprised they are not using tinned, flexible busbars or welded terminals. Seems like a recipe for busbar resistance to creep in over time from vibration, cell swelling / contraction or corrosion.
I have had to do a fair amount of busbar maintenance on my boat due to these problems. I also switched from flexible copper to flexible tinned copper, which seems to help.
The old Winstons have massive terminals that can be torqued down tight. But the new Victron cell terminals look pretty fragile.
MP
You are absolutely correct. From what I’ve personally observed. A flexible buss is highly desirable when the cells are in contact, using isolated sheet or not, compressed or not. If there’s air gap between the cells, then a solid buss is the most efficient method cost/performance for stationary no vibration service. If the buss/terminals are well welded, the connection is beyond compromise, however if the cells are in contact and not well fixtured, there could be excessive strain on the terminal base as the cells expand and contract during cycling. Only time and thousands of cycles will tell us how critical this is. As far as buss bars materials, I’ve found aluminum, tinned copper, bare copper busses are all acceptable as long as both contact surfaces are freed of oxides immediately before assembly and the use of non metallic/carbon dielectric/antioxidant grease is used. Silicone grease, NO-OX-ID A Special or marine “green” grease are superior for keeping moisture laden air out of the metal junction. To my greatest surprise, metal filed antioxidant greases containing zinc,silver or carbon, I have observed NO improved conductivity and in some cases actually less.
audiobill5
New Member
yup, the regs. came out last week!
So to meet the recommendation, you would need the BMS to have the ability to control the charge sources? Is that possible without changing out a JBD (Overkill) BMS at this point?
tpenfield
New Member
It has been 2 years since the ABYC E-13 (Lithium battery) standard was published and presumably the dust has settled a bit. I was going to get a copy of the standard (which I believe requires ABYC membership and $$), just wondering if folks have come across a publicly published 'short list' of compliance requirements?
The ones I got from research and readings so far are:
I'm probably missing a few key points. . .
Anyone got a comprehensive list without having to read through the actual standard?
The ones I got from research and readings so far are:
- Secure the battery(ies) so that there is isolation from vibration/shock and there is no visible battery movement.
- LFP4 chemistry, although safer, is treated the same as other chemistries for the purpose of compliance.
- Must have a BMS, and the BMS 'should' have an audible/visual alarm of a pending shutdown.
- Must have an alternate power source in the event of a BMS shut-down.
- Fire suppression system is area where batteries are located.
- Critical systems must have independent power source. (engines, navigation, etc.)
I'm probably missing a few key points. . .
Anyone got a comprehensive list without having to read through the actual standard?
yabert
Solar Addict
+1.
I'm also specifically interested to know more about ABYC E-13.
You can get a free 2 week trial membership, and download all the standards. I expect the only reason they offer that trail is to distribute the standard to those that want it in a controlled way, since it's the only real benefit you can use as a trial member. So don't feel guilty about doing it.
From you short list:
-Batteries mush be secured so they can't move. I don't recall anything about isolation.
-There is no discussion about LFP being safer than any other chemistry. Although ABYC has discussed it in other letters and statements, it isn't in the standard.
-Must have a BMS. The BMS must have limits set to safe operating parameters, and must be able to disconnect the battery. There must be consideration to not damage anything (I.E. the alternator) during a disconnect, but there is little guidance how.
-An alternate power source is not required, but recommended. The alternate power source can be another Lithium battery.
-A fire suppression system is not required. I don't think it is even discussed in E-13. There is also ABYC A-4 (fire fighting equipment) and ABYC E-10 (Storage Batteries) which would apply but have nothing to do with Lithium.
-Nothing about Critical systems needing an independent power source.
For the most part, there are not many requirements beyond what is required for lead-acid. There are a few (need a BMS/batteries must not move vs. can move a little bit), and a few recommendations (an alarm/alternate battery), but mostly it will discuss some topic/issue, and then conclude it by saying "follow the battery manufacturers recommendations"
$750 annual membership!?!?!?! Woah! Yeah I’d be canceling my membership before the free trial ends. Wondering if there’s another gotcha. Amazing, a standard that the related community and the USCG have accepted yet to fully see it you gotta join?
tpenfield
New Member
The ABYC website talks about a 5-day free trial, but the link doesn't really take you there . . . puts you at a $200 consumer level. Maybe you have 5 days to cancel (?)
Also, I can order the E-13 standard for $50 . . .
Also, I can order the E-13 standard for $50 . . .
Keep looking on the site. Maybe you sign up for the normal membership and don't renew. I don't remember, but I did it last year and did not even need to give them a CC, so no chance of surprise charges.
E-13 is $50. But you really need about half a dozen other electrical standards, as other standards pertaining to battery installations still apply.
E-13 is $50. But you really need about half a dozen other electrical standards, as other standards pertaining to battery installations still apply.
tpenfield
New Member
I have the E-13 standard and will be going through it. Maybe I can make a summary list for anyone interested.
tpenfield
New Member
I think the section within the E-13 standard that will get a lot of attention is requirement 13.7.4 (output disconnects) and the notes within that section. Specifically these two . . .
-> Alternate/redundant power source for critical systems . . . can be a second LFP battery within the bank.
-> Warning of approaching shutdown and notification with visible/audible alarm The wording is 'should', not 'shall' or 'must'. This is interesting, because there are no specifications of how close an operating parameter would need to be to the shutdown limit to be considered 'approaching'. As for notifying the operator before shutting down, there is no specification as to how much time is sufficient warning, and an operating parameter could change within milliseconds (such as a short circuit). Kind of like having a circuit breaker notify you before it trips . . .
So early warning may not be practical in many situations. I would imagine that the batteries with Bluetooth capabilities would be able to provide some sort of indication. For others, there is the add-on (shunt) devices, but I believe that many of these devices may only notify after a disconnect.
I think the best approach is redundancy.
-> Alternate/redundant power source for critical systems . . . can be a second LFP battery within the bank.
-> Warning of approaching shutdown and notification with visible/audible alarm The wording is 'should', not 'shall' or 'must'. This is interesting, because there are no specifications of how close an operating parameter would need to be to the shutdown limit to be considered 'approaching'. As for notifying the operator before shutting down, there is no specification as to how much time is sufficient warning, and an operating parameter could change within milliseconds (such as a short circuit). Kind of like having a circuit breaker notify you before it trips . . .
So early warning may not be practical in many situations. I would imagine that the batteries with Bluetooth capabilities would be able to provide some sort of indication. For others, there is the add-on (shunt) devices, but I believe that many of these devices may only notify after a disconnect.
I think the best approach is redundancy.
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The warning bit is pretty controversial. In the draft TE-13 it was not a note but was a requirement. The final rule downgraded it to note "should" Yes it is vague, and that is a problem. The whole document raises a lot of questions and when released it got a lot of criticism. But more so, if there is an overcurrent situation, I sure as hell do *not* want a delay while I am warned of it. An overcurrent situation is an immediate critical event that needs to be taken care of as instantly as possible. If the BMS doesn't, a fuse will, and there will be no warning anyway.
As it is now, and understanding that we explicitly can't safely have warnings for *all* impending shutdowns, a simple alarm on a Victron meter that alarms before the battery is dead will satisfy the intent of the suggestion, IMHO. Assuming a properly designed and installed system, the battery will be kept in balance, and thus cell level disconnects should be rare to nearly impossible. So only the battery being fully discharged or over charged really needs an alarm, and a Victron meter does that. If cells fall out of balance, hopefully the BMS has some Bluetooth or other monitoring and that problem can be resolved long before they are so far out of balance a disconnect occurs. Like weeks before it is an issue, not hours or minutes.
In discussions I was reading involving those on the committee before TE-13 was accepted, the examples were "you are an electric boat, approaching a bridge, and you unexpectedly lose all power." We certainly have an example of how bad that can be! But on a small boat, with a diesel engine with an alternator providing power, a battery disconnect is more of an inconvenience. You loose your inverter and can't cook, but the alternator keeps critical systems going. Or, your secondary battery keeps systems going. It just seems that the alarm is unneeded on small boats that don't use electric propulsion, and that have a secondary system of some sort.(like 2 or more drop in LFPs in parallel)
Also, keep in mind that when this was written, drop-in batteries were rare, expensive, and not very good. The authors probably didn't consider a case of 5 or 6 100Ah drop-ins in parallel, which is tons of redundancy. What was being installed then were 4 400Ah 3.2V cells and a BMS for a 400Ah/12V bank. The way systems are built now, a full loss of power is very unlikely. The fact is, loss of power is more likely with Lead Acid, where what starts as a shorted cell in one battery might go unnoticed until the whole bank has almost no usable capacity after a full charge. Or, LA batteries simply aging and the SOC meter not re calibrated with new purkert values, charge efficiency values, and new capacity values. Leading to a meter reading showing 75% SOC, but batteries going flat. Or not topping off with water often enough. You get the idea.
Also, ABYC is for insurance to be happy. Call your insurance company and ask their stance on LFP batteries.
As it is now, and understanding that we explicitly can't safely have warnings for *all* impending shutdowns, a simple alarm on a Victron meter that alarms before the battery is dead will satisfy the intent of the suggestion, IMHO. Assuming a properly designed and installed system, the battery will be kept in balance, and thus cell level disconnects should be rare to nearly impossible. So only the battery being fully discharged or over charged really needs an alarm, and a Victron meter does that. If cells fall out of balance, hopefully the BMS has some Bluetooth or other monitoring and that problem can be resolved long before they are so far out of balance a disconnect occurs. Like weeks before it is an issue, not hours or minutes.
In discussions I was reading involving those on the committee before TE-13 was accepted, the examples were "you are an electric boat, approaching a bridge, and you unexpectedly lose all power." We certainly have an example of how bad that can be! But on a small boat, with a diesel engine with an alternator providing power, a battery disconnect is more of an inconvenience. You loose your inverter and can't cook, but the alternator keeps critical systems going. Or, your secondary battery keeps systems going. It just seems that the alarm is unneeded on small boats that don't use electric propulsion, and that have a secondary system of some sort.(like 2 or more drop in LFPs in parallel)
Also, keep in mind that when this was written, drop-in batteries were rare, expensive, and not very good. The authors probably didn't consider a case of 5 or 6 100Ah drop-ins in parallel, which is tons of redundancy. What was being installed then were 4 400Ah 3.2V cells and a BMS for a 400Ah/12V bank. The way systems are built now, a full loss of power is very unlikely. The fact is, loss of power is more likely with Lead Acid, where what starts as a shorted cell in one battery might go unnoticed until the whole bank has almost no usable capacity after a full charge. Or, LA batteries simply aging and the SOC meter not re calibrated with new purkert values, charge efficiency values, and new capacity values. Leading to a meter reading showing 75% SOC, but batteries going flat. Or not topping off with water often enough. You get the idea.
Also, ABYC is for insurance to be happy. Call your insurance company and ask their stance on LFP batteries.
roly1
New Member
Yep, I would be keen. Insurance company has no clue and wants some assurance that I have worked to some kind of standard. Could you PM me the standard please. Personally I thought what I had red in pambo, SA, & CF, ABYC had really under cooked it but until I see the whole standard
that is supposition.
Roly
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