ABYC standards for marine lithium?

[svsagres]

E-13 does not require UL listing. Victron would be an excellent choice if you want to be ABYC compliant. If you stay with the Victron ecosystem and add a wakespeed regulator controlled by the Victron BMS you will have exactly what ABYC intends or recommends people do. You probably couldn't do any better-which is why they demand a high price.
Another excellent choice would be DIY with Winson/CALB/Sinopoly cells, and a REC BMS controlling a wakespeed.
Down on the list are DIY with DALY or Overkill BMS, which meet ABYC requirements, but not recommendations. Decent communication via an app, ability to monitor or test cells with a voltmeter, but no control of charge sources.
Last choice would be the cheaper drop-ins, where there is little or no way of knowing what is going on inside, and no communication with charge sources.

Interestingly, I just noticed that REC released a new firmware (2.8.1) that comes in to flavours. Both versions will disconnect the charge contactor in case of an over voltage condition, however the behaviour differs when dealing with an under voltage situation. The -1 version will disconnect both charge and discharge contactors in case of an under voltage alarm. The -2 version will only disconnect the discharge contactor.

In my case, since I’m using a blue sea relay with manual override, I’m figuring I’ll stick with the -1 version.

2.8.1 also apparently improves compatibility with the WS500, so I’ll probably install it and see what happens.

 

[wholybee]

Yes i thought that too (all Winstons) , but some of the newer batteries seem to be both lighter and smaller than the older models. For eg. the old Smart 300ah is 51 kg vs. the newer the smart 330ah is 30kg. Also, max discharge is 2C for the old battery and 1.4C for the newer one, suggesting a change in the cells. May just be a typo on the data sheet...

Still a great product. I am considering two of the older 160ah models for a 2P, 12volt set up.

Curious. I can't imagine they would use a 304Ah cell in a 330Ah battery. Unless they are letting marketing run things. I have a 300Ah battery made from 100Ah Calb cells. The cells individually test at 110-115Ah, and I get 330+ from the battery. But I would never consider it 330Ah.

Someone with more money than me should buy a newer Victron and cut it open.

 

[Marinepower]

Curious. I can't imagine they would use a 304Ah cell in a 330Ah battery. Unless they are letting marketing run things. I have a 300Ah battery made from 100Ah Calb cells. The cells individually test at 110-115Ah, and I get 330+ from the battery. But I would never consider it 330Ah.

Someone with more money than me should buy a newer Victron and cut it open.

Well it won't be me who opens one up.

CALB cells seem like a good alternative to Winston. The 180ah version seem fairly available at about $175, which is a good deal for a safe, quality product.

I do find Victron is a little marketing heavy in their product materials. Inverters rated in volt amps and not watts. My inverter's base current draw is double what Victron states it to be. Try looking up the specs for 220 amp BatteryProtect or for an Argofet -no information on restive losses or other much other data. Blue Seas, way of contrast, is much better at disclosure of basic product specification information.

But the Smart batteries do still seem like a good product and the Victron stuff integrates very well with some good customization options.

MP

 

[l00semarble]

I can confirm that Victron is using CALB cells in at least some of its batteries. We sold some and inside the wooden crates they ship in we found these. I think these were found in a 25.6v/200ah crate.

I was trying to see what CALB cells could make up 25.6v/200ah. You can see in the other info I share below that this battery is made of 16 cells which would imply 8s2p which would require 100ah cells. CALB has a CA100 cell but they are 67mm wide so 16 in row would require 16x67mm = 1,072mm which is much larger than the Victron battery so I can't quite figure it out unless the CALB cells used are not listed on CALBs site.

The newest 12.8v/330ah battery looks to have some other brand of cells in it (the older 300ah may have CALBs).





There are plenty of clues available on Victrons website. For example we can easily see that all the current version100ah and larger 12v batteries are made up of 8 cells. All batteries are using prismatic cells. You can see the older model 12v/300ah was made with yellow WInston cells. Some of them are made with the light grey cells which look like CALB. The newer 12.8v/330ah battery has black colored cells. Can almost see a QR code.

Internal balancer board replacement procedure

 

[wholybee]

The Calb CA100 cells were discontinued. I believe they have several form factors of smaller and lighter aluminum cased cells to replace them. A quick look and I didn't see an obvious fit. But they could use either 100Ah, 200Ah, or even 230 Ah cells.

Are Victron batteries now a screw case and not glued?

 

[l00semarble]

You can see the screwed vs glued assembly method by battery in the table I posted.

 

[Marinepower]

It looks like they are affixing solid copper busbars onto aluminium terminals with stainless screws (6M?) on some of the new batteries.

I'm surprised they are not using tinned, flexible busbars or welded terminals. Seems like a recipe for busbar resistance to creep in over time from vibration, cell swelling / contraction or corrosion.

I have had to do a fair amount of busbar maintenance on my boat due to these problems. I also switched from flexible copper to flexible tinned copper, which seems to help.

The old Winstons have massive terminals that can be torqued down tight. But the new Victron cell terminals look pretty fragile.

MP

 

[Skypower]

It looks like they are affixing solid copper busbars onto aluminium terminals with stainless screws (6M?) on some of the new batteries.

I'm surprised they are not using tinned, flexible busbars or welded terminals. Seems like a recipe for busbar resistance to creep in over time from vibration, cell swelling / contraction or corrosion.

I have had to do a fair amount of busbar maintenance on my boat due to these problems. I also switched from flexible copper to flexible tinned copper, which seems to help.

The old Winstons have massive terminals that can be torqued down tight. But the new Victron cell terminals look pretty fragile.

MP

You are absolutely correct. From what I’ve personally observed. A flexible buss is highly desirable when the cells are in contact, using isolated sheet or not, compressed or not. If there’s air gap between the cells, then a solid buss is the most efficient method cost/performance for stationary no vibration service. If the buss/terminals are well welded, the connection is beyond compromise, however if the cells are in contact and not well fixtured, there could be excessive strain on the terminal base as the cells expand and contract during cycling. Only time and thousands of cycles will tell us how critical this is. As far as buss bars materials, I’ve found aluminum, tinned copper, bare copper busses are all acceptable as long as both contact surfaces are freed of oxides immediately before assembly and the use of non metallic/carbon dielectric/antioxidant grease is used. Silicone grease, NO-OX-ID A Special or marine “green” grease are superior for keeping moisture laden air out of the metal junction. To my greatest surprise, metal filed antioxidant greases containing zinc,silver or carbon, I have observed NO improved conductivity and in some cases actually less.

 

[audiobill5]

yup, the regs. came out last week!

 

[Barold]

E-13 does not require UL listing. Victron would be an excellent choice if you want to be ABYC compliant. If you stay with the Victron ecosystem and add a wakespeed regulator controlled by the Victron BMS you will have exactly what ABYC intends or recommends people do. You probably couldn't do any better-which is why they demand a high price.
Another excellent choice would be DIY with Winson/CALB/Sinopoly cells, and a REC BMS controlling a wakespeed.
Down on the list are DIY with DALY or Overkill BMS, which meet ABYC requirements, but not recommendations. Decent communication via an app, ability to monitor or test cells with a voltmeter, but no control of charge sources.
Last choice would be the cheaper drop-ins, where there is little or no way of knowing what is going on inside, and no communication with charge sources.

So to meet the recommendation, you would need the BMS to have the ability to control the charge sources? Is that possible without changing out a JBD (Overkill) BMS at this point?