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Battery configured with BMS to continuously discharge more that its capcity

Magellan44

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I often see batteries for sale with continuous discharge rate at much less than their rated capacity. For example a 200ah battery continuously discharging only 100A or 150A. I always wonder why they sacrifice so much output. Only two answers occur to me. #1 the maker wants to extend battery life or #2 the maker wants you to buy 2 batteries when one would suffice. Wonder if I'm missing something. Also, I'm wondering what the drawbacks would be to having a continuous discharge rate slightly ABOVE the amp hour capacity; say configuring a 120ah battery to continuously discharge 150A. I know this is possible; but I almost never see a battery for sale configured this way. If this were done only for short times -- say 10 minutes or so -- it would seem ok to me.
 
I often see batteries for sale with continuous discharge rate at much less than their rated capacity. For example a 200ah battery continuously discharging only 100A or 150A. I always wonder why they sacrifice so much output. Only two answers occur to me. #1 the maker wants to extend battery life or #2 the maker wants you to buy 2 batteries when one would suffice. Wonder if I'm missing something. Also, I'm wondering what the drawbacks would be to having a continuous discharge rate slightly ABOVE the amp hour capacity; say configuring a 120ah battery to continuously discharge 150A. I know this is possible; but I almost never see a battery for sale configured this way. If this were done only for short times -- say 10 minutes or so -- it would seem ok to me.

So I think you are maybe confusing some terms/concepts here. To clarify, and forgive me if you already know this, Amps are a measure of electrical current or flow, Amp-hours are a measure of battery capacity. The ratio between these two is called C-rate. Having a max charge or discharge rate (amps) that matches your batteries capacity (amp-hours) is somewhat arbitrary as far as I know. Having a max c-rate less than this isn't really 'sacrificing output'. That said, many lifepo4 cells do have a max continuous C-rate of 1C, some have 2C or higher.

In answer to your specific question, I think
#1 the maker wants to extend battery life
Is the correct answer. The lower the C-rate the longer the battery life. I can't explain the chemistry/physics behind it, but I think it mostly comes down to heat. The lower the C-rate the less heat and vice versa.

I believe the semi-standardized test for capacity and life span is 0.2C (or 20A for a 100Ah cell). If you look at most any lifepo4 datasheet they will list 0.2C-0.3C as the recommended charge/discharge rate, and 1-2C as the max continuous charge/discharge rate. At least this has been my anecdotal experience.

I actually haven't come across many cells that advertise max continuous c-rates less than 1C, which batteries or cells are you referring to?

Also, I'm wondering what the drawbacks would be to having a continuous discharge rate slightly ABOVE the amp hour capacity; say configuring a 120ah battery to continuously discharge 150A.

Well as we've already discussed, heat plus limiting its lifespan and speeding up capacity loss. But beyond this, if a battery is continously discharged at its Ah capacity (so 100A for a 100Ah battery) it will be 100% depleted in an hour, higher than 1C and it will be depleted in less than an hour.

But there are many cells that do have C-rates above 1C. These CALB cells are rated to 2C, these Fortune cells are rated to 10C. It might be the case that larger cells have lower C ratings as they can dissipate heat less easily but this is pure speculation.
 
My understanding is that battery capacity is rated over a 20 hr discharge period , so a 100Ah battery will yield 5 amps / hr for 20 hrs. This constitutes a 0,05C rate. So , a 100Ah battery will not yield 100 amps for 1 hr because of the Peukert formula. I think that this standard 20 hr discharge period is to level the playing field for stating the capacities of different chemistries.
The Peukert formula basically states that the capacity of a battery is inversely proportional to the load.
 
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My understanding is that battery capacity is rated over a 20 hr discharge period , so a 100Ah battery will yield 5 amps / hr for 20 hrs. This constitutes a 0,05C rate. So , a 100Ah battery will not yield 100 amps for 1 hr because of the Peukert formula. I think that this standard 20 hr discharge period is to level the playing field for stating the capacities of different chemistries.
The Peukert formula basically states that the capacity of a battery is inversely proportional to the load.

I'm far from knowledgeable on this matter but I'm pretty sure that this (20 Hour rate) only applies to lead acid, and is not make comparison between chemistries possible but is to standardize comparison within lead acid (since C rate has such a big effect on capacity with lead acid). For non-lead-acid batteries I don't think the 20 hour rate has much relevance.

I believe Lifepo4 capacity testing has coalesced (or is coalescing) around a 0.2C (C/5) rate. But the effect of C rate on capacity with lithium is pretty minimal compared to lead acid

Here is an example from the 280Ah EVE cell datasheet everyone is buying:

Screenshot_20200611_032912.png
 
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I'm far from knowledgeable on this matter but I'm pretty sure that this (20 Hour rate) only applies to lead acid, and is not make comparison between chemistries possible but is to standardize comparison within lead acid (since C rate has such a big effect on capacity with lead acid). For non-lead-acid batteries I don't think the 20 hour rate has much relevance.

I believe Lifepo4 capacity testing has coalesced (or is coalescing) around a 0.2C (C/5) rate. But the effect of C rate on capacity with lithium is pretty minimal compared to lead acid

Here is an example from the 280Ah EVE cell datasheet everyone is buying:

View attachment 15196
I understand your logic and reasoning - makes sense. I am also no expert on the matter , just trying to understand a lot of things about LFP ;)
 
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My understanding is that battery capacity is rated over a 20 hr discharge period , so a 100Ah battery will yield 5 amps / hr for 20 hrs. This constitutes a 0,05C rate. So , a 100Ah battery will not yield 100 amps for 1 hr because of the Peukert formula. I think that this standard 20 hr discharge period is to level the playing field for stating the capacities of different chemistries.
The Peukert formula basically states that the capacity of a battery is inversely proportional to the load.
I should have made clear that I had in mind lithium batteries. Peukert's formula does not apply to lithium batteries.
 
Did my initial response help answer your question or did I miss your point?
 
Did my initial response help answer your question or did I miss your point?
DZL, thanks for your effort. First, I left out I was interested only in lithium batteries so Peukert's Law and even heat are not factors I'm considering. I AM aware of the difference between capacity and current and this is where I think battery makers are selling us short. They're selling large capacity batteries with limiting BMS's so that often the C rate is below the Ah rate. This means you have to buy 2 or more to power simple things like microwaves. Try finding a 150ah battery that will continuously discharge 150A I've even seen 200ah batteries discharging max 100A. Of course the batteries will last longer at these low C rates but hey, lithium batteries last very long at full C and above rates.
 
DZL, thanks for your effort. First, I left out I was interested only in lithium batteries so Peukert's Law and even heat are not factors I'm considering.

That was the other commenter who brought up Peukert's law, my comment was only meant to apply to lifepo4.

But regarding heat, I don't think you should discount it. From what I've learned here and elsewhere heat is one of the biggest factors effecting lifepo4 lifespan. And C-rate will does effect temperature (less so at low C rates).

Of course ideally it should be up to the user to determine how hard they want to push their batteries, but most people buying drop-in batteries are not going to have the knowledge to make an informed decision, and because drop in manufactures often warranty the batteries for long periods of time, I can understand manufacturers being more conservative. This may be one reason for the trend you noticed

Another reason might be that, there aren't a lot of FET based BMS' above ~120-150A continuous (Daly and ANT being exceptions to this), and those that are available are not small, and usually not cheap. And most of us here don't trust these BMS to handle their stated max current.

I AM aware of the difference between capacity and current and this is where I think battery makers are selling us short. They're selling large capacity batteries with limiting BMS's so that often the C rate is below the Ah rate.

Sorry, I see now that you are aware of the difference but it seems like you may be hung up on the connection between BMS current rating (amps) equaling battery capacity (amp hours) which seems arbitrary to me, beyond equaling 1C--a nice round number. Maybe I'm still misinterpreting what you are concerned with.

That said, its reasonable to want a BMS that can match your batteries max continuous discharge rating. And your concerns below are reasonable:

This means you have to buy 2 or more to power simple things like microwaves. Try finding a 150ah battery that will continuously discharge 150A I've even seen 200ah batteries discharging max 100A. Of course the batteries will last longer at these low C rates but hey, lithium batteries last very long at full C and above rates.

Of course you could just use two 100Ah batteries in parallel to double your max charge/discharge rate or in series to half your amps. Or use raw cells and the BMS of your choice.

I'm still hoping you will give some examples of the batteries that limit you to less than 1C. Its not something I've come across, but I don't pay much attention to drop-ins so that doesn't mean much.

Here is a 200Ah battery that advertises 200A continuous discharge. I don't know anything about it but I think Will has done a video on the Brand before.
 
Just saw a battery for sale that's a good example oLow discharge rate.JPGf what I'm talking about. Hard for me to understand why they restrict discharge to below capacity and it is by no means uncommon
 
DZL sorry for my screwup above. Here's my full text and a snapshot of a battery I just now came across.
Just saw a battery for sale that's a good example of what I'm talking about. Hard for me to understand why they set the BMS to restrict discharge to below capacity and it is by no means uncommon
Low discharge rate.JPG
 

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DZL sorry for my screwup above. Here's my full text and a snapshot of a battery I just now came across.
Just saw a battery for sale that's a good example of what I'm talking about. Hard for me to understand why they set the BMS to restrict discharge to below capacity and it is by no means uncommon
Low discharge rate.JPG

Thanks, I can't tell who the manufacturer is from the screenshot, do you have a link?
 
Thanks, I can't tell who the manufacturer is from the screenshot, do you have a link?
Sorry, I should have made a note. I've been following a lot of companies on Alibaba. As I recall this was one of the larger ones although I realize that doesn't help much
 
My liFePo4 aluminum case 100ah cell is labeled with "Discharge: 200A cont. 500A surge less than 5 sec."
 
My liFePo4 aluminum case 100ah cell is labeled with "Discharge: 200A cont. 500A surge less than 5 sec."
Zil, could you let me know the brand of your 100ah battery? The other day, I saw Lion Battery rated 105ah and configured to continuously discharge 150A. Seems manufacturers are all over the place in setting their continuous discharge rate. Discharging a 100ah battery too often or too long at a 2C rate would probably shorten its life although I have no actual data to support this.
 
I bought them from OverKillSolar.com. I bought them through Amazon but he now only offers them on his web site. I can't say if they are good or bad at this point.
 
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