Beginner seeking advice

[dr00p]

Dear Everyone,

I posted an hello on the forum, though while posting I found myself pouring out my last weeks about deciding what to buy as an first install for my home.

Long story short: I am in the market for some first steps in PV land. We have a shed, where 6 PV panels will be installed first. And an expasion of the roof of the shed, later on, which will make room for 2 extra panels. So 8 panels at first.

Solar panels and materials are for sale without taxes where I live, as an impulse to make people buy them.

Right now there is for example an 375W mono black panel from AEG for sale, for 44 Euros (Euro = Dollar just for convienence), which would pair nicely with an IQ8+ from Enphase. Which would clip at 290W max. And is for sale at €75,50-. And just for laughs I took 60% of that, as an reasonable amount of solar power to be expected. So €119,50

Though I was eyeing anohter panel from Aiko a bit more. An AIKO-A-MAH54Db Neostar 2s+. Which is brand new available this month, and an iteration of an previous panel. This is for sale at €114,50, for the so-called best, 460W panel. This would pair nicely with the IQ8AC or HC (ratio of 1.26 or 1.20 respectively). Which maxes out at 385W before clipping. Since the HC is available for 10 euros more at €125,- I opted for this one. So a set of this would be €239,50.

Ratio meaning that the panel is a little bigger sized, more watt power, than the inverter.

Up front, because I am already again making the mistake: The cables and metering, extra materials for the Enphase, are about a €1000,-. Enphase cables are expensive! Or seem to be anyway.

So even with 6 AEG/IQ8+ the cables and stuff make it a somewhat expensive purchase anyway. And my mind has been wondering between the two for a while now.

Reasons to like Enphase, for me as a beginner researching: The got a good name. Good warranty it seems. Low failure rate. As a plumber I don't object to go on the roof. Flexibility to play around. Free accesable info, though as I understand Enphase isn't totally DIY friendly, but far as I can see there's enough ways to not be an issue. Seemingly pretty cheap almost, for what it was (thought that can also be a giveaway that there is better stuff at the market these days).
Was so set on Enphase that I already put an 25 meter (75 foot) AWG 8 (10mm2) cable in the ground from my shed to my house where the thing is (the grid connection...), because of AC and voltage drop (I am by no means an electrician! A plumber and a life long tinkerer. But if I say something silly, here is the * up front .
An against would be that a string inverter would mean higher voltages, and more harvest from your panels (sorry, my English slips away a bit).

Anyhow. Two things. I put above in an excel sheet. Double the money means about 30 percent more power. Though than I noticed that 15 AEG/IQ8+ panels would cost less than 8 Aiko/IQ8HC panel combo (1792,50 vs 1916 euros, excluding cabling and such, also no montage stuff). And would also be more power (2430W vs 1728W), and that is, I think, conservative counting (I calculated with each panel producing 60%, so 162W vs 216W for AEG or Aiko respectively).
Though I think I tackeled that for myself. Because while more panels (15 is what I have room for) is horny, about 7 of them need to go on the roof of my house, instead of the shed. And there is no room for that at this time of the year.

So, being a wee amount of panels, I am kinda thinking of the Aiko/IQ8HC combo.

Though, even though 6 panels initially, the savings is half. So that is not nothing. Even when you talk about little money.
Also reason for being torn is I have no idea what to expect between the AEG and the Aiko panels apart from the wattage. But would the Aiko panel really get that much more wattage?
One reason for it would be that is Glas-Glass, and gets (up to 10 to 30 percent) more light from reflective surfaces. But here it will be on a black roof. Both the shed as my house.
AEG actually also has a similar panel, being glas-glass and getting reflecting on the backside or so. I think an 410W model, for about 60 or 70 euros?
But apart from that, other reasons to assume a new 2024 panel would be that much better than an 2022 panel, other than the power upbring alone? So more power in shade I mean for example. How much to expect from something like that?

We had an amount of 2700 euros in mind for an install like above. Will be placing everything myself. Though switching on will be done by a electrician, after he checks everything. So but an budget of about 3000 euros for materials. Panels, Inverter, mounting, cables, etc.

I really wanted to make this short.. Just sum up some things.
Anyway, so question about above: What are your thoughts? New but bit more expensive panel? Or cheaper but saving money. And maybe install more later on. (more will be installed later on anyway, in both cases).

And I was also eying Victron, The Solar MPPT RS , is how I found out that the youtube guy is from this forum. And with the eye on grid-tied battery for home, for using at night what you stored by day, I think a Victron would be nice.

So I am in the middle of whatever, deciding where to put my money. Got about 3000 euros. Thought of 6 panels for now. They will be south oriented. What would you buy if you had to?

We would like to have about 3000kW/year in the end. That is not gonna happen with 6 panels So but 6 panels is just a start.

Thanks for reading, Kind regards,
Maurits

 

[Q-Dog]

WHY do you want solar? What do you want to accomplish?

 

[robbob2112]

First - STOP!! - don't buy another thing until you have a plan in place - as you already are figuring out buying twice can get expensive quick.

Second an energy audit to see what you want to run off the panels.

Third - unless you have significant shading you can't avoid there is really no need for micro-inverters.

If you do have shading where you want to put the panels can you run multiple strings to avoid it at different times of the day? i.e. an east string, west string, and south string?

As for lost production from shading - it is usually FAR cheaper to just buy a few extra panels to make up the difference than to do micro-inverters.

Losses from voltage - you can easily run series or series parallel strings to pump the DC voltage up to a few hundred volts or whatever your MPPT can use.

Just wandering into solar and buying random equipment and making it all work can be done, but it will cost you twice what doing it right with a plan will.

Enphase is a fine MFG, but they are spendy to buy and spendy to repair if needed. And building in redundancy so you can run with 1 part down is really spendy.

Other brands that can stack AIO inverters (all in one) or ones like Victron that are built out of separate pieces can easily. Then if you build a larger system you can either spare one of each type equipment or you can just run without some of the duplication.

I originally was stuck on ordering a Sol-Ark 15k AIO but now 6 months later of reading I am leaning towards Victron or Schnieder.


Oh, and watch any of the youtube videos with a grain of salt - they seldom ever get everything done right or proper - Most did one install after watching someone else's youtube then put their video out. Others are doing things in a way that would work but would never pass any sort of electrical inspection.

Even our friend @Will Prowse doesn't do a lot of things that would pass a safety inspection or an NEC inspection. And you can see his videos change in style and content over the years. They get better with how to do some things but he seem to have originated with van installs and carries a lot of that with him. And I suspect he shys away from some aspects of an install more because he doesn't want the liability of someone following his design cookie cutter and burning their house down or he hasn't passed an electricians exam so just doesn't know some things until he runs into them and has to research.

Which leads to the next suggestion:
I know you won't be following the NEC, but there will be some sort of standards body that you need to follow. Would be good to look up the rules and know what they are before you buy a lot of stuff that doesn't meet that code. And if you choose to break with that code you will at least know what it is and you can usually figure out why they do things a certain way.

i.e. if you are gonna break rules, know what they are so you don't get caught.

 

[Gold Country Russ]

First - STOP!! - don't buy another thing until you have a plan in place - as you already are figuring out buying twice can get expensive quick.

Second an energy audit to see what you want to run off the panels.

Third - unless you have significant shading you can't avoid there is really no need for micro-inverters.

If you do have shading where you want to put the panels can you run multiple strings to avoid it at different times of the day? i.e. an east string, west string, and south string?

As for lost production from shading - it is usually FAR cheaper to just buy a few extra panels to make up the difference than to do micro-inverters.

Losses from voltage - you can easily run series or series parallel strings to pump the DC voltage up to a few hundred volts or whatever your MPPT can use.

Just wandering into solar and buying random equipment and making it all work can be done, but it will cost you twice what doing it right with a plan will.

Enphase is a fine MFG, but they are spendy to buy and spendy to repair if needed. And building in redundancy so you can run with 1 part down is really spendy.

Other brands that can stack AIO inverters (all in one) or ones like Victron that are built out of separate pieces can easily. Then if you build a larger system you can either spare one of each type equipment or you can just run without some of the duplication.

I originally was stuck on ordering a Sol-Ark 15k AIO but now 6 months later of reading I am leaning towards Victron or Schnieder.


Oh, and watch any of the youtube videos with a grain of salt - they seldom ever get everything done right or proper - Most did one install after watching someone else's youtube then put their video out. Others are doing things in a way that would work but would never pass any sort of electrical inspection.

Even our friend @Will Prowse doesn't do a lot of things that would pass a safety inspection or an NEC inspection. And you can see his videos change in style and content over the years. They get better with how to do some things but he seem to have originated with van installs and carries a lot of that with him. And I suspect he shys away from some aspects of an install more because he doesn't want the liability of someone following his design cookie cutter and burning their house down or he hasn't passed an electricians exam so just doesn't know some things until he runs into them and has to research.

Which leads to the next suggestion:
I know you won't be following the NEC, but there will be some sort of standards body that you need to follow. Would be good to look up the rules and know what they are before you buy a lot of stuff that doesn't meet that code. And if you choose to break with that code you will at least know what it is and you can usually figure out why they do things a certain way.

i.e. if you are gonna break rules, know what they are so you don't get caught.

I agree, slow down, define goal, make a plan, make a list, and then execute. Buying a package can sometimes save money too.

 

[dr00p]

Hi Q-Dog, Robbob2112 and Gold Country Russ again! Thanks for replying! Also thanks for the advice. I do try to slow down a bit. And will look into the package deals. I did notice a bit, but should look into it a bit more.

Upfront I want to not that I also had some replies in my saying hello thread, and also want to say sorry, for that I now have posted the same thing in two threads essentially.

But actually, honestly, I already noticed that, where I am looking at a small €3000,- figure for what I am eyeing, there are also packages for 2000ish with everything in and on it. Even mounting material, which I do not have factored in.

I didn't wrote about it yet, but mounting stuff can be ridiculous expensive! But I wont bother you with another epistel

Anyway, up until now I did manage to look right pass those packages. I was really set on the Enphase stuff for some reason. And doing/researching everything myself. In that sense I guess I really am a hobbiest, hobby-guy. Because you are most right when you write that this probably will cost me more, rushing in buying stuff, than making a plan. Though somewhere I already do know that to be expected, . And while I do can spend my money only once, I also do account for that tinkering I guess.

So for that matter, why solar panels? the interest in PV is sparked by neighbours, which got them recently. Though the guy putting them there, well... Made me want to do it myself .. I'm a 20+ year experience plumber. No electrical schooling. Though some industrial, and a lot of hobby, experience; I should be able to wire stuff up neatly.
But I'm aware I'm no electrician. And alway have had an healthy respect for the trades. So whatever ends up here, it will be checked by a licensed someone before starting up.
Also the prices for solar is so low that not doing it now is just dumb. So that is a trigger. We have a household of roughly 3000kW/year. Three persons. So said to be that we are a little under average which appearantly is about 3500kW/year. 6 x 460W panels would make about 2,7 kW system (on paper), or, I think kind of worst-case scenario? 60% of that, reallife to be expected Watts? Which is roughly 1,7kW. So that doesn't cut it.
That is stupidly not the goal. While now knowing the prices are so low that now is the time to buy them if you hadn't yet, so to say. I still lean more towards 6 panels. While adding roof to the shed makes room for 2 extra panels. Which is done before summer. So those are the ammount (8) I guess I want to buy initially.
Because I had thought about adding them on the roof of the house right away. But there is some work to be done there first. And that won't be done before summer. Quite some work there.
So by the time the house roof would be done, there probably will be other sales and such.

So endgoal is being able to generate the power we use. But in the meantime I do want to start ahead so to say. And I than rivet towards the Aiko panels, because of more upbring with with the same amount of space. So to have a lower bill. Also the battery story is interesting, I think, and makes me float towards a Victron system.
While for example SolarEdge really does seem nice. Also their energy storage stuff, I do not know about. I do not know how that would be wired when set against a Victron (has RV style wiring , does that make sense if I name it so?). I do not know how SolarEdge, or similair, has thought that out.
And for that matter, battery idea is to be less depended, use at night what you make at day, be a little prepared or so, for when energy prices go nuts.

That Schneider does seem nice by the way. Sadly, and suprisingly, they are not for sale in Europe, I guess? Or better said, whenever I google that thing I end up in the USA We do have a lot of other Schneider stuff.

Have a good night,

 

[robbob2112]

Does your bill show you what your daily use is by hour?

Or, try and make a list of all of you high use items and their wattage.

The goal being to figure out your peak wattage at one time. That can be crossed to what size inverters you need.

What is your voltage there? 220 single phase? Or somethihg else?

 

[dr00p]

Hey, here is single fase 230V yes.

Thanks for the tips! We can see day time use, though not individual use. I will work on finding out our use. Thanks!

 

[robbob2112]

For large equipment a clamp meter will tell you how many amps that device is using. For smaller things here we have a kill-o-watt meter, I assume there will be similar there.