robby
Photon Vampire
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That signal seems to be repeating every 16.4ms?
Best equipment for ham radio (no rfi interfere)
- Thread starter 73powerstroke
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Prince Of Darkness
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As you know, the MPPT CCs are larage switchers, banging on an inductor. All of those switching edges, contain a lot of HF energy, that can easily be Conducted by (primarily) the PV input cables. YES, there seems to be little that we can do about shielding the cell connection busbars of our PVs. And, for some reason, here, a low-band vertical antenna does pick up a lot of CC birdies (MN Classics, and the venerable OB MX-60s). But as was noted, the low bands are usually not that interesting when our CCs are cranking out a lot of energy.
For CCs, there are no required Emission tests, by FCC Part 15, class B, below 30 mHz (because Line Conducted emissions tests under Part 15 use a defined AC line interface (a LISN)). But since stand-alone MPPT CCs generally do not connect to the AC line, Line Conducted emissions test, and compliance is is not an FCC requirement. Line conducted tests begin at either 100, or 150 kHz, and end at 30 mHz, which is MF and HF territory.
All, IMO, and so on. 73 GL to all. 'Luke'
I have a ton of ham equipment, etc, but I know nothing about it. My late father was a ham operator since the 60’s he built a setup from stuff in IRAN to get and maintain communications during the hostage situation… he was one of the first set of hostages, and got tortured…
Yes and it was changing back and forth. Do you see a significance in that number?That signal seems to be repeating every 16.4ms?
Wow, sorry to hear that Supervstech
Part of the problem is always in the details. An amateur radio is expecting to see nothing but pure dc input. A solar charge controller is ONLY designed to charge a battery. But now, as seen in this vid (not bagging on the op, perhaps he didn't know), his power source is now a battery with very minute microprocessor/switching noise on the dc input.
I know this is conducted noise on the dc input, and not radiated, because when my similar radio is placed 3 inches away from a Genasun, but is merely charging a battery totally isolated from the radio, it is quiet.
That's why when someone makes a recommendation in the amateur field, details are extremely important, otherwise it leads to endless technical harangues because the parties are not on the same page.
"My Genasun is dirty!"
"No, mine is totally clean!"
Part of the problem is always in the details. An amateur radio is expecting to see nothing but pure dc input. A solar charge controller is ONLY designed to charge a battery. But now, as seen in this vid (not bagging on the op, perhaps he didn't know), his power source is now a battery with very minute microprocessor/switching noise on the dc input.
I know this is conducted noise on the dc input, and not radiated, because when my similar radio is placed 3 inches away from a Genasun, but is merely charging a battery totally isolated from the radio, it is quiet.
That's why when someone makes a recommendation in the amateur field, details are extremely important, otherwise it leads to endless technical harangues because the parties are not on the same page.
"My Genasun is dirty!"
"No, mine is totally clean!"
robby
Photon Vampire
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Roughly 60Hz Frequency. Just way to coincidental, it has to be AC power from the Inverter leaking back.
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73powerstroke
Solar Enthusiast
You can definitely learn and apply for his call sign. Probably make him smile if he knew. There's many facets to amateur radio.
If that amateur saw this thread, then perhaps if he has to run with a battery and an scc hanging on it, he could do the pair of 0.1uf caps trick across the Genasun's output, and grounded in between the caps.
Amateurs aren't the major sales demographic for scc manufacturers.
Amateur radios are expecting clean pure dc, so they may not add to the cost of having heavy duty dc input filtering.
Perhaps adding the caps to the Genasun would be easier to implement, than placing that cap filtering itself inside the rig. This riddling question could last for HOURS on air. Part of the fun I guess.
Amateurs aren't the major sales demographic for scc manufacturers.
Amateur radios are expecting clean pure dc, so they may not add to the cost of having heavy duty dc input filtering.
Perhaps adding the caps to the Genasun would be easier to implement, than placing that cap filtering itself inside the rig. This riddling question could last for HOURS on air. Part of the fun I guess.
robby
Photon Vampire
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I agree with 73powerstroke, you should get your license and get on the air. Ham radio is a lot of fun and very rewarding.
Take a picture of what you got and post it. We may be able to spot some Gems in the collection.
Like a steel crank up tower, never unpacked from the original purchase in 1981…
robby
Photon Vampire
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What about Radios or Amplifiers?
73powerstroke
Solar Enthusiast
I love 80s stuff. I have lots of 80s radios
Mostly yaesu. Towers I don't have lol.
At night time there's a group of guys in California and Arizona on 3.900mhz that sound like they are all from this forum almost, talking about solar. Almost every night. Really nice guys.
Tons and tons of stuff.
73powerstroke
Solar Enthusiast
If you post a picture I can tell you all about what you have.
73powerstroke
Solar Enthusiast
So the capacitor trick works on one array well but it doesn't work on another that I think is closer to the antenna
Here's a video demonstration of how well it actually works. Pretty amazing ? ?
Here's a video demonstration of how well it actually works. Pretty amazing ? ?
By far the very lowest EMI/RFI inverter is the Exeltech.......these are built for the communications industry.
They are not cost competitive with cheap gear....!!!
As far as low EMI/RFI from a solar charge controller.......lots of luck , except for non-switch mode they ALL emit trash on the ham bands I.E. NOT MPPT or PWM ,,,, simple series or shunt mode regulators lots of luck finding those
I engineered my own only to be used only for that use....( no where as near efficient as PWM or MPPT)
Closely matched panels to battery will result in 80-85 % effeciency verses >96% for a good MPPT such as the Classic, Outback, or Schneider
My main controllers are Midnight Classic’s 150’s using the minimum difference between battery charge voltage vs panel voltage....( results is way less EMI/RFI than systems using large difference between battery voltage and panel voltage) This alone will reduce EMI/RFI drastically.....a point missed by most users
Way to make lots of EMI/RFI.....use a 600 volt controller to charge a 24 volt or 48 volt battery...
My experience........Licensed Communications Engineer (since 1964)
Note......American made gear must meet FCC class B emissions standards....I have never seen any Chinese gear that does meet FCC Class B emissions standards
They are not cost competitive with cheap gear....!!!
As far as low EMI/RFI from a solar charge controller.......lots of luck , except for non-switch mode they ALL emit trash on the ham bands I.E. NOT MPPT or PWM ,,,, simple series or shunt mode regulators lots of luck finding those
I engineered my own only to be used only for that use....( no where as near efficient as PWM or MPPT)
Closely matched panels to battery will result in 80-85 % effeciency verses >96% for a good MPPT such as the Classic, Outback, or Schneider
My main controllers are Midnight Classic’s 150’s using the minimum difference between battery charge voltage vs panel voltage....( results is way less EMI/RFI than systems using large difference between battery voltage and panel voltage) This alone will reduce EMI/RFI drastically.....a point missed by most users
Way to make lots of EMI/RFI.....use a 600 volt controller to charge a 24 volt or 48 volt battery...
My experience........Licensed Communications Engineer (since 1964)
Note......American made gear must meet FCC class B emissions standards....I have never seen any Chinese gear that does meet FCC Class B emissions standards
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Ok, looks like amateurs need to put the Exeltech inverters on the test list. Low emi/rfi might be worth the additional cost.
I've had very good luck with Morningstar, Genasun, and some others pwm and mppt. But are we on the same page as to how we hook it up ??
I don't hang these off the dc rails (via the battery of course) of my transceiver, which maybe has a simple cap on the input.
That is, in my scenario, I have TWO batteries - and using a "hot swap" arrangement to keep charging and discharging needs totally isolated. Thus the dc rails of the transceiver never see any noise thrown onto it.
Radiated emi from an inverter is a different story - so we'll stick for now on the SCC issues.
When my system is isolated like this, I can bring nearly any SCC to about 3 inches away from my antenna feedline, or even say a short vertical and not hear *anything*.
This is the example I've tried to point out - as amateurs we are quick to point the finger, but I'll bet that 99% are hanging a controller on the battery dc rails - and hence noise is modulated onto it - which the transceiver was never designed to handle, expecting only a battery or power supply - not an SCC tagged onto that line.
So when making conclusions, one has to be very careful between radiated emi/rfi, and *conducted* noise traveling down the dc input path - and depending on grounding - that noise has been conducted all over the ground of the transceiver itself, which it was not designed to handle - typically like a single 100uf electrolytic cap on the dc input leads.
What makes it even more confusing (and probably why this thread is best left to amateur forums), is that now that a possible very clean SCC from a radiated emi/rfi standpoint, but puts a bit of junk on the dc output rails, travels to your transceiver, and since the coax is sharing the ground of that, if it has common-mode issues, it travels right up to your feedpoint where it *acts* like rfi/emi.
Propeller-head time. The simplest solution if you can't use the cap-trick to clean up gear that was not designed to operate with each other in the first place, might be to adopt the two-battery hot-swap system for total isolation of charge and discharge duties.
From a charge controller standpoint ...
I've had very good luck with Morningstar, Genasun, and some others pwm and mppt. But are we on the same page as to how we hook it up ??
I don't hang these off the dc rails (via the battery of course) of my transceiver, which maybe has a simple cap on the input.
That is, in my scenario, I have TWO batteries - and using a "hot swap" arrangement to keep charging and discharging needs totally isolated. Thus the dc rails of the transceiver never see any noise thrown onto it.
Radiated emi from an inverter is a different story - so we'll stick for now on the SCC issues.
When my system is isolated like this, I can bring nearly any SCC to about 3 inches away from my antenna feedline, or even say a short vertical and not hear *anything*.
This is the example I've tried to point out - as amateurs we are quick to point the finger, but I'll bet that 99% are hanging a controller on the battery dc rails - and hence noise is modulated onto it - which the transceiver was never designed to handle, expecting only a battery or power supply - not an SCC tagged onto that line.
So when making conclusions, one has to be very careful between radiated emi/rfi, and *conducted* noise traveling down the dc input path - and depending on grounding - that noise has been conducted all over the ground of the transceiver itself, which it was not designed to handle - typically like a single 100uf electrolytic cap on the dc input leads.
What makes it even more confusing (and probably why this thread is best left to amateur forums), is that now that a possible very clean SCC from a radiated emi/rfi standpoint, but puts a bit of junk on the dc output rails, travels to your transceiver, and since the coax is sharing the ground of that, if it has common-mode issues, it travels right up to your feedpoint where it *acts* like rfi/emi.
Propeller-head time. The simplest solution if you can't use the cap-trick to clean up gear that was not designed to operate with each other in the first place, might be to adopt the two-battery hot-swap system for total isolation of charge and discharge duties.
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I do have two completely separate systems which are not interconnected in any way so when I need low noise mode my radio’s and medical gear are only connected to the fully charged bank. The solar input charges the other bank. Most of the EMI/RFI is radiated down the wiring, not emitted through the air. Each system is large enough to fully power my needs. 100% redundancy....I have had only one “lights out” power failure in over 30 years...My trusty Cotek SK-1500 inverter failed but throwing a few switches I had full power in minutes.
On Exeltech.....All U.S. Embassies worldwide are equipped with Exeltech inverters to power the “Last Ditch” communications network in case it all goes to sh**
On Exeltech.....All U.S. Embassies worldwide are equipped with Exeltech inverters to power the “Last Ditch” communications network in case it all goes to sh**
Right on - you run like I do! Sure simplifies the noise issue - or at least lets me track down stupid stuff like panel displays actually doing rfi/emi.
Interesting - I've been a Samlex guy for a long time, but I'll look into Exeltech!
Interesting - I've been a Samlex guy for a long time, but I'll look into Exeltech!
73powerstroke
Solar Enthusiast
Wow ? you made some good points about the voltage. I noticed that myself when I went to 3s back to 2 series.
Thanks for this info. It's really good info most over look like you said.
So how can you use the panels with out a cc?
73powerstroke
Solar Enthusiast
Like I said I don't hook my radios to anything but grid. I'm not going to trust 500 to 2k in equipment to a Chinesium inverter. And I sure don't want to feed it off a nasty mpp. I'm also 24v system w 26 panels. My system is simply to run my ac for free during the day
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I am using a CC.......just not what you expected. I use a simple series regulator which is analogue.....pass transistors with a control circuit. It does not switch like a PWM or MPPT. Operates as a series resistance between the battery and the solar array. Very simple but not terribly efficient. It does waste 30 % of the power as heat.
On the main system I use mostly Classic 150’s but this is for general use, and yes I do get EMI/RFI on that system
In some applications like my wi-fi repeater which is 3 miles from my house use only very small amounts of power. It consists of two routers back to back “bending the wi-fi signal over a ridge top” I have a 20 watt panel there with a simple series regulator, it really doesn't matter if I waste 20-40 % of the power. Both transmitters draw only a few watts.
I do have quite a few good controllers including two Classic 150’s and two Kid’s and a 60 amp PWM Morningstar but for my medical use the EMI is not tolerated by my medical device which uses multiple waveforms for direct use in the body. This system is totally isolated from everything else. Its 20-30 watts and a small AGM battery with a simple series regulator. The medical use is measured in milliwatts.........Its not about the effeciency here but the NO EMI/RFI that makes wasting 10-20 watts to get a few watts very pure is totally worth it.
The wi-fi repeater uses only 1-2 watts at maximum throughput so wasting most of a 20 watt panel is no big deal.
Im using DDWRT software which is downloaded to Linksys WRT54GL routers making them do things that they will not do out of the box. I run at about 180-200 mw output from the transmitter chips into a 30 dbi gain parabolic dish antenna and get 12-20 miles range on wi-fi........dont try this at home if you can see the antenna in front of you! The router/repeaters and highly directional antenna’s are located 30 feet up a communications tower.
Good information on this can be found at DDWRT.COM in Dresden, Germany......READ...the WIKI
I started tinkering electricity before the transistor was in popular use......doing solar in 1965-1966 there was no MPPT or even PWM......We used simple series or shunt regulators or big zener diodes to protect the battery banks from overcharge
The funny thing is my inverters (LV 6548)are cleaner and have a better sine wave than the grid. The only exception is when the only thing on (light load) is the Keurig coffee maker is working (pulses on and off to control the heating element) which plays havoc with the inverter trying to hold exact voltage at low load. The sine wave still isn’t too bad but just enough to mess a bit with the cheaper LED lighting. An all band receiver is actually better when off grid in the house as long as the antenna sides are away from the ground array outside. Dang that charge control section of the inverter dumps noise out to the panels.
All of my inverters are way cleaner waveshape than the grid. The whole problem with the grid is there is lots of trash running down the lines. Modern switch mode welders, switching power supplies, etc. make a soup of EMI which is not in phase with each other and often makes very strange combinations of wave shape when they combine on the lines. With my oscilloscope connected to the grid its not a pretty picture, Tectronics 350 mhz analog 4 channel shows 10 khz signals riding down the 60 hz lines, they are filtered off to a point but still not a pretty waveshape. My cleanest power supply waveshape is my Onan 6.5 kw generator....by far, but this beast is a huge old cast iron unit with huge rotating mass at 1800 rpm unlike portable generators which are always 3600 rpm (cheaper...) but way less stable and way dirtier waveshape, probably has something to do with rotating mass and 80 lb. of copper in the generator windings verses the modern chinese generator which has what...6 lb. at best
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